Grace Movement

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#41
Yes of course I have and I understand what you posted but works are not salvation. Please show me where the Bible states works guarantee salvation.

The Book...shall we just address that as the Bible? I don't appreciate the 'fooled by adamant Igno rants' you ascribe to those who state that salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Tone it down.

Grabbing a small portion of scripture and then declaring people who understand the passage better then you, apparently, does not make a class of Igno ranters. This forum is not filled with Igno ranters when they declare that works are not salvation.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3

Kindly try to remember that I never said Christians should do no works. I say what scripture states and you can read that above from Romans 3 and there are many many scriptures that attest to the exact same thing. The law, was the most inclusive rendering of laws needing to be obeyed which indicated obedience by WORKS. It saved on one.

The works that are meant as Christian works are only available through faith in Christ. One follows the other. What James is actually saying, is that true Christian works will manifest through the believer if their faith is genuine.
Where have I declared that salvation is gained by works.

Sorry, but all are ignorant, including myself, for none know all of the Word as does God Who is the Word. If it bothers you, I am afraid you do not know what is said even printed before your eyes.

No man is saved by works except by the blood of the Lamb of God. However if a man receives Him and then ignores the works He has given us all, he will have no wite garment when it comes to our being raised to His glory. Do not be so thin skined and except the truth of the Word.

Faith without works is DEAD, useless.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,555
649
113
#42
As the Falling away(apostasy, rebellion) IS HERE, those that believe that unfruitful branches(in Him) are NOT thrown into the fire(Hell), teach those who are unfruitful not to worry about their unfruitfulness that they are secure. This is false doctrine, & leading unknowing souls to Hell.
There are no branches in Him that were unsaved to begin with. It is their unfruitfulness that seals their doom.
Fallen man, already fallen by the curse of sin to the max, can't fall any further. Those that fall are those who have been elevated by God's grace to the sons of God.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#43
Where have I declared that salvation is gained by works.

Sorry, but all are ignorant, including myself, for none know all of the Word as does God Who is the Word. If it bothers you, I am afraid you do not know what is said even printed before your eyes.

No man is saved by works except by the blood of the Lamb of God. However if a man receives Him and then ignores the works He has given us all, he will have no wite garment when it comes to our being raised to His glory. Do not be so thin skined and except the truth of the Word.

Faith without works is DEAD, useless.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you:If one does not do works after being saved, he is an ingrate and not worthy, wearing filthy garments to to the Wedding............ he is thrown into the outer darkness.

no works = no salvation...your words provided by someone who read them :sleep:
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#44
Sorry, but all are ignorant, including myself, for none know all of the Word as does God Who is the Word. If it bothers you, I am afraid you do not know what is said even printed before your eyes.
backpeddling to the max

even the world knows you should say what you mean and mean what you say

apparently, that is foreign to you

I knew you would shriek your innocence if I actually called you on your comments (which is why I have not before responded to one of your posts)

what bothers me, what I actually find offensive, are people who cannot defend what they wrote so they try to make it seem the other person is somehow a dreadful sinner who does not follow Christ or read/study the Bible

so predictable zzzzzzzzzzz
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#45
Where have I declared that salvation is gained by works.

Sorry, but all are ignorant, including myself, for none know all of the Word as does God Who is the Word. If it bothers you, I am afraid you do not know what is said even printed before your eyes.

No man is saved by works except by the blood of the Lamb of God. However if a man receives Him and then ignores the works He has given us all, he will have no wite garment when it comes to our being raised to His glory. Do not be so thin skined and except the truth of the Word.

Faith without works is DEAD, useless.
what are the works? do you do them?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#46
what are the works? do you do them?
Now you are attmpting to make me fall into temptation of my own ego.
If I be doing so by replying, I pray God forgive me.
We are given first of all to wait upon our most Beloved Savior. Prayer is also our due, and all who believe are always in prayer. Offering in our action the Love of our Holy Father to all, friend and foe alike. Anything given us in the sharing of the Word and shining God's light through us.
His works are simple, bu not obvious to the unbeliever.
When we follow Jesus Yeshua, He will guide us to works of which we have never heard, yet they are recognized by Him
Praise God for He is worthy, not we. May God fill you with His Love, wisdom understanding and knowledge, as I beg also for myself. All love in Jesus Yeshua...
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,555
649
113
#47
Eph 2: 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Guess what happens when we refuse to do what God prepared for us to do?
That branch gets thrown in the fire(hell)
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#48
Now you are attmpting to make me fall into temptation of my own ego.
If I be doing so by replying, I pray God forgive me.
We are given first of all to wait upon our most Beloved Savior. Prayer is also our due, and all who believe are always in prayer. Offering in our action the Love of our Holy Father to all, friend and foe alike. Anything given us in the sharing of the Word and shining God's light through us.
His works are simple, bu not obvious to the unbeliever.
When we follow Jesus Yeshua, He will guide us to works of which we have never heard, yet they are recognized by Him
Praise God for He is worthy, not we. May God fill you with His Love, wisdom understanding and knowledge, as I beg also for myself. All love in Jesus Yeshua...
I'm not making you do anything. But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. James 1:14

I asked what the works are. Scripture tell us and it does not involve your ego being tempted. The Bible says nothing about works that are unknown.

smh
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#49
Eph 2: 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Guess what happens when we refuse to do what God prepared for us to do?
That branch gets thrown in the fire(hell)
so what are the works we are created to do? some of you seem so eager to throw people into hell
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#50
I have already afforded Nikki7 just a few of the works our Father gives us,, but = it seems it has been overlooked. i supplied the most common in which most who believe automatically execute, however if the more known ones need be mentioned, begin with prophets, healing in the name of Jesus Yeshua, the gift of knowledge, etc.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
#51
I have already afforded Nikki7 just a few of the works our Father gives us,, but = it seems it has been overlooked. i supplied the most common in which most who believe automatically execute, however if the more known ones need be mentioned, begin with prophets, healing in the name of Jesus Yeshua, the gift of knowledge, etc.
Spiritual gifts are only one aspect of good works. There are dozens of other Christian good works that can and should be done, especially the sharing and propagation of the Gospel, and the free distribution of Bibles to many. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

But all this NOT to earn or maintain salvation. Simply to do what God commands and expects. Good works flow from the prompting of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it is "God who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". So any genuine believer will AUTOMATICALLY do good works (Eph 2:10).
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,408
6,693
113
#52
Spiritual gifts are only one aspect of good works. There are dozens of other Christian good works that can and should be done, especially the sharing and propagation of the Gospel, and the free distribution of Bibles to many. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

But all this NOT to earn or maintain salvation. Simply to do what God commands and expects. Good works flow from the prompting of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it is "God who worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure". So any genuine believer will AUTOMATICALLY do good works (Eph 2:10).
Gee, I guess you only read some of the posts I have posted in this thread. This is how many study, reading only some here and some there. I am also guilty of this at times, but only when the merit has been proven lacking.

I have already afforded Nikki7 just a few of the works our Father gives us,,
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,111
2,143
113
#53
That's the thing about being good, we risk thinking, like the rich young ruler, that we are good enough. But he went away when Jesus told him, "One thing you lack" even as the man had acquired much. Was this insight given that this man was one thing away from being perfect? I ask this rhetorically to consider the possibility this man was that close to perfect if it his claim was true that "all these I have kept since my youth."
Did the man come to Jesus seeking a 'good name'? He had offered reason why he thought he was "good" anyway. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes says that is more desirable than great riches and favor is better than silver and gold, and the man went away sad, because he had great riches.
Why didn't he go away happy because he had great riches and preferred to keep them? Why couldn't the man bring himself to answer Jesus, "No, thank you, I'm good." :unsure:?
 

tylerbones1313

Active member
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#54
The Grace Movement (By: Frederick E. Lewis –
http://www.biblicaladvancedbasics.com)

The Grace Movement began in the 1930’s during the time of recovery of the
fourth truth of the distinctive message and ministry of the Apostle Paul via
John C. O'Hair, Charles F. Baker, Cornelius R. Stam, et al. Here is a tracing of
the steps that led to this Movement.

In II Timothy 1:15 the Apostle Paul writes:

“This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned​
away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”​

It was at that time that the distinctive message and ministry of the Apostle
Paul began to be lost. This plunged the Christian church into a downward spiral
that resulted in the further loss of:

the truth of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church the body of Christ; the
difference between Israel and the body of Christ; and the truth of justification
by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Over twenty years earlier Luke wrote in Acts 13:39 a quotation from a sermon
by the Apostle Paul concerning justification:

“And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things​
from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”​

Some historians have concluded that the loss of these truths contributed in
a major way to bringing in the historical period called the dark ages. It is
suggested by the chart below that these truths were lost in a particular order
and that they were recovered in reverse order.
---------------
(Grace Bible College, TH 414 – (adapted excerpt from) Studies in Dispensational
Theology, T. F. Conklin, Course Prof., Spring 1994) -

- Pauline Truths Lost (Order of Loss):​

First: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul - II Timothy 1:15

Second: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ

Third: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ

Fourth: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone - Acts 13:39

Pauline Truths Recovered (Order of Recovery)​

First: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone Recovered via Protestant
Reformation in the 16th Century via Luther, et al

Second: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ
Recovered in the 1800's via John Nelson Darby, Ethelbert William Bullinger,
Sir Robert Anderson, et al

Third: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ Recovered
in the 19th Century via John Nelson Darby and included by C.I. Scofield in his
Reference Bible, published 1909

Fourth: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul Recovered from
the middle 1900’s via John C. O'Hair, Charles F. Baker, Cornelius R. Stam, et al
----------------
During this entire process of loss and recovery of these truths, we saw the
formation of most all of the over 400 denominations that can be observed
today. The total revelation, given to the Apostle Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ,
during Paul’s ministry of approximately thirty years, is referred to as The Mystery.

A key point in understanding The Mystery is that God began a new program at
that time to deal with His creation. The former program, called the prophetic
program or the kingdom, concerned the Jews first, was prophesied by the
prophets, had an earthly hope and calling, and involved the Twelve Apostles.

This prophetic or kingdom program will be resumed after the current program
has run its course at the rapture of the Body of Christ. The current program,
called The Mystery, concerns the Jews and Gentiles alike, was not forecast in
the prophetic Scriptures; it was hid in God, has a heavenly hope and calling,
and involves One Apostle, Paul.

Understanding The Mystery makes it possible to understand that there are
no denominations in the Bible and each current denomination is unique
based upon which parts of the previous program are combined with the
current program. All of the differences of Bible interpretation can be linked
to this improper combining of two separate programs of God. A basic tool
then would be to divide the Bible into the two parts.

The chart below will identify which books of the Bible are written about​
which program. (Note, the books of Acts and Hebrews are transitional from​
one program to the other.)​

View attachment 257138

In II Timothy 2:15 we read:

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that​
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing The Word Of Truth.”​

It is this principle of right division that makes it possible to understand the
Bible, amid all the denominational confusion. Remember what we read in
I Corinthians 14:33:

“For God is not the author of confusion, but of​
peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”​
If Satan wants to confuse the body of Christ (and you better believe he does)
what better way than to try to keep the members arguing over all the
denominational differences that have accumulated over the years.

I’ve heard it said that Romans 16:25: “...the preaching of Jesus Christ, According to
The Revelation of The Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,”
is
Satan’s worst nightmare and I believe this to be accurate.

There is a passage in I Corinthians that points out that the “princes of this world”
(or rulers, which would include physical as well as spiritual), would have done
differently had they known the significance of the Cross: I Corinthians 2:7,8:

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a Mystery, even the hidden​
wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they​
known it, they would not have crucified The Lord Of Glory.”​

A summary of the major points contained within the beliefs of the
Grace Movement is as follows:

Mid-Acts Dispensational System of Bible Interpretation​
Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ​
Principle of Right Division (Dividing Prophecy from Mystery)​
Kingdom Gospel Differentiated from Gospel of the Grace of God​
Futurist Position for Understanding the Book of Revelation​
Premillennial View of the Future Earthly Kingdom​
Spiritual Baptism by the Holy Spirit of all Believers​
Observance of the Lord’s Supper “Till He Come”​
Eternal Security of Believers in the Body of Christ​

------------------
Borrowed from Grace Movement PDF

Essentially, this is my own "statement of faith" - one minor Difference:

"Justification By Grace Through faith, in Christ, Alone."​

Amen.
Wow that was super Powerful and informative. Praise be to God.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#55
The Grace Movement (By: Frederick E. Lewis –
http://www.biblicaladvancedbasics.com)

The Grace Movement began in the 1930’s during the time of recovery of the
fourth truth of the distinctive message and ministry of the Apostle Paul via
John C. O'Hair, Charles F. Baker, Cornelius R. Stam, et al. Here is a tracing of
the steps that led to this Movement.

In II Timothy 1:15 the Apostle Paul writes:

“This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned​
away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”​

It was at that time that the distinctive message and ministry of the Apostle
Paul began to be lost. This plunged the Christian church into a downward spiral
that resulted in the further loss of:

the truth of the pre-tribulational rapture of the church the body of Christ; the
difference between Israel and the body of Christ; and the truth of justification
by faith alone, in Christ alone.

Over twenty years earlier Luke wrote in Acts 13:39 a quotation from a sermon
by the Apostle Paul concerning justification:

“And by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things​
from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”​

Some historians have concluded that the loss of these truths contributed in
a major way to bringing in the historical period called the dark ages. It is
suggested by the chart below that these truths were lost in a particular order
and that they were recovered in reverse order.
---------------
(Grace Bible College, TH 414 – (adapted excerpt from) Studies in Dispensational
Theology, T. F. Conklin, Course Prof., Spring 1994) -

- Pauline Truths Lost (Order of Loss):​

First: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul - II Timothy 1:15

Second: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ

Third: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ

Fourth: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone - Acts 13:39

Pauline Truths Recovered (Order of Recovery)​

First: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone Recovered via Protestant
Reformation in the 16th Century via Luther, et al

Second: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ
Recovered in the 1800's via John Nelson Darby, Ethelbert William Bullinger,
Sir Robert Anderson, et al

Third: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ Recovered
in the 19th Century via John Nelson Darby and included by C.I. Scofield in his
Reference Bible, published 1909

Fourth: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul Recovered from
the middle 1900’s via John C. O'Hair, Charles F. Baker, Cornelius R. Stam, et al
----------------
During this entire process of loss and recovery of these truths, we saw the
formation of most all of the over 400 denominations that can be observed
today. The total revelation, given to the Apostle Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ,
during Paul’s ministry of approximately thirty years, is referred to as The Mystery.

A key point in understanding The Mystery is that God began a new program at
that time to deal with His creation. The former program, called the prophetic
program or the kingdom, concerned the Jews first, was prophesied by the
prophets, had an earthly hope and calling, and involved the Twelve Apostles.

This prophetic or kingdom program will be resumed after the current program
has run its course at the rapture of the Body of Christ. The current program,
called The Mystery, concerns the Jews and Gentiles alike, was not forecast in
the prophetic Scriptures; it was hid in God, has a heavenly hope and calling,
and involves One Apostle, Paul.

Understanding The Mystery makes it possible to understand that there are
no denominations in the Bible and each current denomination is unique
based upon which parts of the previous program are combined with the
current program. All of the differences of Bible interpretation can be linked
to this improper combining of two separate programs of God. A basic tool
then would be to divide the Bible into the two parts.

The chart below will identify which books of the Bible are written about​
which program. (Note, the books of Acts and Hebrews are transitional from​
one program to the other.)​

View attachment 257138

In II Timothy 2:15 we read:

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that​
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing The Word Of Truth.”​

It is this principle of right division that makes it possible to understand the
Bible, amid all the denominational confusion. Remember what we read in
I Corinthians 14:33:

“For God is not the author of confusion, but of​
peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”​
If Satan wants to confuse the body of Christ (and you better believe he does)
what better way than to try to keep the members arguing over all the
denominational differences that have accumulated over the years.

I’ve heard it said that Romans 16:25: “...the preaching of Jesus Christ, According to
The Revelation of The Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,”
is
Satan’s worst nightmare and I believe this to be accurate.

There is a passage in I Corinthians that points out that the “princes of this world”
(or rulers, which would include physical as well as spiritual), would have done
differently had they known the significance of the Cross: I Corinthians 2:7,8:

“But we speak the wisdom of God in a Mystery, even the hidden​
wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they​
known it, they would not have crucified The Lord Of Glory.”​

A summary of the major points contained within the beliefs of the
Grace Movement is as follows:

Mid-Acts Dispensational System of Bible Interpretation​
Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ​
Principle of Right Division (Dividing Prophecy from Mystery)​
Kingdom Gospel Differentiated from Gospel of the Grace of God​
Futurist Position for Understanding the Book of Revelation​
Premillennial View of the Future Earthly Kingdom​
Spiritual Baptism by the Holy Spirit of all Believers​
Observance of the Lord’s Supper “Till He Come”​
Eternal Security of Believers in the Body of Christ​

------------------
Borrowed from Grace Movement PDF

Essentially, this is my own "statement of faith" - one minor Difference:

"Justification By Grace Through faith, in Christ, Alone."​

Amen.
Denominationalism is nothing but religion. And we know what Christ thought about the religious leaders of His day. I don't belong to a religion I belong to Christ so you see not religion but a relationship with Christ and Christ alone. Wonderful work. Thanks so much.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,842
6,474
113
62
#56
That's the thing about being good, we risk thinking, like the rich young ruler, that we are good enough. But he went away when Jesus told him, "One thing you lack" even as the man had acquired much. Was this insight given that this man was one thing away from being perfect? I ask this rhetorically to consider the possibility this man was that close to perfect if it his claim was true that "all these I have kept since my youth."
Did the man come to Jesus seeking a 'good name'? He had offered reason why he thought he was "good" anyway. Proverbs and Ecclesiastes says that is more desirable than great riches and favor is better than silver and gold, and the man went away sad, because he had great riches.
Why didn't he go away happy because he had great riches and preferred to keep them? Why couldn't the man bring himself to answer Jesus, "No, thank you, I'm good." :unsure:?
Some suggest that he was under conviction. He must have been in quite the quandry...knowing something wasn't right but believing himself to be blameless before God. Jesus didn't argue with him. Instead, He made a request of him that would allow him to come to the correct conclusion himself. Chances are that he did get saved as it says Jesus loved him. But that's speculation.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#57
The Grace Movement is a mixture of truth and error. Any Christian group which rejects the proper Christian baptism of believers after salvation, and by immersion, is suspect. They have absolutely no authority to promote such error.
I agree. I think the real mix-up is, most proponents of the Grace Movent, see baptism in water in Jesus name as works and not a command. We are to obey the laws of God and we are commanded to be baptized. If we know to do good and do it not to us it is sin.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,842
6,474
113
62
#58
I agree. I think the real mix-up is, most proponents of the Grace Movent, see baptism in water in Jesus name as works and not a command. We are to obey the laws of God and we are commanded to be baptized. If we know to do good and do it not to us it is sin.
By that logic, no command is a work.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#59
By that logic, no command is a work.
Let me try to explain it this way.

According to the Bible, water baptism is a command of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus says, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This passage is clear that Jesus commanded His followers to baptize those who believe in Him. Baptism is a way for us to publicly declare our faith in Jesus and our commitment to following Him. It is also a way for us to symbolically die to our old selves and be raised to new life in Christ.

While water baptism is a command of Jesus, it is not a work that we can do to earn our salvation. Salvation is a gift from God that is received through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Baptism is a way for us to express our gratitude for God's gift of salvation and to publicly identify ourselves as followers of Christ.
 
May 1, 2022
565
156
43
#60
By that logic, no command is a work.
Sometimes I can be very poor at explaining myself. So I ask "Dear Lord help me to explain your Words with truth and humbleness of Heart." I am after all only human, but by the grace of God and Help of the Holy Ghost moving through me my writing can touch hearts. "Please dear God let me not ere"