Grace through faith.

[Grandpa]

Why is being "faithful" (ie. through faith) complicating God's promises?

Was Abraham complicating things when he "obeyed; and he went out" (Heb 11:8)?

Was Noah's "by faith...moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) complicating things with God?

Were either of them taking pride in God's provision?


To contend that "one must do" is anathema today with so many. Are people that easily deceived?

When one asks a question, "does a murderer have to forsake murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them?" Is it really that difficult to say YES, THEY MUST STOP.

Is it really that difficult to understand that repentance is where we change our minds and thus stop rebelling against God, instead of "not going out" we have a change of mind and "go out," instead of "not building our ark" we have a change of mind and "build our ark." Instead of despising what "grace teaches" we change our mind and "yield to what grace teaches."

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Oh boy....

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The simplicity that is in Christ. Not of works, lest any boast...

 

[Skinski7]

Oh boy....

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

The simplicity that is in Christ. Not of works, lest any boast...

Have you ever read the entire passage?

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Joe 2:6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
Joe 2:7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
Joe 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
Joe 2:9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
Joe 2:22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
Joe 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

How is it that you can honestly believe that one can rend their heart to the Lord and call upon His name whilst still remaining defiant in rebellion?

It is very easy to isolate and proof text a passage completely out of its context in an attempt to imply that the rebellion does not have to cease as one approaches God seeking reconciliation.

The Bible teaches this...

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.


In other words, God will not be mocked!

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

 

[pickles]

Why is being "faithful" (ie. through faith) complicating God's promises?

Was Abraham complicating things when he "obeyed; and he went out" (Heb 11:8)?

Was Noah's "by faith...moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) complicating things with God?


Were either of them taking pride in God's provision?


To contend that "one must do" is anathema today with so many. Are people that easily deceived?

When one asks a question, "does a murderer have to forsake murdering people BEFORE God will forgive them?" Is it really that difficult to say YES, THEY MUST STOP.

Is it really that difficult to understand that repentance is where we change our minds and thus stop rebelling against God, instead of "not going out" we have a change of mind and "go out," instead of "not building our ark" we have a change of mind and "build our ark." Instead of despising what "grace teaches" we change our mind and "yield to what grace teaches."

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Skinski, God bless you.
But your responce is an example of how we make assumptions and create the stumbleing blocks ourselves.
You assumed because I speak to grace as being our salvation that I reject obedience or do not see its importance, simply because I did not speak to it or make a long list of, subject to this.
You said yourself God's promises right?
To often we see obedience as how we earn salvation, when its all about what we recieve.
Does the branch grow with out the vine?
Jesus said, I do not give as the world gives, and it is in this that we recieve understanding to all God's gifts.
Jesus paid the price for salvation, for all that are God's gifts to us.
The Holy Spirit brings all these gifts.
Obedience is His gift, faith is His gift, peace is His gift, rightousness is Gods gift, along with everything we need to grow in Jesus's Spirit.
Obedience is not about earning salvation, its a gift given and recieved so we will grow and live salvation.
BY faith, these gifts are given, because they are part of salvation, we choose to recieve these gifts, or reject them.
Its not about earning, its all about recieving!
Consider, does the branch grow fruit on its own? No. for it needs the vine to recieve all needed to bare fruit.
The gift is given, the question is, do we recieive it.
Read the scriptures and test, consider the understanding Ive spoken to here and test in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
Look to all spoken here, and see, that we do not earn, we recieve with love, all God gives to us in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
It is by faith we see and walk, and by grace we are saved and recieve, for everything is God's gift to us and work in us, in Jesus bringing salvation.
Its not about earning, its all about recieiving!
God bless you Skinski, in Jesus.

God bless
pickles

In Jesus

 

[Grandpa]

How is it that you can honestly believe that one can rend their heart to the Lord and call upon His name whilst still remaining defiant in rebellion?

It is very easy to isolate and proof text a passage completely out of its context in an attempt to imply that the rebellion does not have to cease as one approaches God seeking reconciliation.

Why would a person rend their heart to the Lord in the first place? Its not because they have ceased all rebellion. Its because they have found themselves to be rebellious before Him. That is why a person Calls out to Him. So that the Saviour can save them from that situation.

That's why we need a Saviour.

Who saves us? Who cleanses us? Who sanctifies us? Who justifies us? Who causes us to walk in paths of Righteousness?

Ephesians 2:4-9
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 1:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


How awesome is that last verse?!!!!

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski, God bless you.
But your responce is an example of how we make assumptions and create the stumbleing blocks ourselves. When people cannot clearly state that a murderer must cease murdering or that a child molester must cease molesting children it is PLAINLY EVIDENT that they believe one can still be engaged in those sins and yet be in a justified state before God at the very same time.
You assumed because I speak to grace as being our salvation that I reject obedience or do not see its importance, simply because I did not speak to it or make a long list of, subject to this. Not at all. I reject "obedience being a fruit of salvation which occurs SOME TIME LATER whereby it is taught that salvation is a POSITIONAL STATE that occurs BEFORE the rebellion ceases." Thus it is taught that a Christian can be saved and yet inwardly defiled AT THE SAME TIME.

Many of the wolves in sheeps clothing preach a form of obedience but they DISCONNECT obedience (or yielding to God) as being a NECESSARY ASPECT in order that genuine salvation takes place. In other words they teach that obedience is something that occurs LATER and is a RESULT of salvation as opposed to being a CONDITION OF SALVATION. That is a huge difference.

When one teaches that one can be in a saved state and yet in a state of rebellion to God AT THE SAME TIME then doesn't that mean that salvation is PURELY POSITIONAL? Doesn't that mean that one CAN BE double minded and serve two masters? Doesn't that mean that one CAN SIN and not surely die? Doesn't that mean that all the warning in the Bible to depart from iniquity, to not sow to the flesh, to be pure and blameless are OPTIONAL?

You said yourself God's promises right?
To often we see obedience as how we earn salvation, when its all about what we recieve. It is not ALL ABOUT what we receive. The Bible clearly teaches a methodology of HOW one receives. Jesus preached REPENTANCE and DOING. James taught that one is to LAY ASIDE ALL FILTHINESS AND SUPERFLUITY OF NAUGHTINESS. Yet today a "receive Jesus" doctrine is taught which has totally removed the methodology, the conditions of genuine faith and repentance have been thrown out the window.
Does the branch grow with out the vine? Over and over in my posts I write that one must ABIDE IN THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST in order to bear fruit yet when I speak of "forsaking rebellion to God in repentance" people make the implication that I am teaching that one can grow outside of the vine.

Forsaking rebellion to God in repentance IS NOT saving oneself. Forsaking rebellion in repentance IS NOT teaching a branch grows outside the vine. Forsaking rebellion in repentance is simply teaching that the rebellion to God MUST CEASE in order that one ABIDE IN CHRIST. It is very simple.

Jesus said, I do not give as the world gives, and it is in this that we recieve understanding to all God's gifts. Yet what does the Bible teach about receiving?

I wrote an article on that very subject. One DOES NOT receive Jesus Christ IN A STATE OF REBELLION.

http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2012/01/as-many-as-received-him-mechanic-of.html

Receiving and rejecting are OPPOSITES.

The reason Jesus preached repentance is because He knew that one cannot receive God in a state of unrepentance (rebellion). The rebellion to God MUST CEASE.

The implanted word within cannot be received and at the very same time rejected which is why Jesus taught that YOU CANNOT serve two masters. The whole body will be full of light ONLY if the eye is single.

Yet what does modern theology teach? It teaches that you CAN serve two masters, that you CAN serve sin and God at the same time. It teaches that your eye does not have to be single but can be fixated on Christ AND the world at the same time.



Jesus paid the price for salvation, for all that are God's gifts to us. The gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL being that it is THROUGH Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23). In other words it is not something one just lays "claim to" part from what "one does." One MUST deny themselves, pick up their cross and ABIDE IN THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN JESUS CHRIST. Thus one must WALK after the Spirit as opposed to walking after the flesh.

The Holy Spirit brings all these gifts. So you must believe that one gets saved in a state of rebellion, receives the Holy Spirit and THEN obedience can occur.

Obedience is His gift, faith is His gift, peace is His gift, rightousness is Gods gift, along with everything we need to grow in Jesus's Spirit. The Bible teaches this...

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Yet are you not saying that one receives the Holy Ghost FIRST and then obedience comes? Do you really believe that a genuine repentance experience still leaves one in willful opposition to God? Think about that question.

I don't deny that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Not do I deny that righteousness is via the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. It all starts with God yet that does not negate that the rebellion to God (refusal to yield) must cease BEFORE salvation of the soul can take place. A heart in rebellion cannot be purified, it is through obedience to the truth by the Spirit that the heart is purified and it is the pure in heart that will see God, not those whom remain defiled.

Obedience is not about earning salvation, its a gift given and recieved so we will grow and live salvation. Again there are clear CONDTIONS, ie. a methodology of HOW one receives. One does not simply "receive Jesus" without approaching God with a "true heart." God is not into lip service, He wants HEART SERVICE. Any individual in rebellion to God has not yielded their heart to Christ, to teach that they have is to deceive and promote iniquity.
BY faith, these gifts are given, because they are part of salvation, we choose to recieve these gifts, or reject them.
Its not about earning, its all about recieving! Faith is FAITHFULNESS, faith is not rebellion to God. God is the author of the salvation of those whom obey Him (Heb 5:9) not those who remain in rebellion. One cannot "work together" (2Cor 6:1) with God if one refuses to be a doer of His will (Mat 7:21).
Consider, does the branch grow fruit on its own? No. for it needs the vine to recieve all needed to bare fruit. Which is why James wrote this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

and Jesus said this...

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Do you believe what Jesus taught? KEEPING the commandments of Jesus is KEY to having Him manifest Himself to you.

The gift is given, the question is, do we recieive it. The question is HOW DO YOU RECEIVE IT.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.



Do you believe that one must "lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness"? Does one have to be a "doer of the word"?

Does a child molester have to stop molesting children in order to receive the implanted word?

Does a murderer have to stop murdering people in order to receive the implanted word?

Or do child molesters, murderers, thieves, liars, cheats, fornicators, adulterers, porn watchers, NOT have to lay aside their wickedness?

Read the scriptures and test, consider the understanding Ive spoken to here and test in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.

Look to all spoken here, and see, that we do not earn, we recieve with love, all God gives to us in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh. Obedience to God is not about "earning salvation" so why bring it up?

Are you not dancing around the themes I raise by continually repusiating my words in a context of "earning salvation." I have never claimed we "merit the grace of God." No, it is freely given, but I do claim that one must YIELD TO GOD in order that the grace of God be effectual to the saving of the soul. If one refuses to yield then the grace that brings salvation is received to no effect.

It is by faith we see and walk, and by grace we are saved and recieve, for everything is God's gift to us and work in us, in Jesus bringing salvation. Yet salvation is wrought through ABIDING IN Jesus Christ and one does not abide IN Christ and abide in rebellion at the same time.
Its not about earning, its all about recieiving! It's about being a DOER of the word and not a hearer only for one CANNOT RECEIVE unless stops rejecting.

God bless you Skinski, in Jesus.

God bless
pickles

In Jesus

Pickles,

There are responses in this thread which clearly imply that the cessation of rebellion in repentance is a false teaching. It is in light of this very contention that the question of "does a murderer have to stop murdering BEFORE God will forgive them" is AVOIDED.

The common premise of Christian orthodoxy in the present day is a SAVED IN SINS Gospel. In other words people have genuinely come to hold the view that that salvation is purely positional in application and can exist WHILST one is still in rebellion to God.

Thus those who hold to this theology will defend that one can indeed sin and not surely die whilst they deny that heart purity is an essential component of genuine salvation.

This "saved in sins" message is leading MILLIONS of people to perdition and there are very few who speak against it.

 

[RedTent]

Pickles,

There are responses in this thread which clearly imply that the cessation of rebellion in repentance is a false teaching. It is in light of this very contention that the question of "does a murderer have to stop murdering BEFORE God will forgive them" is AVOIDED.

The common premise of Christian orthodoxy in the present day is a SAVED IN SINS Gospel. In other words people have genuinely come to hold the view that that salvation is purely positional in application and can exist WHILST one is still in rebellion to God.

Thus those who hold to this theology will defend that one can indeed sin and not surely die whilst they deny that heart purity is an essential component of genuine salvation.

This "saved in sins" message is leading MILLIONS of people to perdition and there are very few who speak against it.

I don't think that Pickles is saying anything like "saved in sin" because she is putting grace first. God, loving God with all your heart, accepting all Christ does for us IS first, everything else radiates from that.

But I agree, people are not seeing sin as God sees it. If our eyes are filled with God, part of that is seeing sin in the correct perspective, and I have heard lots of taking it out of context. I shudder when I hear "not under sin but grace", that beautiful miraculous truth used to say they don't have to deal with sin. God tells us that way that He will forgive and protect us from sin meaning death for us, but in other scripture he tells us that repentance is part of that and God expects us to know that for He has spoken it.

 

[Skinski7]

I don't think that Pickles is saying anything like "saved in sin" because she is putting grace first. God, loving God with all your heart, accepting all Christ does for us IS first, everything else radiates from that.

But I agree, people are not seeing sin as God sees it. If our eyes are filled with God, part of that is seeing sin in the correct perspective, and I have heard lots of taking it out of context. I shudder when I hear "not under sin but grace", that beautiful miraculous truth used to say they don't have to deal with sin. God tells us that way that He will forgive and protect us from sin meaning death for us, but in other scripture he tells us that repentance is part of that and God expects us to know that for He has spoken it.

I don't think that Pickles is saying anything like "saved in sin" because she is putting grace first. God, loving God with all your heart, accepting all Christ does for us IS first, everything else radiates from that.

But I agree, people are not seeing sin as God sees it. If our eyes are filled with God, part of that is seeing sin in the correct perspective, and I have heard lots of taking it out of context. I shudder when I hear "not under sin but grace", that beautiful miraculous truth used to say they don't have to deal with sin. God tells us that way that He will forgive and protect us from sin meaning death for us, but in other scripture he tells us that repentance is part of that and God expects us to know that for He has spoken it.

If that is the case then why do people dance around the issues of heart purity and the cessation of rebellion as being conditional in regards to salvation?

Why do they uphold a doctrine that one can be inwardly defiled (the opposite of being pure in heart) and actively engaged in rebellion and yet saved at the same time?

If these people didn't believe in a "saved IN sin" gospel then they would not have any issue with purity of heart in a genuine with the notion that a genuine Christian is no longer in rebellion to God.

Anyone can talk about "trusting Jesus" and "belief" and "saved by grace through faith" and the "empowerment of God" etc. but if such talk is within a FRAMEWORK of ONGOING INIQUITY then all it is all a cover for Satan's lie of "ye can sin and not surely die."

Carefully read Grandpa's posts. Why cannot he directly address the specific issues of heart purity and the cessation of rebellion?

The reason is because he believes that human being are UNABLE to yield to God unless God SAVES THEM FIRST. Thus one approaches God in a rebellious and disobedient state and cries for mercy and THEN WAITS for God to change them. In the meantime the individual continues in their iniquity. Instead of repentance being where the axe is laid to the root of iniquity in the heart it has been redefined to a "confession of sinfulness." Thus under the deception the old man NEVER DIES and thus the new man CAN NEVER be born.

It is a most crafty deception. Satan has been able to pervert the simplicity of the doctrine according to godliness which by necessity is aligned with abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and replace it with a NOTION of "trusting in a provision" whereby one "perceives" they are IN CHRIST when in fact they are not. This is why there is an allowance of ongoing iniquity whilst one is IN Christ for the IN CHRIST is perceived as a CLOAK FOR VICE.


Whenever I raise the fundamental issues of genuine repentance (ala the cessation of rebellion) and heart purity people generally respond with repudiations of such things with accusations of teaching "self righteousness," "adding to the cross," "not trusting Jesus," "earning salvation" etc.

Jesus plainly taught that it is the DOER of the word whom is likened unto a wise man who builds his house upon the rock whilst it is the HEARER ONLY whom builds his house upon the sand. There is no indication whatsoever in the words of Jesus that God "makes you a doer" after "receiving Jesus." In fact Jesus teaches the complete opposite that it is in "doing" what one is "receiving Him."

Can you see the fallacy?

These people honestly believe that one can be "saved" and at the very same time "engaged in immorality." That is what they believe.

They honestly believe that a serial murderer can "receive Jesus" and be "saved" and yet still be engaged in murdering because sanctification is a process of "sinning less." That is what they believe. If they didn't believe that then they would directly address the issue of the sin ceasing. They don't, they dance around the issue with "words of love" and "Jesus" and "trust" which is simply a "form of godliness" which "denies the power."

 

[Skinski7]

The Bible clearly teaches that it is faith which purifies the heart (Act 15:9).

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

How is it that faith purifies the heart?

Peter gives the clear answer in 1Pet 1:22...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Obedience to the truth via the Spirit is what purifies the heart unto unfeigned love (ie. no guile or ulterior motive within).

Thus faith = Obedience to the truth. In other words FAITH is FAITHFULNESS TO GOD. Faith simply means "trusting and yielding to God." Thus faith is the opposite of rebellion.

Is it any wonder the Bible states that we are "saved by grace THROUGH faith" ? Faith is the DOING ASPECT in response to the leading (teaching) of the grace of God. Hence we receive grace for obedience to the faith (Rom 1:5).

There is no possible way one can disconnect obedience from faith. To do so is a clear indication that one does not understand what faith is. Remember how God reckoned the faith of Abraham as righteousness (Rom 4:5) and the faith of Abraham walked (Rom 4:12), trusted (Rom 4:20-21), had deeds of righteousness (Joh 8:39), was obedient (Heb 11:8). Faith is also a present active state and not a one off event for it involves CONTINUANCE (Joh 8:31).

The wolves on the other hand deny all the above and preach a licentious gospel where faith is not equivalent to faithfulness, but rather faith is simply "trusting that something was done" and THAT'S IT. Heart purity and genuine service to God is thrown out the window and in its place a very deceptive gospel has been erected which serves as a provision for ongoing iniquity.

This "provision for ongoing iniquity" is defended by those who have fallen for it. Thus they will vehemently oppose any idea that "abiding in Christ" has anything to do with total submission from the heart. Often they will muddy the waters of "heart obedience" by switching the subject to "sinless perfection." The issue is not about being perfect (in the sense of never making a mistake or missing the mark), the issue is in regards to walking in the light which one has, ie. not doing wrong KNOWINGLY.


Who preaches heart purity today?

Hardly anyone does.

Why?

Paul and Jesus both preached it. Why not the modern theologians? They don't preach it because they don't believe it because they are the wolves dressed as lambs.

Don't be deceived.

 

[silverdollar]

Pickles,

There are responses in this thread which clearly imply that the cessation of rebellion in repentance is a false teaching. It is in light of this very contention that the question of "does a murderer have to stop murdering BEFORE God will forgive them" is AVOIDED.

The common premise of Christian orthodoxy in the present day is a SAVED IN SINS Gospel. In other words people have genuinely come to hold the view that that salvation is purely positional in application and can exist WHILST one is still in rebellion to God.

Thus those who hold to this theology will defend that one can indeed sin and not surely die whilst they deny that heart purity is an essential component of genuine salvation.

This "saved in sins" message is leading MILLIONS of people to perdition and there are very few who speak against it.

i agree with this.
i don't think you can keep sinning and be saved. i think Jesus comes to you and confronts you with a choice to stop being a rebel and a sinner and you believe him and agree you want to change and it's a battle for awhile. that's what happened to me. i knew Jesus was real and i knew him, and i wanted to be saved, but i didn't know for sure how bad i was off and he confronted me with how bad it was, and i got attacked by evil spiritis and didn't sleep or get any rest or anything for a few days. and then i was on my knees for a whole day and i received the Holy Spirit. so i know he saved me. because i know what it was like.
and after that the things i used to like i hated and they made me sick.
but i can't say my heart is pure. i thought that pure meant sincere.
that's a good post tho bro because its pretty hard to find much to like in the old sins.
i did sin a few times pretty bad after and i got attacked by evil spirits again and got really scared and repented. i don't do that anymore. i still sin sometimes though but i am sincere. i tell Jesus i'm sorry and i know he forgives me.

 

[pickles]

Pickles,

There are responses in this thread which clearly imply that the cessation of rebellion in repentance is a false teaching. It is in light of this very contention that the question of "does a murderer have to stop murdering BEFORE God will forgive them" is AVOIDED.

The common premise of Christian orthodoxy in the present day is a SAVED IN SINS Gospel. In other words people have genuinely come to hold the view that that salvation is purely positional in application and can exist WHILST one is still in rebellion to God.

Thus those who hold to this theology will defend that one can indeed sin and not surely die whilst they deny that heart purity is an essential component of genuine salvation.

This "saved in sins" message is leading MILLIONS of people to perdition and there are very few who speak against it.

Ill try this one more time skinski,
First, never did I say one can remain in their sins and be saved.
Just so this is made clear, ok?
In John scripture says,
In Him(Jesus) everything that was made, was made.
And anything was not , was not made.

I see everything we are and become in Jesus , as bought. provided, given and created in us.
Yes we recieve the gift of obedience, the question is? Do we recieive it or reject it?
The things of the world belong to the world, that is why when one recieves Jesus they, yes, set aside their very flesh for Him!
But everything we do, gain, and grow in comes from Jesus, the question is, do we recieve His gifts, or do we reject them.
For if we reject them we do not grow in spirit, but as you said, we remain in flesh and are double minded.
But if we recieive all that is given by Jesus, we grow in Him, in spirit.
We do not earn salvation, it is God's gift to us in Jesus, but this gift is to be recieive and lived according to His guiding hand.
We cannot know what true rightousness is with out Jesus, yes we have the commandments, but they bring us to what is good, to Jesus, the gift of salvation.
One should not look to this gift as something to be put away, untill they feel like it or decide it might have value.
One recieves this gift and Jesus's teachings, the streangth to obey, the courage to reject the world, the want and streangth from Jesus to overcome.
I do not condone or say sin is ok, knowing and loving Jesus, God our Father is to see and recieve understanding why God hates sin so, and why sin destroys.
The point here is that we do nothing on our own, all is given, all is made in us.
The simple question is, will one recieive and abide in these gifts, or will they reject them.

One is born into the world flesh, and as we grow we learn to live in this flesh and recieive all needed from our parents, and one obeys their parent because this is how one remains safe to grow, and mature.
Rejecting one's parents guidence, often leads to struggles, even loss of ones worldly life.

When we recieive Jesus we die to flesh, and are born into His spirit.
When one is born into Jesus, spirit, one must learn just as an infant, how to, obey, walk,eat, talk and mature, we in Jesus look to God Our Father for all provided, recieving His gifts, provision so we may be safe, so we may grow and mature in Spirit.
To reject His provision, means one will not grow, mature and can cause one to lose eternal life.

Skinski, Im not saying it is ok to sin, Im simply saying that we recieive all from Jesus to set sin aside, knowing He has overcome the world, so in Jesus, we overcome as well.
I agree with all you speak to, the only differance is? that we cannot take any credit for such, because I see all as God's gift, salvation, provision given in Jesus.
We recieive and live all that is His gifts, understanding, obedience, a new and willing heart, we love Him!
Because He loved us first!

I hope there is now understanding here.

God bless
pickles

 

[pickles]

I was able to read and understand better what you are speaking to, dislexia is a struggle sometimes, so Im sorry if I didnt get what you spoke to.
The saved in sins is a difficult debate, simply because one cannot see all their sins, and do need Jesus's help to overcome.
But one must see and know they cannot continue to sin and be free from accountibuility of sin.
Grace is so we will no longer be under sin, not so we may continue to sin.
Like Paul said, so does this mean we may sin so grace may abound, God forbid!
My point in this thread was simple, we do nothing on our own, all is given and recieived from God in Jesus.
There was a time when I was very young, when I was obedient and did all as perfect.
I saw myself as good in every way, and thought this was what saved me.
But God Our Father chastised me, showing me the pride in my heart, and I saw that sin is not all about actions, but the state of ones heart, mind and soul.
I knew and learned then that obedience, holyness , rightousness, being sin free and what and how one lives, this comes in Jesus, from God Our Father above.
Just as every hair on my head is numbered, every cell in my body His creation, so is all I live and grow in Jesus His gift.
We are called to live in Jesus, recieve His salvation, and yes, set aside flesh and sin, deny our very self for Jesus.
But all is given so we may recieve and live in Jesus.
Its wether we recieive, or reject.
So we will be born into spirit, in Jesus.
Maby we will still disagree on this point, but do understand I agree we must set sin aside and live in Jesus.
I just see all, everything as given and recieved in Jesus, from God, claiming nothing of self.

In Jesus, God bless
pickles

 

[Cobus]

I always believed that God does not WASTE grace. God's grace STARTED by offering His Son. But God's grace does not stop there, God also sent the Holy Spirit to make us KNOWN about what He wants... Reproof us of sin, and if God did not do that, we will ALL CONTINUE IN SIN. And die in sin.

Did God not say when He makes us free we are free indeed. That is a huge statement to make, but for Him it is NOTHING. If we have to make ourselves free we CANNOT even start. And the disciples also feared that if PERFECTION is God's only pleasure, they asked Jesus... WHO THEN SHALL BE SAVED... And Jeus answered what is impossible for man.... For God EVERYTHING is possible... Thank God that He still save people today.


God's grace only stops when HE FINISHED THE SALVATION.

 

[silverdollar]

Ill try this one more time skinski,
First, never did I say one can remain in their sins and be saved.
Just so this is made clear, ok?
In John scripture says,
In Him(Jesus) everything that was made, was made.
And anything was not , was not made.

I see everything we are and become in Jesus , as bought. provided, given and created in us.
Yes we recieve the gift of obedience, the question is? Do we recieive it or reject it?
The things of the world belong to the world, that is why when one recieves Jesus they, yes, set aside their very flesh for Him!
But everything we do, gain, and grow in comes from Jesus, the question is, do we recieve His gifts, or do we reject them.
For if we reject them we do not grow in spirit, but as you said, we remain in flesh and are double minded.
But if we recieive all that is given by Jesus, we grow in Him, in spirit.
We do not earn salvation, it is God's gift to us in Jesus, but this gift is to be recieive and lived according to His guiding hand.
We cannot know what true rightousness is with out Jesus, yes we have the commandments, but they bring us to what is good, to Jesus, the gift of salvation.
One should not look to this gift as something to be put away, untill they feel like it or decide it might have value.
One recieves this gift and Jesus's teachings, the streangth to obey, the courage to reject the world, the want and streangth from Jesus to overcome.
I do not condone or say sin is ok, knowing and loving Jesus, God our Father is to see and recieve understanding why God hates sin so, and why sin destroys.
The point here is that we do nothing on our own, all is given, all is made in us.
The simple question is, will one recieive and abide in these gifts, or will they reject them.

One is born into the world flesh, and as we grow we learn to live in this flesh and recieive all needed from our parents, and one obeys their parent because this is how one remains safe to grow, and mature.
Rejecting one's parents guidence, often leads to struggles, even loss of ones worldly life.

When we recieive Jesus we die to flesh, and are born into His spirit.
When one is born into Jesus, spirit, one must learn just as an infant, how to, obey, walk,eat, talk and mature, we in Jesus look to God Our Father for all provided, recieving His gifts, provision so we may be safe, so we may grow and mature in Spirit.
To reject His provision, means one will not grow, mature and can cause one to lose eternal life.

Skinski, Im not saying it is ok to sin, Im simply saying that we recieive all from Jesus to set sin aside, knowing He has overcome the world, so in Jesus, we overcome as well.
I agree with all you speak to, the only differance is? that we cannot take any credit for such, because I see all as God's gift, salvation, provision given in Jesus.
We recieive and live all that is His gifts, understanding, obedience, a new and willing heart, we love Him!
Because He loved us first!

I hope there is now understanding here.

God bless
pickles

this is exactly how i understand it! everything we had and did before was because of us and Adam. but everything we have when we are christians Jesus gave to us.
i think this post is the best post i have seen so far because it says what i know happened to me.
Jesus gave me everything i have, even the dislike for sin, and the new things i like.
and i know when i do sin, which i hate it when i do it and its like i did it before i even think about mostly, Jesus forgives me. its not fun to admit i went of the track, but i he forgives me because he gave me everything anyways.
thank you Picles

 

[silverdollar]

When we recieive Jesus we die to flesh, and are born into His spirit.

God bless
pickles

this is the part i don't get.
why do we have to die to flesh, like Picles said
i read all kinds of things about evil flesh, and good spirit i don't get it.
dont we keep our bodies clean and just control our flesh? or is there something evil in our flesh?
i'll ask my teacher.

if someone could explain this it would help.

 

[Ephraim]

'grace' simply means 'a favor', or 'a gift' or 'kindness'. And bear in mind that a gift is free.

The greek word for grace is 'charis', where we derive our word 'charity' from.

Faith derives from 'pistis', which means to be one who is 'persuaded'. The modern greek 'pisti' has the same meaning. Faith is no prerequisite to anything, it is simply being someone who has found the path, who trusts it to be right. Resulting in a meaningful life.

 

[Skinski7]

this is the part i don't get.
why do we have to die to flesh, like Picles said
i read all kinds of things about evil flesh, and good spirit i don't get it.
dont we keep our bodies clean and just control our flesh? or is there something evil in our flesh?
i'll ask my teacher.

if someone could explain this it would help.

Dying to the flesh is simply a state of mind whereby one has put off a life whereby one is ruled over by fleshly passions. Instead of being driven by fleshly passions we allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit whereby we keep our body under subjection.

There is nothing evil about the flesh. The flesh has natural passions and desires. These passions and desires TEMPT one to sin because the flesh in and of itself seeks gratification. Sin is when one CHOOSES gratification OVER righteousness, thus the sins of the flesh are merely a misuse of the will.

James describes it thus...

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This temptation is common to all men.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.


Temptation is a test of our faith.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

There are two roads.

1. Walk according to the lusts of the flesh ---------------------------> DEATH.
2. Walk according to the leading of the Spirit ------------------------> LIFE.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Being led by the Spirit takes precedence over the lusts of the flesh. Hence a genuine Christian has crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The walk of a Christian must match the talk.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Skinski7]

Ill try this one more time skinski,
First, never did I say one can remain in their sins and be saved.
Just so this is made clear, ok?
In John scripture says,
In Him(Jesus) everything that was made, was made.
And anything was not , was not made.

I see everything we are and become in Jesus , as bought. provided, given and created in us.
Yes we recieve the gift of obedience, the question is? Do we recieive it or reject it?
The things of the world belong to the world, that is why when one recieves Jesus they, yes, set aside their very flesh for Him!
But everything we do, gain, and grow in comes from Jesus, the question is, do we recieve His gifts, or do we reject them.
For if we reject them we do not grow in spirit, but as you said, we remain in flesh and are double minded.
But if we recieive all that is given by Jesus, we grow in Him, in spirit.
We do not earn salvation, it is God's gift to us in Jesus, but this gift is to be recieive and lived according to His guiding hand.
We cannot know what true rightousness is with out Jesus, yes we have the commandments, but they bring us to what is good, to Jesus, the gift of salvation.
One should not look to this gift as something to be put away, untill they feel like it or decide it might have value.
One recieves this gift and Jesus's teachings, the streangth to obey, the courage to reject the world, the want and streangth from Jesus to overcome.
I do not condone or say sin is ok, knowing and loving Jesus, God our Father is to see and recieve understanding why God hates sin so, and why sin destroys.
The point here is that we do nothing on our own, all is given, all is made in us.
The simple question is, will one recieive and abide in these gifts, or will they reject them.

One is born into the world flesh, and as we grow we learn to live in this flesh and recieive all needed from our parents, and one obeys their parent because this is how one remains safe to grow, and mature.
Rejecting one's parents guidence, often leads to struggles, even loss of ones worldly life.

When we recieive Jesus we die to flesh, and are born into His spirit.
When one is born into Jesus, spirit, one must learn just as an infant, how to, obey, walk,eat, talk and mature, we in Jesus look to God Our Father for all provided, recieving His gifts, provision so we may be safe, so we may grow and mature in Spirit.
To reject His provision, means one will not grow, mature and can cause one to lose eternal life.

Skinski, Im not saying it is ok to sin, Im simply saying that we recieive all from Jesus to set sin aside, knowing He has overcome the world, so in Jesus, we overcome as well.
I agree with all you speak to, the only differance is? that we cannot take any credit for such, because I see all as God's gift, salvation, provision given in Jesus.
We recieive and live all that is His gifts, understanding, obedience, a new and willing heart, we love Him!
Because He loved us first!

I hope there is now understanding here.

God bless
pickles

I completely agree with everything you have written in this post.

The issue I raise is not about "taking credit" because EVERYTHING as it pertains to life is rooted in Jesus Christ. Without Him we are nothing.

Yet this "taking all the credit" is often misused to imply that ANY NOTION that one can CHOOSE TO OBEY GOD is a false teaching. God presents human beings with a choice, to either submit to His will and be led of God, or to reject His will and walk according to carnal desires. One cannot do both.

Modern evangelical theology teaches that one CAN and DOES do both because they teach that "sin" is a substance of the flesh and thus human beings sin by necessity. In other words they teach it is impossible to stop sinning and they then pull passages like Isa 64:6, Rom 7:14-28, and 1Joh 1:8-9 out of context in order to deny any possibility of genuine heart purity in a Christian.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski in blue.

I was able to read and understand better what you are speaking to, dislexia is a struggle sometimes, so Im sorry if I didnt get what you spoke to.
The saved in sins is a difficult debate, simply because one cannot see all their sins, and do need Jesus's help to overcome. This is why it is very important to make the distinction between "willful sin" and "non-willful sin." Willful sin is rooted in INIQUITY because it is a clear exercise of the will in CHOOSING to do evil when one KNOWS to do good.

Willful sin is described as a "sin unto death" by Paul for ht describes the opposite of it as "obedience to the truth."

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Thus...

Sin unto death = Disobedience to righteousness.

A genuine Christian has done this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The genuine convert to Jesus Christ has OBEYED FROM THE HEART and it is in obeying from the heart that "sin unto death" has ceased.

Which is why John makes the same distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

When John teaches that those who are born of God "sinneth not" it is in reference to "sin unto death."

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Those born of God CHOOSE the right path because they are led by the Spirit having put off the old man which walked according to the lusts of the flesh. Paul in his epistles is constantly admonishing his readers to make sure they have indeed put off the flesh, in other words he is making sure they are walking the walk and not merely giving lip service.

But one must see and know they cannot continue to sin and be free from accountibuility of sin.
Grace is so we will no longer be under sin, not so we may continue to sin.
Like Paul said, so does this mean we may sin so grace may abound, God forbid!
My point in this thread was simple, we do nothing on our own, all is given and recieived from God in Jesus. I completely agree. Life is found via abiding IN Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the light of the world and life is only found IN Him. God wants us to be plugged into the power source so to speak, in being plugged into the power source the light of God manifests THROUGH us and our light may then shine for all to see.
There was a time when I was very young, when I was obedient and did all as perfect.
I saw myself as good in every way, and thought this was what saved me.
But God Our Father chastised me, showing me the pride in my heart, and I saw that sin is not all about actions, but the state of ones heart, mind and soul. Exactly right. I completely agree. Outward regimentation to a set of standards of conduct apart from heart purity is only a "form of righteousness" and is in fact "dead works." True righteousness is found in heart purity which is only found by being IN the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.
I knew and learned then that obedience, holyness , rightousness, being sin free and what and how one lives, this comes in Jesus, from God Our Father above. Amen.
Just as every hair on my head is numbered, every cell in my body His creation, so is all I live and grow in Jesus His gift.
We are called to live in Jesus, recieve His salvation, and yes, set aside flesh and sin, deny our very self for Jesus.
But all is given so we may recieve and live in Jesus.
Its wether we recieive, or reject. Yet many will teach that one can "receive" and yet be "rejecting" at the very same time. They preach that salvation is POSITIONAL and that God "reckons them righteous" whilst they are "still engaged in rebellion." It is not so. One cannot receive Jesus Christ in rebellion, the rebellion must be forsaken for one cannot yield and not yield at the same time.
So we will be born into spirit, in Jesus.
Maby we will still disagree on this point, but do understand I agree we must set sin aside and live in Jesus.
I just see all, everything as given and recieved in Jesus, from God, claiming nothing of self. Claiming that we "obey God" or claiming that we have "chosen to obey God" is not to diminish that "life is found in Christ."

One of the major fallacies of reformed theology is their approach to the sovereignty of God. In their mind attributing ANYTHING to man (such as the CHOICE to obey or disobey) is infringing on the sovereignty of God. Thus they have removed choice from the equation and therefore treat men like robots.

Reformed Theology is deadly because it takes all the responsibility off of man and puts man in a position to "wait on God" apart from DOING ANYTHING. Thus the response of man to the conviction wrought by the Spirit of God in the world which is "repentance and faith" is redefined to something that God MAKES one do instead of being a CHOICE. Thus they throw the SYNERGY of "working together WITH God" right out the window.

It is incredibly deceptive.

In Jesus, God bless
pickles

 

[Bowman]

How will we be saved? Grace through faith? please post the verse so we can see!
And what does this FAITH IN JESUS means... Do you have this faith, this UNWAVERING faith.... I do not hve it.

We are saved by faith...of which, the Holy Bible defines as 'acting upon established truth'...and the examples provided in scripture depict a Triune God.

We are saved by belief in, and worship of, a Triune God.

 

[AgapeSpiritEyes]

What is the substance of this faith it is All powerful Love (Agape) it is I am learning to agree and walk as He is revealed in His love to me. We accept and receive His; personality, His character, He Himself ultimately, His love that is how we grow into Him not that I have obtained that He is yet completed in me but He is developing in me Himself that is how we are heirs of Their Kingdom (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) He opened His hand saying do you want to be like me, how I Am, my character, my personality? I say yes, so I live learning as a son to be like Him am I complete yet no, am I chosen to be like Him yes, did I answer His call yes, then He is all powerful(Power means to be able to reproduce) to reproduce His; nature, personality and character in me these and only these aspects fill and permeate all things in their kingdom and He is faithful to produce these substances of Himself in us if we continue to believe His love is all powerful to produce them in us as we keep our hearts open to Him.