GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[trofimus]

The gospel of Matthew we have in our Bibles today was written in Greek, because its synoptic (taken from Mark or from some common source).

There are some historical writings saying that the apostle Matthew wrote some gospel in Hebrew, but its not what you have in your Bibles. Its lost. So any tries to force hebraisms into the gospel of Matthew is futile.

 

[rstrats]

beta,
re: "of course it makes a difference when a day starts !"

I was merely pointing out that 1am is on the same calendar day in both systems, i.e., sundown to sundown or midnight to midnight. Do you disagree, and if so, why?

 

[Hizikyah]

SO I onlt have a english translation of the oldest version, the Tillet version, I can send it to you, the other versions I would have to translate myself other than fragments which have been translated by others, here is a tidbit that has been translated in the 80s.

this is from the shem tob version

View attachment 177422

this is from the Tillet version:

View attachment 177423

notive the difference

verses 23:2-3 are translatedher from shem tob:

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."


Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.


Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.


Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;



as they are key verses. but the rest will take me some time, I can not do it right now, honestly I need to study Hebrew more, I used to know much netter, when I originally got these, but I have not studied henrew in years to be honest.

So this is the oldest version I have Tillet version, different from the Shem Tob version, but it is the only english one I have from the Tillet version:

23:1 Then Yeshu (Jesus) talked with the crowds, and


with his TalÊmidei (Disciples),




23:2 saying, "The Sofre (Scribes) and the PÊrishe


(Pharasee) sit on chair of Mushe (Moses).


23:3 Everything, therefore, that they tell you to


observe, observe and do, but don't practice their


works; for they say, and don't do.


23:4 And they bind heavy burdens, and lay them on


men's shoulders -- but they do not want to support


them with a finger.






23:7 and salutations in the marketplace, and to be


called a Rabbai (Leader) by men.


23:8 But don't you be called 'Rabbai (Leader),' for only


one is our Rabbai (Leader), and all of you are brothers.




23:9 Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.


23:10 Neither be called leaders, for one is your leader,




the MÊshicha (Messiah).




23:11 But he who is greatest among you will be your


servant.

I said oldest I meant newest, the Tillet is the newest version, the Shem Tob is the oldest, it is past my bed time...

 

[Hizikyah]

The gospel of Matthew we have in our Bibles today was written in Greek, because its synoptic (taken from Mark or from some common source).

There are some historical writings saying that the apostle Matthew wrote some gospel in Hebrew, but its not what you have in your Bibles. Its lost. So any tries to force hebraisms into the gospel of Matthew is futile.

I have a microfilm of the oldest Hebrew version that remains, if it is 100% accurate to the original no one knows, but it is without a doubt more accurte than any other know version. It is the only version that has the proper 13 generations from Babylon to Messiah, get you bible out or the greek, all other version say 13 generations but only list 12.

 

[trofimus]

I have a microfilm of the oldest Hebrew version that remains, if it is 100% accurate to the original no one knows, but it is without a doubt more accurte than any other know version. It is the only version that has the proper 13 generations from Babylon to Messiah, get you bible out or the greek, all other version say 13 generations but only list 12.

I do not know what microfilm you have, but "Matthew is using some 90 per cent of the verses in Mark. Much of the text even uses the same words in the Greek language, which would only be possible if the copying were done in the Greek language."

https://christianity.stackexchange....what-language-was-the-book-of-matthew-written

If the apostle Matthew wrote something in Hebrew, Ido not know, probably. But its not what you have in your New Testament, that book was written originally in Greek.

 

[rstrats]

stillness,
re: ""The law is not made for the righteous man but for the lawless."

Which came first, the law or those who don't follow the law?

 

[lightbearer]

because its synoptic (taken from Mark or from some common source).
.

That is subjective. It can not be proven conclusively.

 

[gb9]

That is subjective. It can not be proven conclusively.

just like Christians keeping the Sabbath. can't be proven to be a N.T. command.

 

[trofimus]

That is subjective. It can not be proven conclusively.

Of course it can. If even the wording in Greek is the same, it was taken from the same Greek source and certainly not translated independently from some Hebrew source.

 

[lightbearer]

Of course it can. If even the wording in Greek is the same, it was taken from the same Greek source .

No it can not. There is no way to prove conclusively that Matthew was derived from Mark. It very well could be the other way around. Since Matthew was a Apostle and Mark was not it probably was. But even that is subjective.

 

[trofimus]

No it can not. There is no way to prove conclusively that Matthew was derived from Mark. It very well could be the other way around. Since Matthew was a Apostle and Mark was not it probably was. But even that is subjective.

It can. Just compare the sentences in Greek. If its the same, it was copied. No two people will make the same translation.

 

[lightbearer]

No two people will make the same translation.

Yes they could; through GOD.
And they are not the same. 90% is a stretch.
Got to go for now.
May the LORD bless us in all HIS way: Jesus Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Yes they could; through GOD.
And they are not the same. 90% is a stretch.
Got to go for now.
May the LORD bless us in all HIS way: Jesus Christ.

Yes, sure, God of the gaps. When evidence is against you, God did it.

Of course they are not the same, Matthew has 24 chapters and Mark has only 16. But when you compare some sentences, you can see that Matthew was inspired by Mark, in Greek. And added his own themes. As Luke did.

Matthew was not originally Hebrew, that would look different, like the gospel of John is different, because its independent.

 

[LoveGodForever]

LOVEGODFOREVER
The Sabbath Day starts at Dawn and Ends at Evening on Saturday as Exodus 16 plainly states.
It is just a day to think on and reverence God the Father.

Genesis 1
5, And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Karraster]

I have a microfilm of the oldest Hebrew version that remains, if it is 100% accurate to the original no one knows, but it is without a doubt more accurte than any other know version. It is the only version that has the proper 13 generations from Babylon to Messiah, get you bible out or the greek, all other version say 13 generations but only list 12.

This is the white elephant in the room that no one seems to want to comment on. You can't even prove Jesus is Messiah with the Greek Matthew. What a shame so many cling to their old arguments, for whatever reason,...what is it pride? Because they've written books or something? Written commentaries, perhaps?

 

[MarcR]

This is the white elephant in the room that no one seems to want to comment on. You can't even prove Jesus is Messiah with the Greek Matthew. What a shame so many cling to their old arguments, for whatever reason,...what is it pride? Because they've written books or something? Written commentaries, perhaps?

There is indeed evidence that Matthew did write an Aramaic version of his gospel. However the evidence indicates that the Aramaic version FOLLOWED the Greek.

 

[LoveGodForever]

God's word tells us to put to death those who violate the Sabbath.
Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15. If you claim to obey the Sabbath according to the law of Moses, then you are obligated to put to death, those in your Church who violate it.

Hello JPT,

We are in the NEW COVENANT NOW. In the OLD Covenant under the CIVIL LAWS of Israel according to the book of the law of Moses people openly caught breaking nearly ALL of God's commandments were openly put to death not only the Sabbath.

Civil Law DEATH penalties for the law of Moses

1. Serving other Gods (Deut 13:6-18; 1Sam 26:19)
2. Idolatary (Deut 13:1-10; 17:2-5; 27:15; Deut 7:25-26)
3. Using God's name in vain (Lev 24:10-17 )
4. Breaking God's Sabbath (Exodus 31:14-15; 35:2)
5. Dishonor Parents (Lev 20:9; Deut 21:18-21; Ex 21:17)
6. Murder (Ex 21:12-14)
7. Adultery (Lev 20:10; John 8:5)
8. Stealing (kidnapping) (Exodus 20:6)
9. Lying (Deuteronomy 19:15-21)

We are in the NEW Covenant now. The application of the DEATH penalty for SIN in the NEW covenant takes place at the 2nd coming to all those practiing SIN because they reject the GIFT of God's dear son. (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27; Matthew 7:19; 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Peter 3:10; Matt 25:46; Romans 2:5; 2 Peter 2:1-9; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:12 etc..)

God's LAW is the standard of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS and the penalty for SIN under the CIVIL laws of Moses wa DEATH for the nation of Israel under the OLD Covenant.

Unless you are living in the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant then those laws do not apply to you.

• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to commit adultery?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to lie?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to steal?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to murder anyone?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to use God's name in vain?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to dishonor your parents?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to serve other Gods?
• Are you able under the NEW Covenant to make idols of things?

Now my friend, how many commandments are in God's 10 commandments? (hint; Exodus 34:28; Deuteronomy 4:13; Deuteronomy 10:4)

Now if you answered NO you cannot break God's LAW (10 commandments) in the NEW Covenant you answered correctly.

Just like you could not break any of the other commandments in the Old Covenant because that would be committing SIN because SIN is the transgression of God's LAW and as the scriptures says, if we continue in known unrepentant SIN the WAGES of SIN = DEATH because those practicing SIN have rejected the GIFT of God's dear son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27)

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to just like all the other 10 commandments, we stand guilty before God of committing SIN (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

The CIVIL laws of Moses were to teach God's people that the punishment for SIN was death. This is the same in the NEW Covenant but only carried out at the 2nd coming. It was also a Shadow that is yet to be fulfilled pointing to the 2nd coming (see scriptures above).

So under the NEW Covenant this DEATH sentance is carried out at the 2nd coming against all those who reject God's Word and refuse the GIFT of God's dear son.

....................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

In times of ignorance God winks at but now calls all men every where to REPENT for the KINGDOM of HEAVEN is at HAND (Acts 17:30-31)

Hope this helps..

 

[lightbearer]

Yes, sure, God of the gaps. When evidence is against you, God did it.

Against me? All I said was it could not be considered conclusively one way or another. To say one way or another is rather subjective. Either one could have been copied from the other. Because No one really knows.

You state in your argument that because they are so close in areas one has to been a copied from the other yet there is nothing conclusive to prove this. That is subjective reasoning. Just like when I said that GOD could of inspired them to be written like they were.

To which you reply, "When evidence is against you, God did it." So you don't think God inspired the writers of the New Testament to pen what they did?

 

[lightbearer]

There is indeed evidence that Matthew did write an Aramaic version of his gospel. However the evidence indicates that the Aramaic version FOLLOWED the Greek.

I thought the evidence pointed to it being written in the Hebrew.

 

[Hizikyah]

There is indeed evidence that Matthew did write an Aramaic version of his gospel. However the evidence indicates that the Aramaic version FOLLOWED the Greek.

The Ebionites were a Christian sect that claimed to preserve the original autograph of apostle Matthew in Hebrew. It is quoted often by Epiphanius in the 300s. He said its official title was “The Gospel according to Matthew.” (Epiphanius, Panarion 30, 13, 2-3.)


Apostle John told Papias around 90 A.D. about this book of Matthew: “Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.” (Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. iii. 39, quoting Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord)


Irenaeus likewise says: “Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter I, quoted in Eusebius,
Ecclesiastical History, Book V, Chapter VIII.)


Jerome around 404 A.D. wrote of this too: “The Hebrew [Matthew] itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered.” (Jerome, Lives of Illustrious Men, Chapter III.)


“Matthew collected the oracles (ta logia) in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could.” – Papias (Eusebius, H.E. 3.39.16)


“As having learnt by tradition concerning the four Gospels, which alone are unquestionable in the Church of God under heaven, that first was written according to Matthew, who was once a tax collector but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, who published it for those who from Judaism came to believe, composed as it was in the Hebrew language.” – Origen (Eusebius, H.E. 6.25.4)


Jerome appears convinced the Hebrew Matthew to which the Nazarenes gave him access was the true autograph of Matthew. Jerome notes how it was protected in a private library at Caesarea. He writes in On Illustrious Men ch. III (404 A.D.):


“Matthew, also called Levi, apostle and aforetimes publican, composed a gospel of Christ at first published in Judea in Hebrew for the sake of those of the circumcision who believed, but this was afterwards translated into Greek though by what author is uncertain. The Hebrew itself has been preserved until the present day in the library at Caesarea which Pamphilus so diligently gathered. I have also had the opportunity of having the volume described to me by the Nazarenes of Beroea, a city of Syria, who use it.”


“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews n their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church.” – Irenaeus, Adv. Haer. 3.1.1