Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Our Bibles don't say specifically and my guess would be Holy Spirit that reveals all things to believers:
Jn 16:13 ' When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future'.

Yes, the Holy Spirit will tell us all things we need to know at the right time, but obviously not all at once and there are still mysteries beyond our understanding that we can't know.

Why does the Bible not say that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit then? I wouldn't guess that the Restrainer is Him then. I'd wait and see who it really is for sure.

❧

 

[GaryA]

Could you kindly show us where in Scripture THE ENTIRE CHURCH IS BEHEADED?

Sure - but you already know the verses - because they tell us what you said here:

Because that is what happens to the Tribulation saints.

Yep - that is what the Bible says...

(Of course, the Bible does indicate that there will be some still alive when the Lord appears at the Second Coming of Christ. And, this does not conflict with Revelation 13:15.)

Of course since there is no such Scripture, it means that you would rather cling to your false ideas than abandon them for the truth.

Do you realize that - from my perspective - the last part of this statement describes you perfectly?

We need to note that people with false beliefs never give them up. They are more "precious" than the truth. Which is rather perverse, but that's the way it is.

Yep - that is the hard-core 'pre-trib' folks for sure - hits the nail right on the head...

 

[GaryA]

How long are we going to be in the times of the gentiles?

Until the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Yes, the Holy Spirit will tell us all things we need to know at the right time, but obviously not all at once and there are still mysteries beyond our understanding that we can't know.

Why does the Bible not say that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit then? I wouldn't guess that the Restrainer is Him then. I'd wait and see who it really is for sure.

❧

Well, it's not like I'm betting on it, lol, and I always have an open mind on things that aren't 100% clear. Thx though for the advise.

 

[DaninNY]

There is a small group of them here. At first I thought it was hilarious but they are quite serious.

Re-read Genesis 1. Draw the world as you read. According to the Bible, the Sun, moon, and stars are IN the firmament. Above that firmament is water. In about 20 Bible verses it is clearly stated that the earth sits on it's foundation, IMMOVABLE. That means it does not move. If you take the Bible as completely true, there is no way that we live on a spinning ball.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The end of the 490 years marked the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

Nope. = )

Many people assume, as you are assuming here, that the phrase "the Times of the Gentiles" refers to [something equivalent to saying] the Church age (i.e. after the Cross) when the Gentiles were able to be included in the faith, in the first century (or however you wanna put it).

But that is not what the phrase "the Times of the Gentiles" is referring to.

Instead, "the Times of the Gentiles" refers to Gentile domination over Israel, starting back in 606bc with Neb's "dream / statue / image" (with Neb as "head of gold"), and which will not be concluded until the end of the future tribulation period [7 yrs] at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth (Rev19; Matt24:29-31; Dan2:35c; Dan7:[25,]27; and where Rom11:26-27 [re: Israel, future] connects with both Isa27:9,12-13[/Matt24:29-31] and the timing-prophecy of Daniel 9:24[,25-27] which is explicitly stated in that passage to be "[_____ (timing issue)] are determined upon THY [Daniel's] people, and upon THY [Daniel's] holy city").





This ^ is WHY it is important to notice that Daniel 9:25-27 is written SEQUENTIALLY.


That is, that the (1) "shall Messiah be CUT OFF" comes first in the sequence; then...
(2) "the people OF the prince THAT SHALL COME [/COMING] shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" comes next in the sequence (i.e. 70ad events; Jesus spoke of this in Lk19:41-44 [said ON what we call Palm Sunday], in Matt24:2/Mk13:2/Lk21:6, as well as in Matt22:7); then...
(3) what comes NEXT sequentially in the Dan9:25-27 [time-]prophecy is, "[re: 'the prince THAT SHALL COME [/COMING]'] he shall confirm the covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK" (note: Jesus did not "confirm the covenant with the many FOR ONE WEEK"--and the "69 Weeks" [total] concluded on the very day that He SAID what He said on Palm Sunday, in Lk19:41-44 [re: "the city / Jerusalem"] and DID what He did on Palm Sunday [i.e. Zech9:9 "thy king cometh unto thee [re: "unto Jerusalem / the city"]"--BOTH matters having to do with "THY [Daniel's] people and... THY holy city [/Jerusalem]"... the Subject matter of the TIMING-PROPHECY in Dan9:24-27); then...
(4) what concludes the whole timing-prophecy (Dan9:24-27) is Christ's Second Coming to the earth, putting an END to the Jerusalem being "TRODDEN-DOWN / TRODDEN-UNDER-FOOT OF the Gentiles" (i.e. Gentile domination over Israel [Neb as "head of gold" and all following that is connected with that "head"], aka "the TIMES of the Gentiles [be fulfilled]," under present discussion... which is a distinct matter from that of the phrase "[UNTIL] the FULNESS of the Gentiles [be come in - G1525]" [i.e. involving the "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL...]" / of Israel... a distinct timing matter from that of the other.)





Again, because Daniel 9:24 [part of the 'timing-prophecy'] connects with both Romans 11:26-27 and Isaiah 27:9,12-13[/Matt24:29-31], this shows that it DOES extend to the "future" (to us) time-frame... Unless you want to agree with the Full Preterists that say Matt24:29-31 already took place in the first century (surrounding the 70ad events Uh, no.)

= )

 

[Zandar]

One day I'm going to look this subject up in the Bible. Maybe.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Komentaja said:
How long are we going to be in the times of the gentiles?

Until the Second Coming of Christ.

Agreed (as to its timing issue).

DISagree as to its meaning and definition... because it is not referring to the time when Gentiles come to faith (i.e. the Church age, commencing after the Cross... ), but rather refers to Jerusalem being "TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL..." which speaks of Gentile domination over Israel (starting in 606/5bc with Neb as "head of gold" [and his "dream / statue / image"]... and all that connects with THAT... including the beast [and AC])... See again my Post #186.

 

[GaryA]

@TheDivineWatermark - nope, sorry, not buying it...

(We will just have to disagree.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

the video is refering to yet another pre trib rapture date 2011 which never happened hence where still here.
Then there's all the other dates.
It shows how pre tribers become decieved.

It would've been helpful if you had mentioned this video is in reference to Harold Camping's failed rapture prediction for 2011. You have to go to the actual YouTube page to see this. The video says May 1, 2011 but not everyone knows what this means.

Right. Harold Camping was not a "pre-tribber"... From my understanding, he was an Historicist, as was William Miller with his own "1844" incorrect prediction--both of whom based their guesses on the incorrect use of the biblical phrase "1260 days," which their faulty "interpretational method" [the Historicist] changes into "1260 YEARS".
No wonder they had misunderstood what the text actually says, and consequently flubbed up royally. = )

But again, neither were "pre-tribbers"... so there's that.








Here's a brief blurb from Wikipedia spelling out Camping's general viewpoint (which is clearly NOT "pre-trib"):

[quoting Wiki]

"American Christian radio host Harold Camping stated that the rapture and Judgment Day would take place on May 21, 2011, and that the end of the world would take place five months later on October 21, 2011."

[end quoting]





... um, yeah... that is nothing like the "pre-trib" viewpoint.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@GaryA , do you believe the "mikron chronon G3398 G5550" [duration of time] in Rev20:3, the time involved as to when Satan will be loosed out from his prison after the 1000 yrs, can/should be equated to the duration of time "chronon mikron G5550 G3398" that *you* are saying the "souls under the altar" (Rev6:11) are told "they shall rest yet" for, since the same words [in the same book, Revelation] are used in each of these passages (both in Rev)?

In other words, will Satan be "loosed" to exist (and do what the text states in Rev20:3, after the MK age) the equivalent span of time as that of when "the Dark Ages" commenced until the time that future "saints" should be killed as they were, concludes?? Like, a really long time??

The 'Church' had 'tribulation saints' back in the Dark Ages ("souls under the altar") and will have 'tribulation saints' in the future ("that should be killed as they were").

I'm not finding the words "mikron chronon / chronon mikron" [G3398 G5550] to carry such a meaning, to be honest.

And one would think that "within the same book" [/author] the two places it's used would have similar meaning, rather than vastly differing meanings.

Thoughts?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The 'Pope' in particular - no. The 'Roman Empire' / 'Holy Roman Empire' / 'Roman Catholic Church' - yes.

I believe the 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is referring to the time frame of 538-1798 when the HRE/RCC "ruled the earth" and persecuted the saints.

Here's what I see.

Just like the word "years" (in Scripture) when used in conjunction with any number ["____ years"] always means THAT MANY "years" (i.e. the writer wants the reader to picture "THAT MANY years"), so also with the word "months" ["____ months" always means THAT MANY "months"];



...and I'm wondering whether or not you see a connection between Daniel 7:21's "the same horn [i.e. king] made war with the saints and prevailed against them" to that of Rev13:7's "And it was given unto him to make war against the saints, and to overcome them..." (as I see them connecting), because not only does Daniel call that person a "horn [i.e. king]," but also describes that individual person in the preceding verse (Dan7:20) as, "whose look was more stout than his fellows" (that is, an individual person, rather than something like an entity spanning hundreds of years, like you are suggesting... when you say it's "the HRE/RCC").
How do you explain this?

= )

 

[GaryA]

"1260 days," which their faulty "interpretational method" [the Historicist] changes into "1260 YEARS".

For what it is worth...

It is my general belief that 'days' is always 'days'. Other words used (e.g. - weeks, months) may "translate" to 'years' in some contexts; however, if a verse/passage actually uses the word 'days', it means actual literal days.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Other words used (e.g. - weeks, months) may "translate" to 'years' in some contexts;

"Weeks" does, coz in the wording of Daniel 9, it doesn't translate to "weeks" as we know it in English, but rather, as [the word] "sevens" (so "70 sevens are determined upon..."). In this case, "context" determines "seven [sets of] _____" (days or years or whatever...).



For the word "months," this is not so.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The word used in Dan9:24 (and further in that context) -

"shabua H7620" - Strong's Hebrew: 7620. שְׁבֻעַ (shabua) -- a period of seven (days, years), heptad, week (biblehub.com)




The word for "month" - H2320 - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2320.htm

 

[GaryA]

"Weeks" does, coz in the wording of Daniel 9, it doesn't translate to "weeks" as we know it in English, but rather, as [the word] "sevens" (so "70 sevens are determined upon..."). In this case, "context" determines "seven [sets of] _____" (days or years or whatever...).

Yes Yes Yes - you know what I mean - I am referring to cases where the word "translates" to something other than what we understand that particular word ('week', 'month', etc.) to mean the way we use it...

For the word "months," this is not so.

I believe it is in certain verses/passages/contexts - which I do not plan to get into right now because I am on my work lunch break and do not have the time for it - perhaps tonight - maybe...?

 

[GaryA]

Perhaps "translates" was not the best word to use - I just mean that the English-translated word 'weeks', for example, is really referring to 'years' (seven per 'week' in this case) in actual real time span. ('months' = 30 years per month according to the Jewish calendar and the 'day=year' principle)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes Yes Yes - you know what I mean - I am referring to cases where the word "translates" to something other than what we understand that particular word ('week', 'month', etc.) to mean the way we use it...

You're not grasping what I'm pointing out...

... that it is inherent in the word itself ("shabua" = 'sevens')... "a set of seven ___" (days or years or...); This matter is NOT the case with the word "month/months" and we cannot just say, hey, let's make it MEAN "years" instead. That doesn't work with this word, see... because it does not inherently carry this meaning (whereas the other word under discussion DOES)

 

[GaryA]

You're not grasping what I'm pointing out...

... that it is inherent in the word itself ("shabua" = 'sevens')... "a set of seven ___" (days or years or...); This matter is NOT the case with the word "month/months" and we cannot just say, hey, let's make it MEAN "years" instead. That doesn't work with this word, see... because it does not inherently carry this meaning (whereas the other word under discussion DOES)

I understand perfectly what you are saying, but we will have to discuss it later...

Have a nice rest-of-your-day!

 

[DaninNY]

Nobody is left behind. That's extra-biblical pre-trib narrative. From scripture we know that there are saints on earth during the tribulation. We don't know that they only came to faith during that time. No verse indicates that.
Believers, now and during the tribulation are all part of the same body of believers.

Look at the Bible without filtering it through the pretrib philosophy to see the truth.

I agree with your take if I understand you correctly. To incorporate the PT rapture, one must twist so many Bible verses into a pretzel