Have you believed the false grace message?

[Bladerunner]

"people get ready"

We used to do this song in church, A song about a ticket to the train bound to Jordan (our eternal destination) It says the ticket has already been purchased (by the blood of Christ) all we have to do is climb aboard.

Once we are aboard, it is like the ark, We are sealed in, Nothing can stop us from getting to our destination. We can not get out. God sealed us, No one can break Gods seal.

However, we have work to do. We have work to serve our fellow brothers and sisters, who will still go through pain and suffering, and they need to help us with ours We have to work to bring others aboard the train.

It is a ride which will reach its destination with us on it, But it is not a ride in which we sit still and do nothing, We have to work.. God wants to show his love through is..


That is what the difference is.. We all teach works, We all teach God has things for us to do. We all teach we should obey, and serve God and others through love.

what separates us is those who KNOW God seals us in, and no one can get out, and those who think God seals us in, but yet we can still get out and not make our destination. One understand the true essence and power of God (including foreknowledge) and one says God can't do what he started to do, which is perfect us forever.

it is not a doctrinal issue, it is a heart issue, it is a faith issue,,

Is your faith in God or not..

Hi my friend......I like this post however, I will have to disagree on one point.

It has been said that once you are saved, you are saved forever. you can only lose your rewards given out in the Bema Seat.

In fact, Jesus tells use through John 10:28..." And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

I agree with you here in that no man shall take salvation away from them.
Having said that, I believe IF,,IF,,IF one turns away by their own volition from Jesus Christ to the "Other Gospel", I think it is very clear that they may just lose their salvation.

Galatians 5:1-4...

1.Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that[COLOR="#[B]006400"]if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."


The allusion to this situation where one can lose their salvation is in the 1st verse of the Chapter. "AGAIN", tells us that at least some of these Galatians had been at one time subject and/or was following the "other Gospel". Along comes Paul and converts them to Christianity and they are saved. Some time later Paul returns and finds that at least some of them have fallen off of the wagon and "AGAIN" have turned to the "Other Gospel". Here Paul tells them in Verse 4 that if they turn their ways from the teaching of Jesus Christ to the teachings of the "Other Gospel", they will lose their salvation..by way of "ye are fallen from Grace" . Even if in verse 2, Paul tells them IF you do this, Christ shall have NOTHING for you.

While I am not 100% on board here yet, I must admit in lieu of any descending passage to the contrary, Losing your salvation under certain circumstances is very possible.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

We are no longer strangers to each other so we all have given answers to
this question.

Dear Lord, bring the peace of your presence in out hearts and the discernment
of those wishing to bring division among your people for no good reason,
In Jesus Name, Amen

Oh, just shoot me now! Stop praying out loud just to jab someone at the very end. If you really don't know you do this often, please ask God to show you. I say it for your own sake and for your own good. Please ask Him. It's a very bad habit of yours.

 

[Sirk]

Still trying to teach birds to fly. How do we just nudge them out of the nest...metaphorically speaking of course. Do we try to catch them if they don't open their wings?

so many questions!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So...your question is:if a person stops being nice and is never nice again, and never does anything kind to or for someone else, but instead is always doing mean and selfish things, will they lose eternal life...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't believe eternal life is in doing nice things but is in HIM and abiding in Him...and you seem to want to get me to say that a nasty, unkind person who does everything out of consideration of self has eternal life..and I can't figure out why you would want someone to say that...

I want to know what you think you are better than that nasty person, and do not have sin issues in your own life.. Why do you want to judge him, and say there is no way he has eternal life, Then look at yourself and your sin and say you do? Are you better than him?

All I asked is if a person was TRULY saved (not if you thought he was saved, but a person is truly saved) then all of a sudden falls into some sin habits, is that person saved still?

There is no saved status apart from abiding.

Oh I see, So WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK OF ATTACHING OURSELVES?

Now your scaring me, You just claimed you have to save yourself by abiding, Say it is not so!!

If we abide we don't sin. When we don't abide, we sin.

so do we lose salvation because we sin? Or because we are not abiding? And what is the difference? (since that is what it appears you are saying, if not, please let me now..

I can be as nice as pie, but if I don't abide in Him, I don't have eternal life.

So I recieve eternal life because i abide in him, Can you please show me that in scripture? Where di dJesus say whoever abides in me has eternal life, whoever does not abide in me shall not see life but the wrath of God abides in him?

And if I abide in Him, I'm not going to be nasty and selfish because that is not what He is like. So I will grow more and more like Him as I abide. I will improve and grow in the virtues.

oh ok, So your not going to be like the sinner? see how that sounds? Can you not see what I am tryign to show you?

Again, What gives you the right to judge?

I think the confusion comes at trying to grasp for a saved status apart from abiding. To own a saved status for yourself instead of just abiding so you don't die. It's so much time and energy trying to possess for self what is only in Him and abiding in Him. You seem to think others make it all about works and yet to me it looks like you are the one who always makes it about works because it is what you always talk about. You want some assurance that you will live eternally that involves long and bitter conversations about how it is yours forever no matter what you do or do not do and it always is a conversation about works and hammering on works and insisting all must agree that there is eternal life no matter what one does or doesn't do, abide or not abide, improve in virtue or not ever improve at all, and it just makes me so tired for you.

lol.. No, the issue is who is doing the abiding? Is it god keeping and sealing us, or is it us keeping ourselves in God.

Again, this post just showed me alot. I understand now why you have been defending certain people. Unless I have totally misunderstood you..

I think you should stop worrying about having everyone agree with you and just abide so you don't die.

I think you need to stop judging me and my motives, and just try to listen to what I am tryign to do, and share..

I could care less if anyone agrees with me, or have you not seen that?

If all of this energy was put into abiding more

Yeah it does take alot of ENERGY and WORK to abide..

Thats why abiding has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNAL LIFE.. it has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FRUIT BEARING though..


so it appears if I read you right, and again it scares me,, You believe we have to earn our salvation by doing the hard work of abiding..

and more instead of a courtroom of cross examination of everyone to make sure they agree you can be nasty as all get out and you will live eternally nevertheless, you would be teaching us so many wonderful things by now!

yeah whatever, this started 6 months ago when Peter started his hateful slander and falsly accusing people who believe we are saved by grace, It started when we started to try to show him, no peter, that is not what we believe, Then he got more nasty, and defensive.

I think you need to Look in the mirror.

You HAVE to be exhausted with this by now...

I am never exhausted sharing Gods word, Are you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

Amen sis

where is the term abide?

 

[valiant]

Hi my friend......I like this post however, I will have to disagree on one point.

It has been said that once you are saved, you are saved forever. you can only lose your rewards given out in the Bema Seat.

In fact, Jesus tells use through John 10:28..." And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

I agree with you here in that no man shall take salvation away from them.
Having said that, I believe IF,,IF,,IF one turns away by their own volition from Jesus Christ to the "Other Gospel", I think it is very clear that they may just lose their salvation.

so when Jesus said they will never ever perish He did not mean it? He is unable to keep them? Do you not realise that thy are under His hand?

Galatians 5:1-4...

1.Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that[COLOR="#[B]006400"]if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

They have fallen from grace DOCTRINALLY. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fall from grace ACTUALLY. For they fall into more grace,

The allusion to this situation where one can lose their salvation is in the 1st verse of the Chapter.

IF GOD saves me I cannot lose it. His arms are underneath me.

"AGAIN", tells us that at least some of these Galatians had been at one time subject and/or was following the "other Gospel".

No, it says they remained unbelievers.

Along comes Paul and converts them to Christianity and they are saved.

your imagination

Some time later Paul returns and finds that at least some of them have fallen off of the wagon and "AGAIN" have turned to the "Other Gospel".

No it says they have remained in the other gospel.. He is reminding them again,

Here Paul tells them in Verse 4 that if they turn their ways from the teaching of Jesus Christ to the teachings of the "Other Gospel", they will lose their salvation..by way of "ye are fallen from Grace"

It says nothing about them losing their salvation, It is not theirs to lose. It is HIS. They have simply slipped doctrinally.

. Even if in verse 2, Paul tells them IF you do this, Christ shall have NOTHING for you.

Yes if they are still trusting in circumcision, Christ is nothing to them. They have just thought He was.

While I am not 100% on board here yet, I must admit in lieu of any descending passage to the contrary, Losing your salvation under certain circumstances is very possible.

Losing God's salvation is impossible. He is saving, and He will do it.

 

[LanceA]

Just as the article says we are not forced

Why are you so worried about what the article says? I could care less about an article. What does the bible say?

 

[PennEd]

Oh, just shoot me now! Stop praying out loud just to jab someone at the very end. If you really don't know you do this often, please ask God to show you. I say it for your own sake and for your own good. Please ask Him. It's a very bad habit of yours.

Exactly! Here we have a decent prayer in the beginning, only to find out that the true intent of the prayer was to insult and perform the very task that he's praying to God about!

I rarely strive with this individual. I can't quite make out what his end game is. I only pray he doesn't believe his own press and instead trusts in the Gospel.

 

[PeterJens]

Oh, just shoot me now! Stop praying out loud just to jab someone at the very end. If you really don't know you do this often, please ask God to show you. I say it for your own sake and for your own good. Please ask Him. It's a very bad habit of yours.

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’"

Amen

 

[valiant]

So...your question is:if a person stops being nice and is never nice again, and never does anything kind to or for someone else, but instead is always doing mean and selfish things, will they lose eternal life...? I'm not sure what you're asking. I don't believe eternal life is in doing nice things but is in HIM and abiding in Him...and you seem to want to get me to say that a nasty, unkind person who does everything out of consideration of self has eternal life..and I can't figure out why you would want someone to say that...

There is no saved status apart from abiding. If we abide we don't sin. When we don't abide, we sin.
I can be as nice as pie, but if I don't abide in Him, I don't have eternal life. And if I abide in Him, I'm not going to be nasty and selfish because that is not what He is like. So I will grow more and more like Him as I abide. I will improve and grow in the virtues.

They abide BECAUSE He has saved them. He has GIVEN them ETERNAL LIFE. If I can lose it I have only borrowed eternal life, not been GIVEN it by GOD.

I think the confusion comes at trying to grasp for a saved status apart from abiding.

Your confusion lies in thinking that you can be saved BY GOD and then slip through His hands.

To own a saved status for yourself instead of just abiding so you don't die.

It is because you own the first that you do the second,

 

[PeterJens]

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:19-21

Where is the sharing leading us, into treasures in heaven, in our fellowship, in our
reading or just to self indulgence and greed.

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing.

So the dreaded self analysis crops up which is not scriptural.
I love my kids, but it does not mean this love is invalidated if I also love my wife.
They would feel I had betrayed them if I did not spend time with her loving
her as well.

So a mindset, or way of looking at life can complete change intended meaning
and make evil that which is innocent and good, part of the enjoyment of life
and turn it into a question of good and evil.

But there you have it.
Now to get the picture ever see a child explore. Everything goes in the mouth
and it is just experiences and understanding. As time progresses the difference
between that is good but damages, and that is great and builds up becomes
apparent. Unless the Lord says it does damage, in Christ it is probably a blessing.

 

[Magenta]

Amen sis

where is the term abide?

Jesus speaks about abiding in Him throughout John chapter fifteen

(I just read it last night )

 

[Sirk]

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:19-21

Where is the sharing leading us, into treasures in heaven, in our fellowship, in our
reading or just to self indulgence and greed.

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing.

So the dreaded self analysis crops up which is not scriptural.
I love my kids, but it does not mean this love is invalidated if I also love my wife.
They would feel I had betrayed them if I did not spend time with her loving
her as well.

So a mindset, or way of looking at life can complete change intended meaning
and make evil that which is innocent and good, part of the enjoyment of life
and turn it into a question of good and evil.

But there you have it.
Now to get the picture ever see a child explore. Everything goes in the mouth
and it is just experiences and understanding. As time progresses the difference
between that is good but damages, and that is great and builds up becomes
apparent. Unless the Lord says it does damage, in Christ it is probably a blessing.

Where your heart is....there your treasure will be also. Is peter not telling us about his struggle with material possessions?

 

[valiant]

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matt 6:19-21

Where is the sharing leading us, into treasures in heaven, in our fellowship, in our
reading or just to self indulgence and greed.

Some seem to feel security is found in doctrines and not in Christ and His anointing.

So the dreaded self analysis crops up which is not scriptural.
I love my kids, but it does not mean this love is invalidated if I also love my wife.
They would feel I had betrayed them if I did not spend time with her loving
her as well.

So a mindset, or way of looking at life can complete change intended meaning
and make evil that which is innocent and good, part of the enjoyment of life
and turn it into a question of good and evil.

But there you have it.
Now to get the picture ever see a child explore. Everything goes in the mouth
and it is just experiences and understanding. As time progresses the difference
between that is good but damages, and that is great and builds up becomes
apparent. Unless the Lord says it does damage, in Christ it is probably a blessing.

as usual, part truisms, part unintelligible.

 

[PeterJens]

To be one with God.

It is like an impossible dream, but Jesus did not think so.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
John 17:20-21

But if we are lost sinners unable to walk as Jesus walked this language does not
make sense, unless He was saying, becoming one with me, a Holy Temple of the
Holy Spirit you will know my will and we will dwell in unity with you.

Or is this just dream speak to some?
It is something for most of my life I have wondered at.

Or "by your love they will know that you are my disciples"

Now this suggests a level of closeness and understanding not commenly
experienced. But if in our spiritual lives we are continually plagued by sinful
behaviour, maybe these are just ideas for the super spiritual and not us sinners.

 

[Sirk]

Hey Pete. A humble man of God examines himself and knows that there's a pit of ugliness to be rooted out in his own life.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey Pete. A humble man of God examines himself and knows that there's a pit of ugliness to be rooted out in his own life.

Amen. I agree 100% in this. When choruses came in and old hymns went out, I felt
self examination was lost and the sense of putting life and our behaviour into perspective.
Every thought I had, was somehow tainted or turned in some way and I did not
know how. For whatever reason, which I cannot fully comprehend, I do not think
or react like this.

And unfortunately we easily can do ugly things in an ugly way.

One issue probably at the moment in my life is different emotional stresses with
all aspects of my life. It throws you on the Lord, and makes you walk in trust.
So some things I would in the past be able to pin down, now I will just do, and
not know fully how it comes across. cc is one particular area, because putting
it simply it is too difficult to even begin to work through. I just walk with the
Lord and pray for guidance and inspiration. And the Lord answers so I praise
Him for this.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey Pete. A humble man of God examines himself and knows that there's a pit of ugliness to be rooted out in his own life.

A humble man. Moses was a humble man, so was King David, and Solomon at some
points. And when you humbly say something, it is funny how people accuse one of
being arrogant or whatever. It does get very confusing, if you listen too closely
to the others and not the Lord.

So even if one person listens or a bigger audience, the words should be the same
and the feeling. But after seeing people lead churches it is hard to stay normal,
and be inspected by so many. It is enough to make one go nuts, but thankfully
I have never aspired to such a role.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

so are they saved or not? Do they lose salvation if they do not give up every area of their life?

And PS. God does call on us to confront a brother or sister we see in sin, So yes, We should do something..

Okay, so we were talking about a mans heart and you were asking what if someone is not yet able or ready to give up something in their life yet. You were asking, what happens THEN as far as their salvation? If God sees they aren't ready to bear more truth yet, what good would your confronting them do...? First of all, you can't see the inside, and second of all, even if you could, if they aren't ready to bear it, why WOULD you confront them?

Then, in your second sentence, you appear to be talking about something outward? Like living with someone without being married, maybe?

So you seem to be wanting to have a discussion of how no sin will lose us our eternal life (repentance or not, ceasing it or not, abiding or not) and you often get angry at people you think feel that it's not quite as simple as you try to make it and you say they have no right to judge if another has eternal life or not.

On the other hand, you want to confront about outward sin you see in the lives of others.

So you are fighting your own self in a sense to me anyway...
But I guess if you just have concern that they might not get all the rewards they can in heaven...you could confront them that way, by saying, look, you are eternally secure, so don't take this the wrong way as if I'm saying you are in any kind of danger, because you're not, but if you keep living out of wedlock, you're going to lose some really good rewards. You still get to be with Jesus but man, don't you want to stop doing this so you can get a lot of rewards??

To me, as I've shared with you what I believe, my concern would be that maybe he hadn't received the Spirit yet and that if he had, he wasn't abiding and might die because I seemed to be seeing a not abiding at the very least. So I would have some worry for sure, but my worry would be for more than him just losing some vague reward that I don't really know what it is for sure but...

 

[Sirk]

Amen. I agree 100% in this. When choruses came in and old hymns went out, I felt
self examination was lost and the sense of putting life and our behaviour into perspective.
Every thought I had, was somehow tainted or turned in some way and I did not
know how. For whatever reason, which I cannot fully comprehend, I do not think
or react like this.

And unfortunately we easily can do ugly things in an ugly way.

One issue probably at the moment in my life is different emotional stresses with
all aspects of my life. It throws you on the Lord, and makes you walk in trust.
So some things I would in the past be able to pin down, now I will just do, and
not know fully how it comes across. cc is one particular area, because putting
it simply it is too difficult to even begin to work through. I just walk with the
Lord and pray for guidance and inspiration. And the Lord answers so I praise
Him for this.

Im gonna start calling you Beaver Cleaver. Lol. Maybe youre as innocent as you claim to be....but I'll tell you this. I know people who have a lifetime of bad habits to untangle....including myself....and I don't always respond or react to outward stimuli in a Godly manner. And I give myself grace to be imperfect....,but even then it's a struggle to forgive myself when I screw up.

You see how easy that is Pete? Aside from the beaver cleaver comment, I talked about my walk and not yours. I get the message from you that your "self examination" extends beyond yourself....as if everyone else's experience should be like yours. That's some stinkin thinkin you got right there and it doesnt lend itself to other people trusting you very much.....if at all. I know that I for one am very skeptical of your testimony because of the muddy waters you swim in. The praying publicly thing is kinda weird to be honest. There are other things but I think you got some work to do on your own character as much as anyone around here.