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P
Do you feel that my address of the issues was messy?
It's okay if you did, I would be curious though if you gave any consideration to the address concerning the First Resurrection, how that we know that the Resurrection called the First Resurrection in Revelation 20...is not First in sequence?
Do me a favor, review this and tell me what is messy, lol.
God bless.
It's okay if you did, I would be curious though if you gave any consideration to the address concerning the First Resurrection, how that we know that the Resurrection called the First Resurrection in Revelation 20...is not First in sequence?
Do me a favor, review this and tell me what is messy, lol.
God bless.
Last edited by a moderator:
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I would just encourage you to participate, because I have found that when we ask and are asked questions which test the positions we hold to, our views are either supported or cast into question. I see Forum discussion as a great awy to learn, even if we are only reading the discussions.
But it's better to participate. IF we have conviction on the positions we take there is no reason why we should be worried about expressing those views.
God bless.
But it's better to participate. IF we have conviction on the positions we take there is no reason why we should be worried about expressing those views.
God bless.
G
Does God mean for us to understand His Word?
"Yes, but only those who seriously and diligently seek the truth of His Word with the proper attitude and humility will understand it..."
God has 'designed' it this way on purpose so that only those who approach it properly will understand it. Greater humility, and a better attitude towards God and His Word, will yield a 'deeper' understanding...
"Yes, but only those who seriously and diligently seek the truth of His Word with the proper attitude and humility will understand it..."
God has 'designed' it this way on purpose so that only those who approach it properly will understand it. Greater humility, and a better attitude towards God and His Word, will yield a 'deeper' understanding...
P
Does God mean for us to understand His Word?
"Yes, but only those who seriously and diligently seek the truth of His Word with the proper attitude and humility will understand it..."
God has 'designed' it this way on purpose so that only those who approach it properly will understand it. Greater humility, and a better attitude towards God and His Word, will yield a 'deeper' understanding...
"Yes, but only those who seriously and diligently seek the truth of His Word with the proper attitude and humility will understand it..."
God has 'designed' it this way on purpose so that only those who approach it properly will understand it. Greater humility, and a better attitude towards God and His Word, will yield a 'deeper' understanding...
Scripture has always shown man his sin, and it still does that. The better we understand the righteousness of God, the better we understand just how far we miss that particular mark.
God bless.
K
God does not lie. He says if you ask, seek, and knock, the door of understanding will be opened unto you- that he who seeks finds. God is truth, and the bible says if you search with all your heart you will find Him. God purposely made the bible to where you have to dig deep for understanding, God wants you to study His word- daily. "Study to show thyself approved unto God." There is no private interpretation, scripture backs up scripture, the bible interprets itself.
As far as loopholes and grey areas, the bible says if it feels wrong to your conscience then for you it is sin. For example, the weaker brother whose conscience said it was wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The stronger brother knows that that meat came from God, and that idols are only shapes made from things also made by God, and that there is no real entity in that idol, so for him it is silly. But even though he is not eating it unto a false god, it is wrong of him to upset his weaker brother's conscience by eating it in front of him.
Conclusion: we follow the bible to the best of our ability and understanding, and ask God to lead our consciences about things the bible does not get specific enough about. We will be judged by the bible according to our individual abilities and effort.
As far as loopholes and grey areas, the bible says if it feels wrong to your conscience then for you it is sin. For example, the weaker brother whose conscience said it was wrong to eat meat sacrificed to idols. The stronger brother knows that that meat came from God, and that idols are only shapes made from things also made by God, and that there is no real entity in that idol, so for him it is silly. But even though he is not eating it unto a false god, it is wrong of him to upset his weaker brother's conscience by eating it in front of him.
Conclusion: we follow the bible to the best of our ability and understanding, and ask God to lead our consciences about things the bible does not get specific enough about. We will be judged by the bible according to our individual abilities and effort.
I don't believe in loopholes of sin. I don't believe in gray zones of understanding, except by way of human interpretation.I do believe in a mature and immature Christian's however. I believe God shares direct scripture on certain subjects, and principle directives in other areas of life not mentioned specifically, as well as the fact He has created certain truths to be self- evident {Axiom, or Axiomatic} But He shares with us in Scripture in principle areas of priorities we ought to live by. "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgement on disputable matters...." Romans 14:1-2. God, thru Jesus Christ in this principle is showing us the importance of preferring other's as more important than ourselves in our example and ministries, that Jesus demonstrated while here.
We also have to qualify the conscience as well. "....strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men." Acts 24:16. Our conscience is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit, it is a catalyst or a in-between messager of His directive if we place ourselves in His spirit. For the commands of God are actually given to the life of His Son in us. Consequently, to our human nature in which God's Son has been formed. Refer to: Gal. 4:19.
His commands are difficult, but they become divinely easy once we obey. Conscience is that ability within me that attaches itself to the highest standard I know, and then continually reminds me of what that standard demands that I do. It is the eye of the soul which looks out either toward God or toward what we regard as the highest Standard. So, be aware that this is why conscience is different in different people. If by way of Jesus Christ, I am in the habit of continually holding God's standard in front of me, my grunt worker-- the conscience, will always direct me to God's perfect law and indicate what I should do.
It is not about understanding first, which is the premise of this threads concerns, for God calls us to live by faith. The question is will I obey what it is God has shown me in His Spirit thus far? I have to make an effort to make my conscience so sensitive that I can live without offense toward anyone. I should be living in such perfect harmony with God's Son that the Spirit of my mind is being renewed through every circumstance of life, and that I may be able to quickly "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Rom. 12:2
God tells us He needs to be in every detail of our lives. Is my ear sensitive enough{ not to the sneaky unknown loopholes but} to His spirit that even a whisper I can gather in so I know what I should do? "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God..." Eph. 4:30.
He does not speak with a voice like thunder--His voice is so gentle that it is easy for us to ignore. And the only thing that keeps our conscience sensitive to Him is the habit of being open to God on the inside. This examination of the loopholes, I don't even fathom, for God tells me that when I begin to debate Him, stop immediately! Don't ask "Why can't I do this?" You are on the wrong track. When your "properly -hooked- up" conscience speaks, there is no room for debate. Whatever it is--drop it, and see that you keep your inner vision clear. God's Word and Spirit has no holes when used correctly in unison.
We also have to qualify the conscience as well. "....strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men." Acts 24:16. Our conscience is not Jesus or the Holy Spirit, it is a catalyst or a in-between messager of His directive if we place ourselves in His spirit. For the commands of God are actually given to the life of His Son in us. Consequently, to our human nature in which God's Son has been formed. Refer to: Gal. 4:19.
His commands are difficult, but they become divinely easy once we obey. Conscience is that ability within me that attaches itself to the highest standard I know, and then continually reminds me of what that standard demands that I do. It is the eye of the soul which looks out either toward God or toward what we regard as the highest Standard. So, be aware that this is why conscience is different in different people. If by way of Jesus Christ, I am in the habit of continually holding God's standard in front of me, my grunt worker-- the conscience, will always direct me to God's perfect law and indicate what I should do.
It is not about understanding first, which is the premise of this threads concerns, for God calls us to live by faith. The question is will I obey what it is God has shown me in His Spirit thus far? I have to make an effort to make my conscience so sensitive that I can live without offense toward anyone. I should be living in such perfect harmony with God's Son that the Spirit of my mind is being renewed through every circumstance of life, and that I may be able to quickly "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Rom. 12:2
God tells us He needs to be in every detail of our lives. Is my ear sensitive enough{ not to the sneaky unknown loopholes but} to His spirit that even a whisper I can gather in so I know what I should do? "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God..." Eph. 4:30.
He does not speak with a voice like thunder--His voice is so gentle that it is easy for us to ignore. And the only thing that keeps our conscience sensitive to Him is the habit of being open to God on the inside. This examination of the loopholes, I don't even fathom, for God tells me that when I begin to debate Him, stop immediately! Don't ask "Why can't I do this?" You are on the wrong track. When your "properly -hooked- up" conscience speaks, there is no room for debate. Whatever it is--drop it, and see that you keep your inner vision clear. God's Word and Spirit has no holes when used correctly in unison.
P
So we would conclude that it is not a loop-hole when the principle of sin arises for one brother or sister that is not present for those...of better understanding, of sin, right?
And the answer to removing that as a potential gray area? Scripture, right?
I agree with your conclusion, but point out that Scripture still remains there with the answer to what might be perceived as a gray area, but is actually taught as weakness of faith. Comforting to know that Scripture can strengthen our faith. God's Word can be seen as the source of faith from the beginning. And that is because what He has revealed for us has always been for our benefit.
God bless.
And the answer to removing that as a potential gray area? Scripture, right?
I agree with your conclusion, but point out that Scripture still remains there with the answer to what might be perceived as a gray area, but is actually taught as weakness of faith. Comforting to know that Scripture can strengthen our faith. God's Word can be seen as the source of faith from the beginning. And that is because what He has revealed for us has always been for our benefit.
God bless.
P
You make some great statements in this post, though a couple things I would not completely agree with.
For example:
While I would distinguish between our conscience and the leading of the Spirit of God, this is stated a little curiously. The "Life of His Son in us" is, in my view...Jesus Christ Himself, and while I agree that the commands of God go through that Messager (great way to state this, by the way), I see it as our conscience impacted by His presence. Whereby we could say that Jesus is our conscience. Not eradicating the distinction, but not separating them either, because if we have conscience separate from God, this would imply a state of rebellion against His leading.
I take a simple approach to sin: we can't be obedient to God in regards to sin in our life until He has shown us that something is sin. And even if we recognize something as sin, we are still dependent on the convicting ministry of the Lord for us to bring it into context, thus we are equipped by God to deal with that sin in our lives. But like most children, we can have a habit of rebelling against authority, so that as babes our potential to grieve the Spirit is higher than when we begin to mature. As children grow, they begin to realize that they are not going to win certain battles with the parent. As they grow older, they come to realize that when mom and dad say no...they mean it. No amount of arguing, crying, striving...is going to achieve a different result so that what they want to do (which through experience they already know conflicts with the will of the parents) is not going to be allowed. And when a child reaches a certain point, a certain level of maturity and understanding, they begin to realize the restrictions or guidance to a certain way of understanding...is for their own good.
In other words, they understand it is not a matter of restriction for the parent's pleasure or whim, but a matter of proper instruction. And that is, in my view, how it is in regards to our Heavenly Father training us up in the way we should go. And when we reach that stage where we acknowledge that His commands have our best interests at heart, rather than His, we are more apt to pay attention to what He has to say, rather than following our own desires or whims which do not have the benefit of being able to view the matter from the perspective of experience. We see that principle in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve's experience, through disobedience, drastically changed from an existence of Good to an existence of knowing (having an intimate relationship to) both good and evil.
When we disobey, like Adam and Eve, the consequences bring sorrow. Our conscience lacks the ability to recognize that which is harmful when we are babes, and our reliance on God within us to warn us is critical. He is in many ways doing exactly what the parent does for the young child, who needs someone to watch over them, and instruct them in matters they are unaware of. The young child does not understand what a hot stove can do, just as the babe in Christ does not understand what sin in their life can do.
And getting long here, so one other thing:
This is not the premise of the thread. The premise of the thread is that I view Scripture as not having gray areas and loop-holes, which are created by individuals that seem to think that Scripture is a buffet of concepts which can be strung together to create a personal faith.
I propose that every gray area suggested can be understood in the context of the passage and within the larger framework of the Word of God. This would not include issues which have not been revealed, it deals only with what has been revealed.
As far as this...
This thread could be considered "an examination of loop-holes," lol, the only problem being...no-one has presented any. Nothing valid, anyway.
And I don't think anyone will. And if they do, I think we will be able, through Scripture, to dismantle the loop-hole presented. One loop-hole was presented...
We cannot make the determined will of God, which was His will before the world was formed, a loop-hole.
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, as I said, you make a few great statements, and I would be remiss not to point out one of them:
God bless.
For example:
While I would distinguish between our conscience and the leading of the Spirit of God, this is stated a little curiously. The "Life of His Son in us" is, in my view...Jesus Christ Himself, and while I agree that the commands of God go through that Messager (great way to state this, by the way), I see it as our conscience impacted by His presence. Whereby we could say that Jesus is our conscience. Not eradicating the distinction, but not separating them either, because if we have conscience separate from God, this would imply a state of rebellion against His leading.
I take a simple approach to sin: we can't be obedient to God in regards to sin in our life until He has shown us that something is sin. And even if we recognize something as sin, we are still dependent on the convicting ministry of the Lord for us to bring it into context, thus we are equipped by God to deal with that sin in our lives. But like most children, we can have a habit of rebelling against authority, so that as babes our potential to grieve the Spirit is higher than when we begin to mature. As children grow, they begin to realize that they are not going to win certain battles with the parent. As they grow older, they come to realize that when mom and dad say no...they mean it. No amount of arguing, crying, striving...is going to achieve a different result so that what they want to do (which through experience they already know conflicts with the will of the parents) is not going to be allowed. And when a child reaches a certain point, a certain level of maturity and understanding, they begin to realize the restrictions or guidance to a certain way of understanding...is for their own good.
In other words, they understand it is not a matter of restriction for the parent's pleasure or whim, but a matter of proper instruction. And that is, in my view, how it is in regards to our Heavenly Father training us up in the way we should go. And when we reach that stage where we acknowledge that His commands have our best interests at heart, rather than His, we are more apt to pay attention to what He has to say, rather than following our own desires or whims which do not have the benefit of being able to view the matter from the perspective of experience. We see that principle in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve's experience, through disobedience, drastically changed from an existence of Good to an existence of knowing (having an intimate relationship to) both good and evil.
When we disobey, like Adam and Eve, the consequences bring sorrow. Our conscience lacks the ability to recognize that which is harmful when we are babes, and our reliance on God within us to warn us is critical. He is in many ways doing exactly what the parent does for the young child, who needs someone to watch over them, and instruct them in matters they are unaware of. The young child does not understand what a hot stove can do, just as the babe in Christ does not understand what sin in their life can do.
And getting long here, so one other thing:
This is not the premise of the thread. The premise of the thread is that I view Scripture as not having gray areas and loop-holes, which are created by individuals that seem to think that Scripture is a buffet of concepts which can be strung together to create a personal faith.
I propose that every gray area suggested can be understood in the context of the passage and within the larger framework of the Word of God. This would not include issues which have not been revealed, it deals only with what has been revealed.
As far as this...
This thread could be considered "an examination of loop-holes," lol, the only problem being...no-one has presented any. Nothing valid, anyway.
And I don't think anyone will. And if they do, I think we will be able, through Scripture, to dismantle the loop-hole presented. One loop-hole was presented...
We cannot make the determined will of God, which was His will before the world was formed, a loop-hole.
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, as I said, you make a few great statements, and I would be remiss not to point out one of them:
God bless.
(again, long post... I'll talk about what I think are the main points, if you want more on something, please let me know...)
God doesn't say it's the whole reason...
I think 1 samuel 16 is interesting here... God counsels samuel to give a reason to saul, but it's only a partial reason...
I can allow the possibility that there's more... I used the word 'formula' in the ten reasons thread... saying imo there may not be one...
well, imo, then I misunderstood what you wanted to do with this thread...
the issue I raised (I think) was "are there loopholes that God knows about but you or I don't?"...
so, imo, it's not about what I can find in the scriptures...
If the thread is only about what you or I (but not God) can find in the scriptures, I'll have to re-think what assertions I want to make here...
God bless you, too!
God doesn't say it's the whole reason...
I think 1 samuel 16 is interesting here... God counsels samuel to give a reason to saul, but it's only a partial reason...
I can allow the possibility that there's more... I used the word 'formula' in the ten reasons thread... saying imo there may not be one...
well, imo, then I misunderstood what you wanted to do with this thread...
the issue I raised (I think) was "are there loopholes that God knows about but you or I don't?"...
so, imo, it's not about what I can find in the scriptures...
If the thread is only about what you or I (but not God) can find in the scriptures, I'll have to re-think what assertions I want to make here...
God bless you, too!
P
The central issue revolves around the mentality that promotes a view of Scripture that man cannot ever understand it, which is contrary to the very reason it was given.
There is a primary reason for promoting that mentality: it makes it easier to control the beliefs of others.
Many people buy into that mentality, thinking that their Pastors, Priests, Ministers, or whatever spiritual leader they have for themselves...are the only ones that can possibly understand Scripture. Thus they go to them, rather than to God and His Word. Many of those who do present a slothful and neglectful character, content to get a weekly "dose of God," rather than personally seeking Him out.
And if half the people who attend any given group actually understood the difference between what the Word of God teaches and what their "spiritual leadership" teaches...they would find another fellowship, lol.
If we went into any denomination and gave a pop quiz on the distinctive Doctrines of that fellowship, most would probably fail. Many attend their fellowship based on the name, regardless of doctrinal positions.
So the thread is designed to address whether God gave revelation to actually reveal, or if it is a coded message which is given only to a select few.
Yes, the thread is limited to Scripture, because that is the focal point.
We are focusing on what God has revealed, not what He has not. And whether it was meant to be understood as a singular message with singular intent, or if it has multiple meaning from which many different "Faiths" can be derived. My position is that there is singular intent with a singular message that has a singular focus, God's Redemptive Plan through Christ. I believe God means for us to understand what He has revealed, rather than make it mean what we want it to, and if we acknowledge that Scripture can mean one thing for one person and something entirely different for another, then we deny the singularity of purpose that the word revelation demands.
God bless.
P
(again, long post... I'll talk about what I think are the main points, if you want more on something, please let me know...)
Originally Posted by P1LGR1M
Stop. lol
Would you just acknowledge that in regards to Scripture that God has revealed why Adam and Eve were not to eat of the fruit?
God doesn't say it's the whole reason...
I think 1 samuel 16 is interesting here... God counsels samuel to give a reason to saul, but it's only a partial reason...
Stop. lol
Would you just acknowledge that in regards to Scripture that God has revealed why Adam and Eve were not to eat of the fruit?
God doesn't say it's the whole reason...
I think 1 samuel 16 is interesting here... God counsels samuel to give a reason to saul, but it's only a partial reason...
All of Scripture maintains a singular focus, that is, Man's Redemption.
If we were to get technical, we could assert a formula of sorts: man is sinful, sin brings death, God makes provision for the sinner.
In the Old Testament that provision was vicarious remission and atonement that involved animals dying instead of men. In the New the Redemptive Plan of Eternity Past is established and vicarious death has in place Jesus Christ as the Once For All Sacrifice that vicarious animal death only pictured.
Here is part of the formula:
Hebrews 9:22
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Scripture's consistency breaks down if this part of the "formula" (and that has such a negative connotation, lol) is not duly noted.
Man will sin, and thus bring upon himself death. That death is revealed in Scripture more fully as eternal separation, rather than just one being separated from his body as the Old Testament focuses on.
And I'll break this up to make the posts shorter, lol.
Continued...
P
It's not really relevant, though I will say it is my view that there are not.
We could speculate, as some do, that "in the end God will save everyone, and no-one will go into eternal separation/punishment."
Nice thought, but the problem with that is that this is not what God has revealed to mankind in His Word. If God reversed His Word at any time, this would conflict with the Character of God as revealed in Scripture.
Instead of God, we would have something more akin to a Politician. Mankind can alter their positions, because mankind is subject to not only growing as they become wiser, but falling into sin. A Politician may make great promises and be completely sincere, but, lapse in fulfilling those promises because he has been corrupted.
The same cannot be said of God.
Continued...
P
Then you change the scope of the thread.
Anyone can, and many do, speculate about what God has not revealed. But it is my position that He intends for us not only to understand what He has revealed, but that we are to be diligent in going about that.
There would be far fewer denominations if more Christians did that.
Let me ask you, Dan, is it really a good idea to "make assertions" about something that is admittedly not known?
I think we can postulate in regards to certain issues based on what is revealed, but I don't see that we can be dogmatic about those things like we can about what has been revealed.
We can, for example, be dogmatic that Christ's death obtained eternal redemption for us, and that prior to that we had a temporary provision that did not obtain eternal redemption.
So it is a little counter-productive for the scope of the thread, which seeks to examine what has been revealed, to introduce that which has not been revealed.
Here is a little speculation as an example: I think we, Saints, will have a ministry similar to that of Angels in this (and prior) Age/s. I can produce the Scripture that I think implies that, but, there is no clear statement that I can produce and say, "This makes it a certainty."
So I hope these posts better explain the scope of the thread," and I would say that a thread dealing with the speculations we might have, such as the one I just gave as an example, would probably make for interesting discussion. I think that much of that speculation will be addressed by Scripture, though, which would just point out that the Word of God covers all areas of our lives and our thought processes.
Again, thanks for the participation.
God bless.
Anyone can, and many do, speculate about what God has not revealed. But it is my position that He intends for us not only to understand what He has revealed, but that we are to be diligent in going about that.
There would be far fewer denominations if more Christians did that.
Let me ask you, Dan, is it really a good idea to "make assertions" about something that is admittedly not known?
I think we can postulate in regards to certain issues based on what is revealed, but I don't see that we can be dogmatic about those things like we can about what has been revealed.
We can, for example, be dogmatic that Christ's death obtained eternal redemption for us, and that prior to that we had a temporary provision that did not obtain eternal redemption.
So it is a little counter-productive for the scope of the thread, which seeks to examine what has been revealed, to introduce that which has not been revealed.
Here is a little speculation as an example: I think we, Saints, will have a ministry similar to that of Angels in this (and prior) Age/s. I can produce the Scripture that I think implies that, but, there is no clear statement that I can produce and say, "This makes it a certainty."
So I hope these posts better explain the scope of the thread," and I would say that a thread dealing with the speculations we might have, such as the one I just gave as an example, would probably make for interesting discussion. I think that much of that speculation will be addressed by Scripture, though, which would just point out that the Word of God covers all areas of our lives and our thought processes.
Again, thanks for the participation.
God bless.