HAVE YOU BEEN TO PURGATORY?

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Sep 9, 2018
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#1
We have all heard of the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. I recall my grandmother's funeral where the "father that dresses like a mother" asked his Saviour, Mary, to please have mercy on this faithful Catholic woman (whom God graciously allowed me to lead to the Lord a few weeks prior) and cleanse her with the flames of purgatory. Uh, no, she was seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus - not consigned to flames (hell).

But I do see a 'purgatory' of sorts in the Word of God.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:1-3).

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22).

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins" (Hebrews 10:1-2).

No long drawn out tome needs to be presented here . . . Scriptures say all that is needed to be said.

Timothy tells us that we even have an opportunity to participate in our Christian life in the sense of sanctification . . . after mentioning vessels of honor and dishonor - something which a Christian might become if not walking daily with the Saviour, he writes:

"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work" (II Timothy 2:21).

One useful tool for doing this is:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9). And that because we have an "Advocate with the Father!" Amen!!!

but what of those that do not walk with the Saviour as they should and do not apply the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ upon their lives regularly? Have they lost their salvation? Well, you tell me . . . based on the verse from Peter.

After mentioning some good qualities a believer should strive for, he writes, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins" (II Peter 1:8-9).

SUMMATION:

1) We have been purged from our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ.
2) It is possible to forget that we have been purged and stray from our fellowship of our Saviour and great God, Jesus Christ.
3) Fellowship may be restored as easily as applying I John 1:9 and receiving a clean slate.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
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#3
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).

Speaking to those that believe you can lose your salvation, which, by the way is referred to as a 'gift of God' . . . believing that you are saved today - but could be lost tomorrow - tell me what kind of 'peace with God' you possess?

There IS a difference between a professor and a possessor.
 

MadHermit

Junior Member
May 8, 2018
388
142
43
#7
The word "purgatory" is only used several centuries after the NT era. But Catholics can anchor the doctrine of Purgatory to at least 2 New Testament texts:
(1) In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul discusses the fate of professing Christians whose works are worthless when subjected to close divine scrutiny. Paul says their words will be "burnt up" and they "will suffer loss," but they themselves "will be saved, yet so as by fire." So the question is, where does this purgation "so as by fire" occur. The best answer can be found in the use of this phrase in ancient rabbinic Judaism to describe the temporary fate of Jews with mediocre spirituality. The rabbis said that such people would go to Gehenna, where they would be "saved yet so as by fire." So Paui seems to have a concept of Gehenna that resembles the later Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
(2) In 2 Coritnhians 12: 2, 4 Paul describes his perhaps out-of-body travel to Paradise, which he locates in the 3rd Heaven. He thus raises the question of the nature and identify of the first 2 lower heavens. Paul's location of Paradise accepts the intertestamental Jewish location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven and the 2nd Heaven in their scheme seem to be a fiery purgatory type of realm.
Thus, I reject the rationalization that the first 2 Heavens are the sky and the realm of the stars.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
#9
The word "purgatory" is only used several centuries after the NT era. But Catholics can anchor the doctrine of Purgatory to at least 2 New Testament texts:
(1) In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul discusses the fate of professing Christians whose works are worthless when subjected to close divine scrutiny. Paul says their words will be "burnt up" and they "will suffer loss," but they themselves "will be saved, yet so as by fire." So the question is, where does this purgation "so as by fire" occur. The best answer can be found in the use of this phrase in ancient rabbinic Judaism to describe the temporary fate of Jews with mediocre spirituality. The rabbis said that such people would go to Gehenna, where they would be "saved yet so as by fire." So Paui seems to have a concept of Gehenna that resembles the later Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
(2) In 2 Coritnhians 12: 2, 4 Paul describes his perhaps out-of-body travel to Paradise, which he locates in the 3rd Heaven. He thus raises the question of the nature and identify of the first 2 lower heavens. Paul's location of Paradise accepts the intertestamental Jewish location of Paradise in the 3rd Heaven and the 2nd Heaven in their scheme seem to be a fiery purgatory type of realm.
Thus, I reject the rationalization that the first 2 Heavens are the sky and the realm of the stars.
Why are we then instructed to 'purge ourselves?' . . .
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,939
5,398
113
#11
We have all heard of the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory. I recall my grandmother's funeral where the "father that dresses like a mother" asked his Saviour, Mary, to please have mercy on this faithful Catholic woman (whom God graciously allowed me to lead to the Lord a few weeks prior) and cleanse her with the flames of purgatory. Uh, no, she was seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus - not consigned to flames (hell).

But I do see a 'purgatory' of sorts in the Word of God.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:1-3).

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22).

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins" (Hebrews 10:1-2).

No long drawn out tome needs to be presented here . . . Scriptures say all that is needed to be said.

Timothy tells us that we even have an opportunity to participate in our Christian life in the sense of sanctification . . . after mentioning vessels of honor and dishonor - something which a Christian might become if not walking daily with the Saviour, he writes:

"If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work" (II Timothy 2:21).

One useful tool for doing this is:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (I John 1:9). And that because we have an "Advocate with the Father!" Amen!!!

but what of those that do not walk with the Saviour as they should and do not apply the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ upon their lives regularly? Have they lost their salvation? Well, you tell me . . . based on the verse from Peter.

After mentioning some good qualities a believer should strive for, he writes, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins" (II Peter 1:8-9).

SUMMATION:

1) We have been purged from our sins by the blood of Jesus Christ.
2) It is possible to forget that we have been purged and stray from our fellowship of our Saviour and great God, Jesus Christ.
3) Fellowship may be restored as easily as applying I John 1:9 and receiving a clean slate.
Firstly, we are purged OF our sins, not purged FROM our sins. The distinction is important.

Secondly, you have unfortunately not made clear the connection between ‘purging’ and ‘cleansing’ which may be accomplished easily by comparison with a modern translation.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,939
5,398
113
#12
... Thus, I reject the rationalization that the first 2 Heavens are the sky and the realm of the stars.
It isn’t a ‘rationalization’. I would suggest you carefully read Genesis 1... in several versions.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#14
Yes I did. However, purging oneself of something is different than going somewhere called purgatory to do penance for your sins.
purge

[purj]
SynonymsExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for purge on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object), purged, purg·ing.
  1. to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify.
  2. to rid, clear, or free (usually followed by of or from):to purge a political party of disloyal members.
  3. to clear of imputed guilt or ritual uncleanliness.
NOTE #3.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#16
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16).

This is a 'place' - yet no one has been to this physical place, yet there is nothing to stop us from going there.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
533
113
#17
Yes I did. However, purging oneself of something is different than going somewhere called purgatory to do penance for your sins.
Roman Catholics will never concede that point. Their church will throw them out if they are not robotically in accord with all things RC.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
68,565
6,741
113
#18
purge

[purj]
SynonymsExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for purge on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object), purged, purg·ing.
  1. to rid of whatever is impure or undesirable; cleanse; purify.
  2. to rid, clear, or free (usually followed by of or from):to purge a political party of disloyal members.
  3. to clear of imputed guilt or ritual uncleanliness.
NOTE #3.

I know what purge means. We purge ourselves of sin when we get saved. But we don't go to a non-existent place to do it.

Are you catholic? Because only catholics believe in purgatory.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
68,565
6,741
113
#19
"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Hebrews 4:16).

This is a 'place' - yet no one has been to this physical place, yet there is nothing to stop us from going there.
Really? So God's heavenly throne is a physical place? Not on THIS earth. His grace is eternal, His throne is in heaven, a place where we have yet to visit.