Happy St. Anna and St James Day!
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I'm not an expert on saints.
This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica, online:
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Saints Anne and Joachim,
(flourished 1st century bc, Palestine; Western feast day July 26, Eastern feast day July 25),
the parents of the Virgin Mary, according to tradition derived from certain apocryphal writings.
Information concerning their lives and names is found in the 2nd-century-ad Protevangelium of James (“First Gospel of James”) and the 3rd-century-ad Evangelium de nativitate Mariae (“Gospel of the Nativity of Mary”). According to these sources, Anne (Hebrew: Ḥannah) was born in Bethlehem, Judaea.
She married Joachim, and, although they shared a wealthy and devout life at Nazareth, they eventually lamented their childlessness. Joachim, reproached at the Temple for his sterility, retreated into the countryside to pray, while Anne, grieved by his disappearance and by her barrenness, solemnly promised God that, if given a child, she would dedicate it to the Lord’s service. Both received the vision of an angel, who announced that Anne would conceive and bear a most wondrous child.
The couple rejoiced at the birth of their daughter, whom Anne named Mary. When the child was three years old, Joachim and Anne, in fulfillment of her divine promise, brought Mary to the Temple at Jerusalem, where they left her to be brought up.
This event became so important in church doctrine that by 1585 Pope Sixtus V included in the Western church calendar the liturgical feast of the Presentation of the Virgin Mary (November 21). Although this festival originated early in the East, probably at Jerusalem in 543, its first Western observance was recorded in England in the 11th century.
The account of their lives startlingly parallels the Old Testament story of the barren Hannah and her conception of Samuel (1 Samuel 1). According to later legends, Joachim died shortly after Mary’s birth, and Anne, encouraged by the Holy Spirit, remarried. Anne’s cult was fervent in the Eastern church as early as the 4th century, and in the early 8th century Pope Constantine probably introduced her devotion to Rome. Joachim’s cult was introduced to the West in the 15th century.
The Protevangelium became the foundation for establishing the liturgical feasts of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary (September 8) and the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary (December 8). Many churches, the first dating from the 6th century, were built in Anne’s honour.
Anne’s cult became extremely popular in the Middle Ages and influenced such theologians as Jean de Gerson, Konrad Wimpinar, and Johann Eck (who endorsed the interpolation that Anne in her alleged subsequent marriages became the grandmother of the Apostles John and James [sons of Zebedee], Simon, Jude [Judas], James, son of Alphaeus, and also of James [“the Lord’s brother”]).
Martin Luther and others vehemently attacked the cult of Anne, which was then promoted by post-Reformation popes. Eastern literature on Anne, going back to the 4th century, does not follow the fantastic legends of medieval Western tradition. Anne is the patron saint of Brittany and Canada and of women in labour.
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This is from the Encyclopedia Britannica, online:
nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Saints Anne and Joachim,
(flourished 1st century bc, Palestine; Western feast day July 26, Eastern feast day July 25),
the parents of the Virgin Mary, according to tradition derived from certain apocryphal writings.
Information concerning their lives and names is found in the 2nd-century-ad Protevangelium of James (“First Gospel of James”) and the 3rd-century-ad Evangelium de nativitate Mariae (“Gospel of the Nativity of Mary”). According to these sources, Anne (Hebrew: Ḥannah) was born in Bethlehem, Judaea.
She married Joachim, and, although they shared a wealthy and devout life at Nazareth, they eventually lamented their childlessness. Joachim, reproached at the Temple for his sterility, retreated into the countryside to pray, while Anne, grieved by his disappearance and by her barrenness, solemnly promised God that, if given a child, she would dedicate it to the Lord’s service. Both received the vision of an angel, who announced that Anne would conceive and bear a most wondrous child.
The couple rejoiced at the birth of their daughter, whom Anne named Mary. When the child was three years old, Joachim and Anne, in fulfillment of her divine promise, brought Mary to the Temple at Jerusalem, where they left her to be brought up.
This event became so important in church doctrine that by 1585 Pope Sixtus V included in the Western church calendar the liturgical feast of the Presentation of the Virgin Mary (November 21). Although this festival originated early in the East, probably at Jerusalem in 543, its first Western observance was recorded in England in the 11th century.
The account of their lives startlingly parallels the Old Testament story of the barren Hannah and her conception of Samuel (1 Samuel 1). According to later legends, Joachim died shortly after Mary’s birth, and Anne, encouraged by the Holy Spirit, remarried. Anne’s cult was fervent in the Eastern church as early as the 4th century, and in the early 8th century Pope Constantine probably introduced her devotion to Rome. Joachim’s cult was introduced to the West in the 15th century.
The Protevangelium became the foundation for establishing the liturgical feasts of the Nativity of the Virgin Mary (September 8) and the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary (December 8). Many churches, the first dating from the 6th century, were built in Anne’s honour.
Anne’s cult became extremely popular in the Middle Ages and influenced such theologians as Jean de Gerson, Konrad Wimpinar, and Johann Eck (who endorsed the interpolation that Anne in her alleged subsequent marriages became the grandmother of the Apostles John and James [sons of Zebedee], Simon, Jude [Judas], James, son of Alphaeus, and also of James [“the Lord’s brother”]).
Martin Luther and others vehemently attacked the cult of Anne, which was then promoted by post-Reformation popes. Eastern literature on Anne, going back to the 4th century, does not follow the fantastic legends of medieval Western tradition. Anne is the patron saint of Brittany and Canada and of women in labour.
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Sully,
You're speaking to Magenta above.
I notice that this is done here on these threads.
Posters speak to each other.
Don't understand that, but I'd like to answer you...
Have you ever studied athropology?
I have. Very little. A long time ago.
But I remember this.
Rituals keep tribes and communities together.
They keep societies together.
Almos everything we do is a ritual.
If the early Church (pre-300's) did not start rituals, do you really think we'd be here today?
If YOU go to service on Sunday, pay attention next time.
It starts out with the Pastor greeting everyone, praising the Lord, etc.
Then a song or a few songs.
Then he might ask for a testimony.
Then he'll do a sermon.
THESE ARE RITUALS.
The entire service experience is A RITUAL.
All churches have them.
It keeps the congregation feeling like a Group.
It's not a bad thing...
You're speaking to Magenta above.
I notice that this is done here on these threads.
Posters speak to each other.
Don't understand that, but I'd like to answer you...
Have you ever studied athropology?
I have. Very little. A long time ago.
But I remember this.
Rituals keep tribes and communities together.
They keep societies together.
Almos everything we do is a ritual.
If the early Church (pre-300's) did not start rituals, do you really think we'd be here today?
If YOU go to service on Sunday, pay attention next time.
It starts out with the Pastor greeting everyone, praising the Lord, etc.
Then a song or a few songs.
Then he might ask for a testimony.
Then he'll do a sermon.
THESE ARE RITUALS.
The entire service experience is A RITUAL.
All churches have them.
It keeps the congregation feeling like a Group.
It's not a bad thing...
This is true.
Mary was about 15 or 16.
Joseph might have been about 30 or slightly more.
He might have had other children, it's not known for sure.
He died before Jesus began His ministry because he is never spoken of.
If Joseph was 30 when he Married Mary, he would have been 61 or more when Jesus
began His ministry.
If you just read about this, I wonder if you've ever thought of the following...
(I don't mean to imply that you don't know this)
What is means to be bethrothed.
What kind of a man was Joseph?
He accepted Mary in an expectant state.
What did this mean for him?
She could have been killed but were it not for him....
It's interesting to study.
Mary was about 15 or 16.
Joseph might have been about 30 or slightly more.
He might have had other children, it's not known for sure.
He died before Jesus began His ministry because he is never spoken of.
If Joseph was 30 when he Married Mary, he would have been 61 or more when Jesus
began His ministry.
If you just read about this, I wonder if you've ever thought of the following...
(I don't mean to imply that you don't know this)
What is means to be bethrothed.
What kind of a man was Joseph?
He accepted Mary in an expectant state.
What did this mean for him?
She could have been killed but were it not for him....
It's interesting to study.
Posters make snide remarks to each other.
Does this seem very Christianly of you?
We're supposed to be DIFFERENT from the rest of the world?
How are YOU different?
And your reply to me was another snide remark
You KNEW VERY WELL what I meant, but you took advantage to make an unseemly remark again.
You must be OSAS and a NO WORKER FOR SALVATION.
Anything seems to be OK for this Group of believers....
Does this seem very Christianly of you?
We're supposed to be DIFFERENT from the rest of the world?
How are YOU different?
And your reply to me was another snide remark
You KNEW VERY WELL what I meant, but you took advantage to make an unseemly remark again.
You must be OSAS and a NO WORKER FOR SALVATION.
Anything seems to be OK for this Group of believers....
It's God's timetable. Why does it spook you?
Psalm 104:19
He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
Psalm 104:19
He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
We're two mature, grown people Sully.
If you don't now what's going on, I'm afraid I can't explain it very well.
You might want to take a second look at these posts:
no. 62 You make a rather snide remark to a poster, as if WE are better than Catholics, or at least YOU.
no. 66 Even though you made a snide remark, I gave you a serious answer as to why rituals are important.
no. 68 You ignored the entire post and picked out ONE SENTENCE to which you made another snide remark.
no. 70 my post to you
no. 73 my post to you
and then the above.
I'll explain by saying that I find it very objectionable to have to read two posters that are making snide remarks to each other about another poster or about an idea.
We're here to share our ideas and to speak about biblical principles and not to be mean to each other and to act like children.
It's not that I'm trying to change the world. Just pointing this out.
Your remark which got this started, was about a Church that believes and preaches the same Jesus you believe in.
They have doctrine wrong, that's no reason to denegrate them. Many churches have their doctrine wrong.
And to whom was the comment made? To a poster who hates the Catholic Church with a passion that is wasted on hate.
If this energy was directed toward LOVE instead of HATE, it would be a wonderful testimony for Christianity.
You know very well I'm not saying that posters cannot speak to each other.
I just wish the remarks were not so unpleasant, and sometimes they are even of another poster (like ME for instance!)
Sorry I carried on, but you did ask.
Tomorrow...
If you don't now what's going on, I'm afraid I can't explain it very well.
You might want to take a second look at these posts:
no. 62 You make a rather snide remark to a poster, as if WE are better than Catholics, or at least YOU.
no. 66 Even though you made a snide remark, I gave you a serious answer as to why rituals are important.
no. 68 You ignored the entire post and picked out ONE SENTENCE to which you made another snide remark.
no. 70 my post to you
no. 73 my post to you
and then the above.
I'll explain by saying that I find it very objectionable to have to read two posters that are making snide remarks to each other about another poster or about an idea.
We're here to share our ideas and to speak about biblical principles and not to be mean to each other and to act like children.
It's not that I'm trying to change the world. Just pointing this out.
Your remark which got this started, was about a Church that believes and preaches the same Jesus you believe in.
They have doctrine wrong, that's no reason to denegrate them. Many churches have their doctrine wrong.
And to whom was the comment made? To a poster who hates the Catholic Church with a passion that is wasted on hate.
If this energy was directed toward LOVE instead of HATE, it would be a wonderful testimony for Christianity.
You know very well I'm not saying that posters cannot speak to each other.
I just wish the remarks were not so unpleasant, and sometimes they are even of another poster (like ME for instance!)
Sorry I carried on, but you did ask.
Tomorrow...
Where in Luke 1:35 does it say that?
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Mary was a woman chosen by God to carry Jesus Christ in her womb. She rejoiced!
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Savior from what... her sin?
She brought her sin offering to the priest. She was ceremonially unclean according to the law of Moses. She was a sinner just like you and me.
Luke 2:22-24
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.
Leviticus 12:8
And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”
Btw,.....
God could have chosen any women. His choice. He picked a virgin and a sinner (Mary).
Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Did you know that she was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (her Savior) at Pentecost?
Acts 1:12-14
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 2:1-4
On the day of Pentecost[SUP]a[/SUP] all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages,[SUP]b[/SUP] as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
Hypo-statically speaking? 100% man and 100% God.
Not exactly, here's why.
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
In your theological assumption you are applying His flesh (%100 man) that has a beginning to His %100 God who has no beginning. To make Mary the mother of God. The %100 God of Jesus Christ has no beginning and no end.
That's what you are assuming here. As it appears.
Big theological question indeed!
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Mary was a woman chosen by God to carry Jesus Christ in her womb. She rejoiced!
Luke 1:47
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Savior from what... her sin?
She brought her sin offering to the priest. She was ceremonially unclean according to the law of Moses. She was a sinner just like you and me.
Luke 2:22-24
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; 23(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
24And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.Leviticus 12:8
And if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean.”
Btw,.....
God could have chosen any women. His choice. He picked a virgin and a sinner (Mary).
Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Did you know that she was saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (her Savior) at Pentecost?
Acts 1:12-14
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
Acts 2:1-4
On the day of Pentecost[SUP]a[/SUP] all the believers were meeting together in one place. 2Suddenly, there was a sound from heaven like the roaring of a mighty windstorm, and it filled the house where they were sitting. 3Then, what looked like flames or tongues of fire appeared and settled on each of them. 4And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages,[SUP]b[/SUP] as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.
Hypo-statically speaking? 100% man and 100% God.
Not exactly, here's why.
Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
In your theological assumption you are applying His flesh (%100 man) that has a beginning to His %100 God who has no beginning. To make Mary the mother of God. The %100 God of Jesus Christ has no beginning and no end.
That's what you are assuming here. As it appears.
Big theological question indeed!
my goodness, I think the wheels have fallen off.....
all Christians are saints... scriptural.
There is no place in scripture that authorizes anyone to "appoint" or "title" someone a "Saint", as a special station above other Christians.
Thus, the RCC practice is unscriptural, unfounded, and un-whatever else you wish....
all Christians are saints... scriptural.
There is no place in scripture that authorizes anyone to "appoint" or "title" someone a "Saint", as a special station above other Christians.
Thus, the RCC practice is unscriptural, unfounded, and un-whatever else you wish....