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a different take here, if I may: it is not a must, and I know we are to be like-minded, but not a must for us to agree on every point and every detail down to the root. just to address some of the things above, if I do not believe in the rapture, which I do not, but do believe that Jesus is coming again, well that is o.k. because we can argue over how and when, but if we believe that it is going to happen, that should be good enough.
but the pride of people and the wishing to thought-police that churches and denominations have create what some people call grey areas. I walk into a church or hear a pastor say you must believe in a rapture, you cannot go to ballgame and have a beer, you should sell you t.v. and give that money to the church, and things like this that are not must-do and must believe I'm gone, never looking back. and so should anyone who understands the Bible. but sadly many do not really read and study and pray over the word, but that is another thread to start up. so, I do agree, mostly incorrect use of the Word and not so much grey.
but the pride of people and the wishing to thought-police that churches and denominations have create what some people call grey areas. I walk into a church or hear a pastor say you must believe in a rapture, you cannot go to ballgame and have a beer, you should sell you t.v. and give that money to the church, and things like this that are not must-do and must believe I'm gone, never looking back. and so should anyone who understands the Bible. but sadly many do not really read and study and pray over the word, but that is another thread to start up. so, I do agree, mostly incorrect use of the Word and not so much grey.
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Please pick a page and show the gray areas.
I see gray areas on X-Files, but not in Scripture, lol.
No, we have the potential for either one being right, the other wrong, or...both being wrong.
Do you feel that all debates between opposing views create a gray area?
Is there a gray area between the Mormon and the Christian when they debate whether God was once a man in eternity past, and became a god because He was "very good?"
Me too. There is nothing quite as rewarding in this life than to know that the Living God has enlightened your mind. That is true of those recently converted as well as for the diligent Bible Student. Most of us have had "A-Ha! moments" where we are convinced that God Himself has just opened our eyes a little more to truth.
Paul does not make this exclusive to Himself:
1 Corinthians 13:12
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
We can't make this to mean that the understanding of the Revelation provided is not certain. Paul's point is that thee is coming a day where full revelation will replace our prophesying (speaking forth of the Word of God) and current knowledge. We don't nullify the fact that the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed in this Age, and that we can, by reason of New Testament Revelation, understand it to the point God means for us to understand it.
The Gospel is not a gray area. And while there is debate about the Doctrine of Christ, debate will reveal one of the two groups mentioned above: one of the parties being right, or both parties being wrong.
That is a bit misleading. We distinguish between understanding what is revealed and what is not.
We are faced to say "I can know all that God has revealed about Himself and His will, that doesn't mean that Scripture reveals all there is to know about God."
It is written to mankind, and given as well as preserved that men can be confident that what God has said, He intends for us to both understand as well as come under obedience to it.
Agreed. It is a journey with a specific destination. The destination is understanding, and while we might say it is not possible to encompass the vast resource God has given us, that doesn't equate to "We can never understand certain things."
The only reason for being "bogged down with schemes" is if we allow something to take precedence over that which we have been called to be obedient to.
God will teach us to discern good and evil, but, He also requires diligence in seeking after that.
I would agree with that as well, which is why Christian Discussion and Debate Forums are a great way for us to accelerate our understanding, because we can come together and share the perspectives we currently have wherever it is we are in our studies.
It is just my opinion that most who take Forum Discussion seriously have been in some way gifted in areas of the Word of God. Some may be preachers, teachers, or evangelists, but most are being obedient to our responsibility to seek after God, and evidence a love for the Word of God.
Not really. Just because one is born in a Muslim environment, for example, doesn't mean they will never convert to Christianity.
Christian Persecution is a great evidence that we are not bound to indoctrination of any form. It does not nullify God's promise to reward those who diligently seek Him out.
And this is a great statement of truth. We are not saved by flawless doctrine, only through faith in Christ, which is coming under obedience to the Gospel.
God bless.
I see gray areas on X-Files, but not in Scripture, lol.
No, we have the potential for either one being right, the other wrong, or...both being wrong.
Do you feel that all debates between opposing views create a gray area?
Is there a gray area between the Mormon and the Christian when they debate whether God was once a man in eternity past, and became a god because He was "very good?"
Me too. There is nothing quite as rewarding in this life than to know that the Living God has enlightened your mind. That is true of those recently converted as well as for the diligent Bible Student. Most of us have had "A-Ha! moments" where we are convinced that God Himself has just opened our eyes a little more to truth.
Paul does not make this exclusive to Himself:
1 Corinthians 13:12
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
We can't make this to mean that the understanding of the Revelation provided is not certain. Paul's point is that thee is coming a day where full revelation will replace our prophesying (speaking forth of the Word of God) and current knowledge. We don't nullify the fact that the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed in this Age, and that we can, by reason of New Testament Revelation, understand it to the point God means for us to understand it.
The Gospel is not a gray area. And while there is debate about the Doctrine of Christ, debate will reveal one of the two groups mentioned above: one of the parties being right, or both parties being wrong.
That is a bit misleading. We distinguish between understanding what is revealed and what is not.
We are faced to say "I can know all that God has revealed about Himself and His will, that doesn't mean that Scripture reveals all there is to know about God."
It is written to mankind, and given as well as preserved that men can be confident that what God has said, He intends for us to both understand as well as come under obedience to it.
Agreed. It is a journey with a specific destination. The destination is understanding, and while we might say it is not possible to encompass the vast resource God has given us, that doesn't equate to "We can never understand certain things."
The only reason for being "bogged down with schemes" is if we allow something to take precedence over that which we have been called to be obedient to.
God will teach us to discern good and evil, but, He also requires diligence in seeking after that.
I would agree with that as well, which is why Christian Discussion and Debate Forums are a great way for us to accelerate our understanding, because we can come together and share the perspectives we currently have wherever it is we are in our studies.
It is just my opinion that most who take Forum Discussion seriously have been in some way gifted in areas of the Word of God. Some may be preachers, teachers, or evangelists, but most are being obedient to our responsibility to seek after God, and evidence a love for the Word of God.
Not really. Just because one is born in a Muslim environment, for example, doesn't mean they will never convert to Christianity.
Christian Persecution is a great evidence that we are not bound to indoctrination of any form. It does not nullify God's promise to reward those who diligently seek Him out.
And this is a great statement of truth. We are not saved by flawless doctrine, only through faith in Christ, which is coming under obedience to the Gospel.
God bless.
P
And the objections you present here are a good example of poor teaching. To cloud the simplicity of the Gospel with unscriptural impositions, especially if those impositions are directly related to a salvific context is...heresy.
We are not saved by our positions of secondary issues, we are saved through our response to the Comforter Himself, who convicts sinners of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He is the One that shows us we are sinners, that Christ is righteous, and that apart from Him we can expect only eternal judgment.
I know for myself, and probably most here, when I came under conviction there was a definitive fear of God, and this because I knew I was not in relationship to Him except that there was enmity between us. But He showed me that it was His will that I come to Him, and I did.
Thanks for the contribution to the thread.
God bless.
We are not saved by our positions of secondary issues, we are saved through our response to the Comforter Himself, who convicts sinners of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He is the One that shows us we are sinners, that Christ is righteous, and that apart from Him we can expect only eternal judgment.
I know for myself, and probably most here, when I came under conviction there was a definitive fear of God, and this because I knew I was not in relationship to Him except that there was enmity between us. But He showed me that it was His will that I come to Him, and I did.
Thanks for the contribution to the thread.
God bless.
P
I was looking at my response and realized this...
...could possibly be seen as directed at you, lol, and I just want to assure that it wasn't. The poor teaching are the examples you gave, and I'll be honest, not sure which of us would be walking out the door sooner, lol. Visited a fellowship once with a friend of mine and the preaching was horrible. The guy was screaming and his doctrine was clearly not biblical. My friend got up and walked out, but I stayed, feeling a little funny doing that.
Anyway, to clarify my intent, in view were the examples you gave:
And if you are interested in discussing the Rapture, this thread is kind of a general Theological discussion, so nothing brought up really takes us off-topic.
God bless.
...could possibly be seen as directed at you, lol, and I just want to assure that it wasn't. The poor teaching are the examples you gave, and I'll be honest, not sure which of us would be walking out the door sooner, lol. Visited a fellowship once with a friend of mine and the preaching was horrible. The guy was screaming and his doctrine was clearly not biblical. My friend got up and walked out, but I stayed, feeling a little funny doing that.
Anyway, to clarify my intent, in view were the examples you gave:
And if you are interested in discussing the Rapture, this thread is kind of a general Theological discussion, so nothing brought up really takes us off-topic.
God bless.
But there is no timeline of events in Revelation. That is an exegetical myth. Revelation is composed of a number of visions EACH OF WHICH ENDS WTH THE SECOND COMING.
To take three obvious example. The sixth seal taken literally is the second coming. The reaper in Rev 14 is the second coming. The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is the second coming. Rev 20 is also a new vision and ends with the second coming. It recapitulates what has gone before (e.g. 9.1-11).
Only on your view so this is a clear grey area. Christ returns at the end of chapter 20 when He brings about His judgment, in this case pictured in terms of a great white throne (compare the glorious throne of Matt 25). What occurs in chapter 20 is a vision of THIS AGE with Christ and His saints reigning in Heaven (whilst we reign with Him in the heavenlies - Eph 2.5-6) having enjoyed our part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. We have been raised with Him (Col 3.1). THAT is the first resurrection.
Of course it was the first view. It was the view of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John (where not misinterpreted). Just because some later fathers got entangled in Jewish fables we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus, Paul and Peter were remarkably reticent about any coming future reign on earth.
LOL you clearly haven't read Augustine (4th century AD). The predominant view among the early fathers was amillennial.
Not really. It stems back to the early fathers whome they both interpreted.
what I always admire is spiritual humility LOL
S Not to nullify Scripture. To exemplify it.
No as LITERAL but recognising that the use of large round numbers in those days was a device to indicate a long period of uncertain length. Thus in the Old Testament 'a thousand' regularly indicates an uncertain but large number..
Actually they are not. Those who reign with Him are the SOULS of those who have died in Christ from the beginning. And they are reigning with Him NOW..
LOL the Old Testament regularly speaks of 1000 generations. But it NEVER means it literally. Yes, the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ in which they as SOULS participated and we also have participated. The second resurrection is our bodily resurrection.
Typical premill. Multiply the bodily resurrections when Jesus clearly stated that all were raised in the SAME HOUR (John 5.28-29).
Actually it means that they have begun to treat Scripture seriously and not in line with some dogma.
So you O great one have come to the truth, and we poor ignorant amillennialists have not diligently studied. Your arrogance is unbelievable
True so why not start? We will help you
To take three obvious example. The sixth seal taken literally is the second coming. The reaper in Rev 14 is the second coming. The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is the second coming. Rev 20 is also a new vision and ends with the second coming. It recapitulates what has gone before (e.g. 9.1-11).
Only on your view so this is a clear grey area. Christ returns at the end of chapter 20 when He brings about His judgment, in this case pictured in terms of a great white throne (compare the glorious throne of Matt 25). What occurs in chapter 20 is a vision of THIS AGE with Christ and His saints reigning in Heaven (whilst we reign with Him in the heavenlies - Eph 2.5-6) having enjoyed our part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. We have been raised with Him (Col 3.1). THAT is the first resurrection.
Of course it was the first view. It was the view of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John (where not misinterpreted). Just because some later fathers got entangled in Jewish fables we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus, Paul and Peter were remarkably reticent about any coming future reign on earth.
LOL you clearly haven't read Augustine (4th century AD). The predominant view among the early fathers was amillennial.
Not really. It stems back to the early fathers whome they both interpreted.
what I always admire is spiritual humility LOL
S Not to nullify Scripture. To exemplify it.
No as LITERAL but recognising that the use of large round numbers in those days was a device to indicate a long period of uncertain length. Thus in the Old Testament 'a thousand' regularly indicates an uncertain but large number..
Actually they are not. Those who reign with Him are the SOULS of those who have died in Christ from the beginning. And they are reigning with Him NOW..
LOL the Old Testament regularly speaks of 1000 generations. But it NEVER means it literally. Yes, the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ in which they as SOULS participated and we also have participated. The second resurrection is our bodily resurrection.
Typical premill. Multiply the bodily resurrections when Jesus clearly stated that all were raised in the SAME HOUR (John 5.28-29).
Actually it means that they have begun to treat Scripture seriously and not in line with some dogma.
So you O great one have come to the truth, and we poor ignorant amillennialists have not diligently studied. Your arrogance is unbelievable
True so why not start? We will help you
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P
But there is no timeline of events in Revelation. That is an exegetical myth. Revelation is composed of a number of visions EACH OF WHICH ENDS WTH THE SECOND COMING.
To take three obvious example. The sixth seal taken literally is the second coming. The reaper in Rev 14 is the second coming. The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is the second coming. Rev 20 is also a new vision and ends with the second coming. It recapitulates what has gone before (e.g. 9.1-11).
Only on your view so this is a clear grey area. Christ returns at the end of chapter 20 when He brings about His judgment, in this case pictured in terms of a great white throne (compare the glorious throne of Matt 25). What occurs in chapter 20 is a vision of THIS AGE with Christ and His saints reigning in Heaven (whilst we reign with Him in the heavenlies - Eph 2.5-6) having enjoyed our part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. We have been raised with Him (Col 3.1). THAT is the first resurrection.
Of course it was the first view. It was the view of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John (where not misinterpreted). Just because some later fathers got entangled in Jewish fables we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus, Paul and Peter were remarkably reticent about any coming future reign on earth.
LOL you clearly haven't read Augustine (4th century AD). The predominant view among the early fathers was amillennial.
Not really. It stems back to the early fathers whome they both interpreted.
what I always admire is spiritual humility LOL
S
Not to nullify Scripture. To exemplify it.
No as LITERAL but recognising that the use of large round numbers in those days was a device to indicate a long period of uncertain length. Thus in the Old Testament 'a thousand' regularly indicates an uncertain but large number..
Actually they are not. Those who reign with Him are the SOULS of those who have died in Christ from the beginning. And they are reigning with Him NOW..
LOL the Old Testament regularly speaks of 1000 generations. But it NEVER means it literally. Yes, the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ in which they as SOULS participated and we also have participated. The second resurrection is our bodily resurrection.
Typical premill. Multiply the bodily resurrections when Jesus clearly stated that all were raised in the SAME HOUR (John 5.28-29).
Actually it means that they have begun to treat Scripture seriously and not in line with some dogma.
So you O great one have come to the truth, and we poor ignorant amillennialists have not diligently studied. Your arrogance is unbelievable
True so why not start? We will help you
To take three obvious example. The sixth seal taken literally is the second coming. The reaper in Rev 14 is the second coming. The coming of Christ in Rev 19 is the second coming. Rev 20 is also a new vision and ends with the second coming. It recapitulates what has gone before (e.g. 9.1-11).
Only on your view so this is a clear grey area. Christ returns at the end of chapter 20 when He brings about His judgment, in this case pictured in terms of a great white throne (compare the glorious throne of Matt 25). What occurs in chapter 20 is a vision of THIS AGE with Christ and His saints reigning in Heaven (whilst we reign with Him in the heavenlies - Eph 2.5-6) having enjoyed our part in the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ. We have been raised with Him (Col 3.1). THAT is the first resurrection.
Of course it was the first view. It was the view of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John (where not misinterpreted). Just because some later fathers got entangled in Jewish fables we cannot ignore the fact that Jesus, Paul and Peter were remarkably reticent about any coming future reign on earth.
LOL you clearly haven't read Augustine (4th century AD). The predominant view among the early fathers was amillennial.
Not really. It stems back to the early fathers whome they both interpreted.
what I always admire is spiritual humility LOL
S
Not to nullify Scripture. To exemplify it.
No as LITERAL but recognising that the use of large round numbers in those days was a device to indicate a long period of uncertain length. Thus in the Old Testament 'a thousand' regularly indicates an uncertain but large number..
Actually they are not. Those who reign with Him are the SOULS of those who have died in Christ from the beginning. And they are reigning with Him NOW..
LOL the Old Testament regularly speaks of 1000 generations. But it NEVER means it literally. Yes, the first resurrection was the resurrection of Christ in which they as SOULS participated and we also have participated. The second resurrection is our bodily resurrection.
Typical premill. Multiply the bodily resurrections when Jesus clearly stated that all were raised in the SAME HOUR (John 5.28-29).
Actually it means that they have begun to treat Scripture seriously and not in line with some dogma.
So you O great one have come to the truth, and we poor ignorant amillennialists have not diligently studied. Your arrogance is unbelievable
True so why not start? We will help you
Can't wait to allow my arrogance to once again shine through to those as discerning as yourself, lol.
God bless.
P
Before responding to this I wanted to first say that I appreciate you going to the time and effort to support your views.
Originally Posted by P1LGR1M
Again, not a gray area...except to those who deny the very clear timeline of events in Revelation.
But there is no timeline of events in Revelation.
So we can place Christ's Return wherever we want?
Does the timeline of events allow that the Great White Throne Judgment occurs then...Babylon Falls?
Can we say that the Eternal State occurs before Christ's Return?
Of course there is a Timeline of Events.
No it's an exegetical conclusion, one which, if one does not arrive at it, their understanding of Revelation becomes...whatever they want to make of it.
There is only one Return of Christ in Revelation, and that takes place in Chapter 19. There are three resurrections, in Chs.11 and 20. There is one Great White Throne Judgment, that is also in Ch.20. There is one passing away of the World, and that follows the thousand year reign of Christ.
Show how any of these statements are in error.
There is only One Second Coming.
Kind of hard to present the opening of the Sixth Seal as the Return of Christ, seeing that the events of the opening of the Seventh Seal shows the Timeline of Events is still ongoing:
Revelation 8
King James Version (KJV)
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
We see something interesting in the period just after the Second Woe, and just prior to the Third Woe:
Revelation 11:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Now let's back up in the Timeline of Events and consider the period between the Sixth Seal and the Sixth Trumpet Judgment.
When Christ returns, His enemies are destroyed, just as it states in Revelation 19...
Revelation 19:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
This is the Return of Christ. There is quite a bit that takes place prior to this Return.
For example, let's consider the First Woe::
Revelation 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
How long is five months?
You have men being tormented...in Christ's Kingdom? For five months?
The period of establishment of the Millennial Kingdom is, according to Daniel 12, 75 days.
If we keep the TimeLine Revelation gives us, we do not run into conflicts like these. Now what has to be done is to explain why five months doesn't mean five months.
Continued...
Does the timeline of events allow that the Great White Throne Judgment occurs then...Babylon Falls?
Can we say that the Eternal State occurs before Christ's Return?
Of course there is a Timeline of Events.
No it's an exegetical conclusion, one which, if one does not arrive at it, their understanding of Revelation becomes...whatever they want to make of it.
There is only one Return of Christ in Revelation, and that takes place in Chapter 19. There are three resurrections, in Chs.11 and 20. There is one Great White Throne Judgment, that is also in Ch.20. There is one passing away of the World, and that follows the thousand year reign of Christ.
Show how any of these statements are in error.
There is only One Second Coming.
Kind of hard to present the opening of the Sixth Seal as the Return of Christ, seeing that the events of the opening of the Seventh Seal shows the Timeline of Events is still ongoing:
Revelation 8
King James Version (KJV)
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
We see something interesting in the period just after the Second Woe, and just prior to the Third Woe:
Revelation 11:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Now let's back up in the Timeline of Events and consider the period between the Sixth Seal and the Sixth Trumpet Judgment.
When Christ returns, His enemies are destroyed, just as it states in Revelation 19...
Revelation 19:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
This is the Return of Christ. There is quite a bit that takes place prior to this Return.
For example, let's consider the First Woe::
Revelation 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
How long is five months?
You have men being tormented...in Christ's Kingdom? For five months?
The period of establishment of the Millennial Kingdom is, according to Daniel 12, 75 days.
If we keep the TimeLine Revelation gives us, we do not run into conflicts like these. Now what has to be done is to explain why five months doesn't mean five months.
Continued...
(this post relates to #33 in "Ten Reasons To Reject Baptismal Regeneration".)
several good points in you post, I'll start here
God gives an answer to why not to eat the fruit... because you will die... but is that the whole answer? Eve sees that it will make one wise... wisdom is to be sought in other scriptures... so there may be more to the 'why'...
so, imo, we can know some part of the 'why', but, imo, usually not the whole... not enough to make a formula, imo...
again, the whole of God's will? I think you're assuming you know God's intentions, here...
right! and since it's one step at a time, at no point during the journey would one know 'all truth', which would include the whole 'why'... imo...
several good points in you post, I'll start here
God gives an answer to why not to eat the fruit... because you will die... but is that the whole answer? Eve sees that it will make one wise... wisdom is to be sought in other scriptures... so there may be more to the 'why'...
so, imo, we can know some part of the 'why', but, imo, usually not the whole... not enough to make a formula, imo...
again, the whole of God's will? I think you're assuming you know God's intentions, here...
right! and since it's one step at a time, at no point during the journey would one know 'all truth', which would include the whole 'why'... imo...
P
So believers die at the Lord's Return?
Revelation 14:13-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This indicates that the reaping that follows shows the continuation of God's Wrath being poured out. Believers...are still dying. Whereas when the Lord returns believers are gathered physically alive.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Where does the one told to reap stop the events of the Timeline? Clearly judgment is still taking place. The "reaping" that takes place is but part of what takes place, we still have to see the wheat gathered into His Garner, and the chaff burned up. That takes place at the Return of Christ. Here...is only death.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
While this may have an application to the Supper of the Great God, it does not cease the Timeline. This is an overview of the TimeLine of Events, even as the "Woman" is an overview of Christ being born, caught up, and Israel then being preserved in this time (the Tribulation).
And following this...are the Seven Vial Judgments, where we see that events are still unfolding.
Consider:
Revelation 16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
The drying up of the River Euphrates allows for the way of the Kings to be prepared.
And we cannot equate the three sets of judgment, the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials, because there are some differences (though they are similar):
Revelation 8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Again, while similar, we see a distinct difference between a third part and every living soul (all that lives) dying in the sea.
The distinction about how many die here...
Revelation 6:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 9:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
...demands a Timeline.
When the Fourth Seal is opened, a quarter of the earth's population dies.
When the Sixth Trumpet is blown, a third part of men die.
Can we make the Three Sets of Judgment the same ones? Or do the distinctions demand a Timeline?
Continued...
Revelation 14:13-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
This indicates that the reaping that follows shows the continuation of God's Wrath being poured out. Believers...are still dying. Whereas when the Lord returns believers are gathered physically alive.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Where does the one told to reap stop the events of the Timeline? Clearly judgment is still taking place. The "reaping" that takes place is but part of what takes place, we still have to see the wheat gathered into His Garner, and the chaff burned up. That takes place at the Return of Christ. Here...is only death.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
While this may have an application to the Supper of the Great God, it does not cease the Timeline. This is an overview of the TimeLine of Events, even as the "Woman" is an overview of Christ being born, caught up, and Israel then being preserved in this time (the Tribulation).
And following this...are the Seven Vial Judgments, where we see that events are still unfolding.
Consider:
Revelation 16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
The drying up of the River Euphrates allows for the way of the Kings to be prepared.
And we cannot equate the three sets of judgment, the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials, because there are some differences (though they are similar):
Revelation 8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Revelation 16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Again, while similar, we see a distinct difference between a third part and every living soul (all that lives) dying in the sea.
The distinction about how many die here...
Revelation 6:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 9:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
...demands a Timeline.
When the Fourth Seal is opened, a quarter of the earth's population dies.
When the Sixth Trumpet is blown, a third part of men die.
Can we make the Three Sets of Judgment the same ones? Or do the distinctions demand a Timeline?
Continued...
P
This is the only depiction of the literal Return of Christ, as prophesied in Zechariah:
Zechariah 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
This correlates to the Angel's statement here:
Acts 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Sorry, no. Revelation 20 presents a very clear Timeline of Events which separates the Lord's Return and the Resurrection of the Dead by one thousand years.
Because you have refused to acknowledge the Timeline presented by the Prophecy, you fail to distinguish the period of the Millennial Kingdom, which your own words will show demands a period of some length:
And there it is, my friend, by your own words you acknowledge that there is a period of time between the Lord's Return (at which time only Tribulation Martyrs are glorified (implied due to the long period of time they are said to reign with Christ, though in the Kingdom long life will be a characteristic of that Age)) and the Great White Throne Judgment.
You have defeated your own proposals with that one statement.
Continued...
Zechariah 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
This correlates to the Angel's statement here:
Acts 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Sorry, no. Revelation 20 presents a very clear Timeline of Events which separates the Lord's Return and the Resurrection of the Dead by one thousand years.
Because you have refused to acknowledge the Timeline presented by the Prophecy, you fail to distinguish the period of the Millennial Kingdom, which your own words will show demands a period of some length:
And there it is, my friend, by your own words you acknowledge that there is a period of time between the Lord's Return (at which time only Tribulation Martyrs are glorified (implied due to the long period of time they are said to reign with Christ, though in the Kingdom long life will be a characteristic of that Age)) and the Great White Throne Judgment.
You have defeated your own proposals with that one statement.
Continued...
P
In Revelation 9 we see demons being released from the bottomless pit:
Revelation 9
King James Version (KJV)1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
In Revelation 20 we see Satan imprisoned in the bottomless pit:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
So I am not sure why you would think your statement reasonable. Clearly separate events, not a reiteration.
In Revelation 9 the Tribulation is in full swing, and in Revelation 20 the Tribulation is over, and we see the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, or, to use your own definition and interpretive method, The Kingdom that will last a Long Time.
It's not my view, my friend...it is what Scripture states.
This is not a Gray Area.
We can truly say that it is Christ that renders judgment, but that does not nullify the fact that at the end of Revelation 20 we do not have the Lord's Return, but the passing away of this physical Universe:
Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And the events show this is an event that does not take place dring the Tribulation, nor during the Millennial Kingdom, but after these two periods are over:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
So we cannot embrace the A-Millennial View without violating Scripture.
Kind of hard to have these events already to have been fulfilled. The heavens and the earth have not yet passed away, they do not pass away before the Millennial Kingdom, so we either maintain the Biblical Timeline or we trespass into questionable interpretive maneuvers.
Continued...
Revelation 9
King James Version (KJV)1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
In Revelation 20 we see Satan imprisoned in the bottomless pit:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
So I am not sure why you would think your statement reasonable. Clearly separate events, not a reiteration.
In Revelation 9 the Tribulation is in full swing, and in Revelation 20 the Tribulation is over, and we see the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, or, to use your own definition and interpretive method, The Kingdom that will last a Long Time.
It's not my view, my friend...it is what Scripture states.
This is not a Gray Area.
We can truly say that it is Christ that renders judgment, but that does not nullify the fact that at the end of Revelation 20 we do not have the Lord's Return, but the passing away of this physical Universe:
Revelation 20:11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And the events show this is an event that does not take place dring the Tribulation, nor during the Millennial Kingdom, but after these two periods are over:
Revelation 21
King James Version (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
So we cannot embrace the A-Millennial View without violating Scripture.
Kind of hard to have these events already to have been fulfilled. The heavens and the earth have not yet passed away, they do not pass away before the Millennial Kingdom, so we either maintain the Biblical Timeline or we trespass into questionable interpretive maneuvers.
Continued...
P
The Great White Throne is distinguished from events preceding the Millennial Kingdom:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So according to your own words, we have the Tribulation Martyrs raised from the dead, but the rest of the dead did not live again until the long time were finished.
Something has to be finished, my friend, we can't equate these two events, for there are two resurrections in view, and neither...
...are the Rapture of the Church.
So those spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ have only a thousand years? Or a "long time?"
One problem with that is that this is not according to Biblical Doctrine.
You have not yet been caught up, and your flesh has not been redeemed (glorified).
That is what happens in the First Resurrection.
And I will break here because I want to focus on the First Resurrection.
Continued...
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So according to your own words, we have the Tribulation Martyrs raised from the dead, but the rest of the dead did not live again until the long time were finished.
Something has to be finished, my friend, we can't equate these two events, for there are two resurrections in view, and neither...
...are the Rapture of the Church.
So those spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ have only a thousand years? Or a "long time?"
One problem with that is that this is not according to Biblical Doctrine.
You have not yet been caught up, and your flesh has not been redeemed (glorified).
That is what happens in the First Resurrection.
And I will break here because I want to focus on the First Resurrection.
Continued...
Don't be absurd. We are thinking from man's viewpoint not God's. If we cannot agree on the meaning of a verse for men it is a grey area It is in fact simply a matter of definition. Of course it isn't really a grey area to me. I know that I and the Holy Spirit are right. But in the eyes of others it is a grey area.
Or even sometimes both being right with differing slants. But in men's eyes that is a grey area.
yes unless they agree.
From the point of view of the disinterested external observer yes. Its a matter of definition.
But equally important is that we recognise how little we know when all is done. Our minds are finite. On of the sad things to me about chat is how little real humility there is on here. Each thinks of himself as a little god.
That is true. But when He does we must beware of getting over exalted and recognise that He is doing it equally for our opponents..
No one said he did. It is people on here who seem to think that it was limited to Paul
That is precisely what it means. We see but the outskirts of His ways.
Precisely. And how we will all laugh at ourselves when we realise how little we knew.
Ah that is the crunch. To the point that God means for us to understand it. Unfortunately we have a higher opinion of ourselves than God has
But views about what the Gospel is are a grey area from man's point of view as we see on here
Do you fully understand the doctrine of Christ.? I think not. I'll guarantee that you have all kinds of ideas which one day you will laugh at yourself for.
I realise that you may not be humble enough to see that yet. Hopefully you will in due time
Or even sometimes both being right with differing slants. But in men's eyes that is a grey area.
yes unless they agree.
From the point of view of the disinterested external observer yes. Its a matter of definition.
But equally important is that we recognise how little we know when all is done. Our minds are finite. On of the sad things to me about chat is how little real humility there is on here. Each thinks of himself as a little god.
That is true. But when He does we must beware of getting over exalted and recognise that He is doing it equally for our opponents..
No one said he did. It is people on here who seem to think that it was limited to Paul
That is precisely what it means. We see but the outskirts of His ways.
Precisely. And how we will all laugh at ourselves when we realise how little we knew.
Ah that is the crunch. To the point that God means for us to understand it. Unfortunately we have a higher opinion of ourselves than God has
But views about what the Gospel is are a grey area from man's point of view as we see on here
Do you fully understand the doctrine of Christ.? I think not. I'll guarantee that you have all kinds of ideas which one day you will laugh at yourself for.
I realise that you may not be humble enough to see that yet. Hopefully you will in due time