Gods will vs mans free will

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
58,788
28,190
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Yep, must be across the pond from you Magenta, posted the last comment 11.23 pm my time. Been a bit under the weather but perking up today and it's lovely to chat with you again, we seem to have a lot in common.

Semi-retired? Thought you might be 40ish but sounds like you might be closer to my age, i'm actually much happier being older, was a real worrier when younger. Much more confident than i was when young too, think we get really cosy being ourselves in late life. Will still take it easy this eve, don't want to make myself poorly again but sure i'll be back to usual in a day or two. Blessings and hugs to you for now and see you soon :)
It struck me with some force a year ago summer time that I was almost seventy. Heh, it sounded so old! I was not yet 69 then, but that has come and gone, now, too. I was laid off with the COVID closures mid March of '20, after turning 65 and getting a cancer diagnosis, went through all my treatments: chemo, radiation, surgery, more chemo, another surgery, months and months and months of wound care, then a hernia repair... when my boss called me back to work! I said yes because otherwise I sit in my chair tinkering with my designs and am not nearly active enough... Hugs to you too and I hope you are feeling much better very soon! Have a cuppa with lemon and honey...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
58,788
28,190
113
Since Job has come up again, I think it's only right that I dispel the argument by Mr,. PT that Job cannot be trusted because Job did not speak rightly of God. And since Job cannot be trusted, then that means the entire book must be suspect in terms of its veracity. The keynote passage that forms the basis to PT's complaint against Job is this one:

Job 38:1-2
38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:


2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

NIV

In other words, Job had no real spiritual knowledge -- according to PT. But is this the right conclusion to draw from this one passage? Or did PT lift this verse out of context, as he is prone to do? Let's see for ourselves. God again speaks to Job:

Job 40:1-8
40:1 The LORD said to Job:


2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"


3 Then Job answered the LORD:

4 "I am unworthy — how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer —
twice, but I will say no more."


6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.


8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

NIV

The bolded verse above provides us with a big clue as to how Job specifically "darkened God's counsel with words without knowledge".
Job's sin, throughout all his discourses, was that he waxed self-righteous, thinking that he did not deserve what God brought upon him. Job wanted to confront God with his complaint precisely to plead his own righteousness before his Creator! But this sin on Job's part doesn't mean that everything Job spoke throughout the book was in error. And now I will prove this point. First Job acknowledges his sin!

Job 42:1-6
42:1 Then Job replied to the LORD:


2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3[You asked,] 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.


4["You said,] 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

NIV

It's extremely noteworthy that, unlike some here on this thread, Job ultimately acknowledged and recognized that all the troubles that came upon him were ultimately part of God's plan for his life. Job did not blame the devil for his afflictions! Job clearly understood who is running the show on the world stage.

Secondly, Job humbled himself by acknowledging and recognizing his own sin -- his sin of self-righteousness (v. 6). This was the specific sin that "darkened the counsel of God". Job thought of himself as being unworthy of the troubles that God had planned for him.

But then God vindicates Job's words twice over before his three friends -- words that had noting to do with Job's opinion about his own righteousness.

Job 42:7, 8c
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has....:8 You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has."
NIV


It's also noteworthy that three times in this passage (vv. 7-9) God refers to Job as his "servant". It's also important to note that God considered Job to be his servant from the very beginning (1:8; 2:3) and Job was still considered to be his servant at the end of his trials. This could hardly be true if Job was this stupid, foolish man who had virtually no true spiritual knowledge of God, which is how PT portrays Job. He implicitly characterized Job as such because Job did not speak in flattering terms about the human race, so Mr. PT lifts a passage totally out of context (38:1-2) in order to discredit virtually everything God's servant said.

Job 38:36 - Job 32:8 - Job 12:13
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .:)