Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

[Lucy-Pevensie]

... I do believe the devil has an interest in propagating it.

I've been resisting that thought for a long time. I don't want to be the cause of internal strife.
But in recent years the true face pretribulationsim is being revealed. It really looks like an "itiching ears" teaching.
A latter days deception and even worse, a possible cause of saints falling away from the faith.

 

[AndyC]

explain why those who come to believe after the rapture will die a horrible death .

In Revelation 13 below, those who refuse the MOB will be killed. Im sure some will be able to hide from the beast, but the majority of those who come to faith during the tribulation will be killed for refusing to take the MOB.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[AndyC]

I've been resisting that thought for a long time. I don't want to be the cause of internal strife.
But in recent years the true face pretribulationsim is being revealed. It really looks like an "itiching ears" teaching.
A latter days deception and even worse, a possible cause of saints falling away from the faith.

If you are a believer, yes, some can be mislead by numerous false teachings, but even then, OSAS, how can you give Jesus back the free gift of salvation to those who believe in the One sent by the Father?

Some day soon, you will be happily surprised when in a flash, or in the twinkling of an eye, you have departed, and are in the presence of Him.

 

[Beckie]

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[Evmur]

In Revelation 13 below, those who refuse the MOB will be killed. Im sure some will be able to hide from the beast, but the majority of those who come to faith during the tribulation will be killed for refusing to take the MOB.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Just a minute

The Beast is Antichrist right? [not Mark laBette ]

But he has been slain in the temple.

When he set down and declared that he was himself God the Lord descended with a shout and slew him by the brightness of his appearing and the breath of His mouth.

No more Antichrist, no more Beast, no more mark of the Beast. No more persecution, no more tribulation.

When Jesus comes to gather us is the same day He slays the Beast. It is the END of Antichrist, not his beginning. He will have had his career of opposing everything god so called. That is he will seek to destroy all religion, and he will have great success. This is the great end-time persecution or The Great Tribulation.

The 7 years folks talk about after the Rap is a simple mopping up operation as told in Ezekiel 38. Those who had recieved the mark of the Beast and had come up with him to Jerusalem will perish. These are seals bowls and trumpets etc.

But Jesus comes to REIGN.

 

[ANDIAMO]

At least you are civil about it - and, that is always nice to see. I would rather have a discussion - and, simply disagree where necessary and appropriate - than to have an argument - so, your approach is appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am talking about 'dispensationalism' as a method of analysis that may lead interpretation astray. (Because, it does.)

The distinction/separation of these things is clear enough in the scriptures without a man-made 'mechanism' (which, in its base definition, is an 'instrument' or 'device' that utilizes 'structure' and 'organization' to create a 'framework' for learning) to be a 'container' for the same. The problem is, the 'shape' of that 'framework' is often 'preformed' externally (without scripture as the guide). And, the next thing you know - you have invented a 'Great Tribulation' [period] that has/is its own 'dispensation' - which does not exist in scripture.

Whether you realize it or not - dispensationalism is a man-made lens...

If scripture does not "speak it directly" - it is man-made. Period.

I have a very good friend who believes in preterism (he calls himself a partial preterist.). You sound a lot like him. Is that your belief?
I have no need for the other dispensations, that so many people argue about, when it comes to my dispensational lens. Mine is simple. Law and Grace. My point is that Law and Grace differentiates Israel from the Church—-which, for me, is everything in eschatology. If we can’t agree on this distinction then we are looking at scripture in two completely different ways, and there’s no point in discussing it further. You have your way, and I have mine. You won’t convince me, and I won’t convince you.

Now, what I can see coming are comments from people like, “who is the church?” Or “who is Israel” in this or that verse. We could go on forever disagreeing, right? Not what I want to do in a forum.

My preterist friend has a very complex way of making scripture line up with his beliefs, whereas my lens of law and grace makes it simple. And I admit that I am simple.

You make assumptions that those who believe in the pre-trib rapture learned it from childhood. That is not true for me and for most of my like-minded friends. I got saved in my late 20’s and my church did not ascribe to that belief. It wasn’t until my late 40’s that I discovered it for myself.

My preterist friend is now in the process of deconstructing his faith. He is now believing a “many paths” approach. I don’t see anything good coming out of taking off my lens, framework or shape or whatever else you want to call it. Call it whatever you want. But for me, it is simply reading the Bible, not assuming an allegorical interpretation for literal scriptures, and knowing who God is speaking to (or about) in those verses.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If you are a believer, yes, some can be mislead by numerous false teachings, but even then, OSAS, how can you give Jesus back the free gift of salvation to those who believe in the One sent by the Father?

Ask Jesus and Paul

10 Then many will fall away, betray one another, and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. Matt 24

Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 1 Tim 4:1

Some day soon, you will be happily surprised when in a flash, or in the twinkling of an eye, you have departed, and are in the presence of Him.

Yes, at the second coming of Jesus, along with the surviving church body directly after the dead in Christ are risen.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

What? Seriously or are you joking that a member actually believes the earth is flat?

There is a small group of them here. At first I thought it was hilarious but they are quite serious.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Mine is simple. Law and Grace. My point is that Law and Grace differentiates Israel from the Church—-which, for me, is everything in eschatology.

That's good. Those are the two main dispensations (even though there are others). But Bible prophecy will make absolutely no sense until we distinguish between Israel and the Church.

 

[Fundaamental]

Well it shouldn't I still love bro Oy. some of my favourite preachers have been Pre-Trib.

Yes I have to and I now have a very close friend here who believes in pre trib.
The same goal between post trib and pre tribe is the same,

However friend I really do feel aggrieved by the amount of verses that tell pre trib that it's wrong
How ever I do wish to discuss it and not come against a person over there different view points 😊

I do feel it sends out the wrong message.

 

[Evmur]

There are a few different views on this subject, and Im a firm believer in the pre tribulation rapture. We are the bride of Christ, and it would seem out of character for God to beat His bride for 7 years prior to the wedding in Heaven.

Ones belief on the timing of the rapture is not a salvation issue, and as I like to jokingly say “those who dont believe in a pre trib rapture, thats OK, I will explain it on the way up.

Tribulation does not come from God it comes from Antichrist, the world. Tribulation is persecution, the Great Tribulation is the great end-times persecution Jesus tells about.

We are all 100% agreed that the church is taken before God's wrath is poured out.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Yes I have to and I now have a very close friend here who believes in pre trib.
The same goal between post trib and pre tribe is the same,

However friend I really do feel aggrieved by the amount of verses that tell pre trib that it's wrong
How ever I do wish to discuss it and not come against a person over there different view points 😊

I do feel it sends out the wrong message.

Just jumping back in now while watching my service live online(second time). What Scriptures are you speaking of against the pre-trib, if I missed them please refer me to the post #, ty.

 

[TabinRivCA]

Who's the Restrainer?

❧

As the Word says, the Restrainer is the one holding back the time of the lawless one, who is already setting the stage for his emergence into public eye.

 

[GaryA]

Ok, please tell me what is your version of the wrath of God......

The 'Wrath of God' is the 7 Vials - no more and no less - but, exactly that. (Seals, Trumpets, and other things not included.)

and are you saying the Body of Christ(all the believers on earth under the anointing) are weaker than the anti-Christ, assuming they are here?

Let me follow along with your line of thinking here, and ask you a couple of questions:

"Why is the world in the shape it is in now with evil rampant and reigning everwhere?"

"Why does the present-day Body of Christ not accomplish now what you are suggesting?

In ~2000 years, the Body of Christ has never been any weaker than it is today.

How can you expect the Body of Christ to be "stronger" than [anything] 'anti-Christ' when it is too weak and does not know how to stand up to evil now?

I see the Church getting higher with the anointing doing things greater than Jesus, as He said we would.

Most of what you speak of here has "dwindled" through the centuries.

What-exactly-kinds-of-things do you see the Church doing?

The 'power' that He gives us is the power to hold onto our faith and spread the Gospel - not to bend steal like Superman. And, if we are not accomplishing it now - what makes you think we will further-down-the-road in the future? (Unless, of course, there is a truly amazing Christian revival in the world.)

I don't see the anti-Christ defeating the power of the Holy Ghost.

The power of the Holy Ghost is "limited" to the exercising of the 'wielding' of the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. The Holy Spirit works through people. People must be willing to let the Spirit work through them. If Christians don't live their faith - the Spirit "loses"...

 

[GaryA]

I have been a member of end times forums for over a decade, and I have learned there will be occasions when agreements/shared views, can not be reached.

Then, why did you react the way you did?

I know from reading your posts we wont agree on most anything, so why continue?

Okay. I can accept that. But, don't let that keep you from having discussions with others...

I do believe that someday soon, and sooner than many believe, we will be clothed in white, and we can compare notes on what we believed in our former life, in our old flesh bodies. Then again, we will have the answers at that time, so maybe at the banquet, we can sit next to each other and have a good laugh.

One thing is for sure - whenever and about whatever God shows us the truth - we shall surely understand it with assurance.

That is not what you have shown to me, but I appreciate the comment. I said a few days ago up thread, its not a salvation issue, and with this post, I will depart this forum and return to my own.

I really am not sure I understand what brought this about - are you sure you didn't misunderstand something I said? I would really appreciate it if you would help me understand what was going through your head when you wrote this. If you can point to something specific that you found offensive, perhaps I can explain myself in a better way...?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

As the Word says, the Restrainer is the one holding back the time of the lawless one, who is already setting the stage for his emergence into public eye.

Yeah, but who is this Restrainer? I'm wondering if you know who this is specifically.

❧

 

[TabinRivCA]

Yeah, but who is this Restrainer? I'm wondering if you know who this is specifically.

❧

Our Bibles don't say specifically and my guess would be Holy Spirit that reveals all things to believers:
Jn 16:13 ' When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future'.

 

[GaryA]

I have a very good friend who believes in preterism (he calls himself a partial preterist.). You sound a lot like him. Is that your belief?
I have no need for the other dispensations, that so many people argue about, when it comes to my dispensational lens. Mine is simple. Law and Grace. My point is that Law and Grace differentiates Israel from the Church—-which, for me, is everything in eschatology. If we can’t agree on this distinction then we are looking at scripture in two completely different ways, and there’s no point in discussing it further. You have your way, and I have mine. You won’t convince me, and I won’t convince you.

Now, what I can see coming are comments from people like, “who is the church?” Or “who is Israel” in this or that verse. We could go on forever disagreeing, right? Not what I want to do in a forum.

My preterist friend has a very complex way of making scripture line up with his beliefs, whereas my lens of law and grace makes it simple. And I admit that I am simple.

You make assumptions that those who believe in the pre-trib rapture learned it from childhood. That is not true for me and for most of my like-minded friends. I got saved in my late 20’s and my church did not ascribe to that belief. It wasn’t until my late 40’s that I discovered it for myself.

My preterist friend is now in the process of deconstructing his faith. He is now believing a “many paths” approach. I don’t see anything good coming out of taking off my lens, framework or shape or whatever else you want to call it. Call it whatever you want. But for me, it is simply reading the Bible, not assuming an allegorical interpretation for literal scriptures, and knowing who God is speaking to (or about) in those verses.

Well - first of all, I am not a preterist - I believe that 'historicist' is the word that would apply best to my eschatological beliefs. I believe that some-but-not-all of the prophecy in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse is past history - and, some of it is yet future. (A similar thing may be said concerning the OT prophetic books.) I believe that all of this prophecy occurs over a great span of time and not a short one. I do not believe that it all happens during a 7-year 'tribulation' period just before the Millennium.

We certainly agree that there is a "separation" between Law and Grace and also between Israel and the Church.

The only assumption I have made is that I believe that most 'pre-trib' folks learned it from childhood. I do believe there are exceptions - and, am pretty sure I allowed for it in what I have written.

You would/will certainly do well if you can study the scriptures without allowing modern-men-think to detract from what is actually written in scripture.

 

[TabinRivCA]

The 'Wrath of God' is the 7 Vials - no more and no less - but, exactly that. (Seals, Trumpets, and other things not included.)


Let me follow along with your line of thinking here, and ask you a couple of questions:

"Why is the world in the shape it is in now with evil rampant and reigning everwhere?"

"Why does the present-day Body of Christ not accomplish now what you are suggesting?

In ~2000 years, the Body of Christ has never been any weaker than it is today.

How can you expect the Body of Christ to be "stronger" than [anything] 'anti-Christ' when it is too weak and does not know how to stand up to evil now?


Most of what you speak of here has "dwindled" through the centuries.

What-exactly-kinds-of-things do you see the Church doing?

The 'power' that He gives us is the power to hold onto our faith and spread the Gospel - not to bend steal like Superman. And, if we are not accomplishing it now - what makes you think we will further-down-the-road in the future? (Unless, of course, there is a truly amazing Christian revival in the world.)


The power of the Holy Ghost is "limited" to the exercising of the 'wielding' of the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. The Holy Spirit works through people. People must be willing to let the Spirit work through them. If Christians don't live their faith - the Spirit "loses"...

In the circles I follow, they ARE performing miracles of healing, ie Charles and Frances Hunter had tremendous healings, IJN.
I don't see the believers I know and watch, laying down as victims to the a/c.
I said as much as I can say on this and since this is not a matter of salvation, I will continue with what I think and will not deride anyone who sees things differently😊🙏

 

[Inquisitor]

Just a minute

The Beast is Antichrist right? [not Mark laBette ]

But he has been slain in the temple.

When he set down and declared that he was himself God the Lord descended with a shout and slew him by the brightness of his appearing and the breath of His mouth.

No more Antichrist, no more Beast, no more mark of the Beast. No more persecution, no more tribulation.

When Jesus comes to gather us is the same day He slays the Beast. It is the END of Antichrist, not his beginning. He will have had his career of opposing everything god so called. That is he will seek to destroy all religion, and he will have great success. This is the great end-time persecution or The Great Tribulation.

The 7 years folks talk about after the Rap is a simple mopping up operation as told in Ezekiel 38. Those who had recieved the mark of the Beast and had come up with him to Jerusalem will perish. These are seals bowls and trumpets etc.

But Jesus comes to REIGN.

If the beast is the antichrist, who then is the second beast with the two horns.

Because the second beast is the one who gets everyone to worship the image of the first beast.

The second beast imposes the mark on humanity.

The first beast also represents kings or even kingdoms.

I am assuming the harlot is riding the first beast?

The first beast is the man of sin, the lawless one, claims to be God, sits in the temple?