Gods will vs mans free will

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,027
222
63
There just might be an important object lesson to be learned from this Psalm by all who insist on finding ways for fallen man to share in God's glory. The Psalmist reflects on God's/Israelites' conquest of the Land. Guess who gets left out in the cold credit wise? And since the mighty, valiant, armed-to-the-teeth flesh and blood warriors get tossed under the bus (in a manner of speaking), then how much more should the unarmed, ill-equipped Israelites whom God rescued from Pharaoh deserve the same treatment?

Ps 44:1-8
44:1 For the director of music. Of the Sons of Korah. A maskil.

1 We have heard with our ears, O God;our fathers have told us what you did in their days,in days long ago. 2 With your hand you drove out the nations and planted our fathers;you crushed the peoples and made our fathers flourish. 3 It was not by their sword that they won the land,nor did their arm bring them victory;it was your right hand, your arm, and the light of your face, for you loved them.
4 You are my King and my God,who decrees victories for Jacob. 5 Through you we push back our enemies;through your name we trample our foes. 6 I do not trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; 7 but you give us victory over our enemies,you put our adversaries to shame. 8 In God we make our boast all day long,and we will praise your name forever.
NIV
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,324
427
83
If Christ's death is efficacious for all then each and every person in the world is saved. No one has anything to worry about on Judgment Day; for Christ's dying for all means he actually saves all. :rolleyes:
No. You are confusing atonement with full salvation. Experiencing perfectly one step of a multi-step process does not assure one that the entire process will be completed. I dare say that even you would not make that argument regarding any other process in life, that taking one step assures that completion will be achieved. You are applying this assertion only in theology and only to soteriology. Who has been blindng your mind so that you cannot see that, and humble yourself to bring your perspective on atonement and salvation into line with how you perceive every other process in the rest of your life?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,324
427
83
Sure does seem that way. Crickets since I asked for some scripture to back up their "claim". Which I don't really like saying claim because they really make no definitive statements or case, they just like to tear down what others say that they disagree with, yet never build a case for their views.

How can you ask for "any sculpture that says we are born slaves of sin", then seem to imply that we are born sinless. Really? I always thought that being born fallen was Christian 101. That because of the fall of Adam we are ALL born into the fallen state, with no hope of ever being able to save ourselves from it. So it kind of baffles me to find people disagreeing with this fact, demanding scripture that says these things a specific way while never even offering a single scripture that would back up the view they suggest, yet don't seem to really proclaim with confidence, that men are born sinless, that we start life in 100% tip top shape as we were created to be. Not one. So fast to jump in and teach others why they're wrong, but can't be bothered to teach why you're right. Just another perspective to think about.
Romans 9 says that the wrestling Esau and Jacob in the womb had not yet done nothing either good or evil. Therefore, they were neither do-gooders nor sinners. They were innocent. However, they were both saints, i.e. set apart for God's use once born. Now God does not automatically degenerate an innocent child, one who has done no good or evil in the womb, into a baby who automatically does evil once the umbilical cord is cut. A born-innocent child eventually does go astray from what it were in the womb, telling lies, once it understands via its conscience that lying is wrong and yet chooses to do so anyway. But both in the womb and after its birth God intends a child to learn to walk with Him and serve Him as it matures. It is set apart by God for God's service.

So, Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

And, Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb (M-ReKheM, not L-ReKheM) : they go astray from the belly (M-BeTeN, not L-BeTeN), speaking lies. (Note: the prepositional prefix is M- i.e. from; not L- i.e. at/for: it does not say "at the womb/belly (L-ReKhem/ L-BeTeN)", but "from/since the womb" (M-ReKhem/ M-BeTeN), disprove your view. We are not conceived or born sinners/ evil-doers/ wicked. We are born innocent saints. We become guilty sinners when we first sin.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
625
303
63
Everywhere in scripture God alone is given the credit for delivering the ancient Israelites from their bondage to Pharaoh.
Scripture says nothing about the Israelites being inanimate wind-up toys. They complied with His deliverance.

God is the savior of Gentiles (all men), especially those who believe.
It doesn't say "Gentiles". It says: ... God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Tim 4:10 (KJV)