Have you believed the false grace message?

[eternally-gratefull]

You already know that he does not call abiding a work of the law, or works in the same way you view works. He views abiding as the only way for a branch to remain alive. So I don't understand why you keep asking him the same question when he does not view abiding as filthy rags. I don't get it...

Why do you always want to answer him?

What does the works of the law have to do with anything, I never asked about them, I asked 2 plain simple questions.

And i never asked about abiding, I asked about a person who stops doing works..

When I say works, I mean any work, A work is something you do, a work of righteousness would be a good deed something that God would do (serving others) ..A work of evil would be a bad work, something you do for self (carnal)

Why is it so hard for him to answer?

and why do I keep asking?

1. He keeps saying we slander him
2. People like you keep saying we misrepresent him
3. People say we believe the same, just word it different.

My goal is to get rid of the confusion and set things straight, It will not happen UNTIL HE ANSWERS and explains WHY..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am going to get in trouble!

They are both saying that works saves. One just says that if you don't have works you were really not saved.

So both statement's ultimately rely on works.

why does it have to say that? If you say those saved have works,, it just means that, James said it himself..

I do not know about anyone else. But i do not go around saying so and so must not be saved because he does not seem to have any works,, Who am I to judge?

It seems to be the workers who like to judge..

 

[PeterJens]

do we do this 24/7. Are their areas of our life we are not "abiding" while other areas we are?

This is a legalists way of looking at life.
Here is a legalists view of parenting.
1. Always give your child 24 hrs attention.
2. Always give your child what they need.
3. Always dedicate your efforts to their entertainment.

Now a life view of parenting is, let the relationship grow between you and your child,
and this stranger will take you heart away, and you will know their joy and sadness
to a sensitivity you never thought possible, and just putting food in their mouth for the
first time will be like landing on the moon. Now that is what happens, and no book or
rules can teach it, it happens, though for some it does go wrong.

Walking with Christ is not that different or profound. We are the child and He is our
Father. Do you need a rule book to breath? Speak to the Lord and your heart will grow.

 

[Magenta]

It is interesting, it is plainly said doctrine does not matter, only relationship, and yet that is what is always said someone else has wrong (doctrine) and that because the other has that wrong, they are not saved. There is so much contradiction in what goes on here I sincerely doubt you will ever work it out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am going to get in trouble!

They are both saying that works saves. One just says that if you don't have works you were really not saved.

So both statement's ultimately rely on works.

I would tend to agree with this, Thats why in the world. there are non righteous, no not one, because even thier moral good deeds are carnal deeds.

Their faith is in self. Not god, even if they deny it.

why does it have to say that? If you say those saved have works,, it just means that, James said it himself..

I do not know about anyone else. But i do not go around saying so and so must not be saved because he does not seem to have any works,, Who am I to judge?

It seems to be the workers who like to judge..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

what about areas of your life your not ready to give up yet?

What happens then?

I have many things to tell you but you are not able to bear them yet.
I could not feed you meat but had to feed you milk because you are still yet carnal.

I cannot make that judgement. I just can't. It is the judgement of the father when the child is ready to be put down and walk and it is the to the judgement of the mother when the milk will be withheld. If human parents do pretty well in determining this, how much more capable is God to judge when we are able to bear more? And if there is a problem with a child refusing to be set down to walk or having milk removed, I can't stick my nose in their business and tell them how to correct the problem because it is their child, not mine. I have no right to judge how they do it or if they are being too harsh when the child cries at the removal of milk or at having to walk. So I can't answer "what happens then?" I can only say that the parents will do what they think is best. God decides "what happens then" and all I can say is He is fair and will always do what is right and fair and just.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A believer is a believer, with or without works.
A believer is no longer a believer if they loose their faith.
A believer will always have changes and fruit in their life, because it is impossible to know
and love God without following Him. It is like saying can a boat float, or a bicycle ride down
a road, or a violin play a note. We are created to be in communion with God, to be one with
Him, to be Christ on earth.

So in your view. You do not teach one can lose salvation if they stop working, But if they lose faith, which causes them to stop working, is that it?

ps. No a believer can not be a believer (true) if they have never done 1 work.. As james said, if we claim to have faith but have no works.. our faith can not save us, because it is dead.

EG - I know in your heart you will find another way to say nothing and spin it.
So what is the point of your efforts to convert me to your ways, as if I do not already
know them. I know my sharing from my heart means nothing to you, and you do not
know why. That is enough for me, my friend. God bless you, May Jesus heal you of
your burdens and bring light into your life, Amen.

This last comment is rude, It is evil, and it is the root of all of why no one can have any conversation with you. You think everyone is out to attack you, Not that people care honestly wanting to know what you believe or care for your soul

I do not know what your main problem is, But you need to repent Peter. All you had to do was answer. this is nonsense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have many things to tell you but you are not able to bear them yet.
I could not feed you meat but had to feed you milk because you are still yet carnal.

I cannot make that judgement. I just can't. It is the judgement of the father when the child is ready to be put down and walk and it is the to the judgement of the mother when the milk will be withheld. If human parents do pretty well in determining this, how much more capable is God to judge when we are able to bear more? And if there is a problem with a child refusing to be set down to walk or having milk removed, I can't stick my nose in their business and tell them how to correct the problem because it is their child, not mine. I have no right to judge how they do it or if they are being too harsh when the child cries at the removal of milk or at having to walk. So I can't answer "what happens then?" I can only say that the parents will do what they think is best. God decides "what happens then" and all I can say is He is fair and will always do what is right and fair and just.

so are they saved or not? Do they lose salvation if they do not give up every area of their life?

And PS. God does call on us to confront a brother or sister we see in sin, So yes, We should do something..

 

[valiant]

God's message is clear. Salvation is OF THE LORD. He it is who saves, and when He does so He saves completely. He foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies (Romans 8.39 ff). Justification (chs 3-5) and the new birth (chs 6-8) reflect His guarantee of this. Who will lay anything to the charge of God's elect? . It is GOD Who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Who died ---and ever lives to make intercession for us.

 

[gb9]

A believer is a believer, with or without works.
A believer is no longer a believer if they loose their faith.
A believer will always have changes and fruit in their life, because it is impossible to know
and love God without following Him. It is like saying can a boat float, or a bicycle ride down
a road, or a violin play a note. We are created to be in communion with God, to be one with
Him, to be Christ on earth.

EG - I know in your heart you will find another way to say nothing and spin it.
So what is the point of your efforts to convert me to your ways, as if I do not already
know them. I know my sharing from my heart means nothing to you, and you do not
know why. That is enough for me, my friend. God bless you, May Jesus heal you of
your burdens and bring light into your life, Amen.

my apologizes peter, you gave an answer. you could have left off the I -know-your-heart non-sense, but an answer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a legalists way of looking at life.
Here is a legalists view of parenting.
1. Always give your child 24 hrs attention.
2. Always give your child what they need.
3. Always dedicate your efforts to their entertainment.

Now a life view of parenting is, let the relationship grow between you and your child,
and this stranger will take you heart away, and you will know their joy and sadness
to a sensitivity you never thought possible, and just putting food in their mouth for the
first time will be like landing on the moon. Now that is what happens, and no book or
rules can teach it, it happens, though for some it does go wrong.

Walking with Christ is not that different or profound. We are the child and He is our
Father. Do you need a rule book to breath? Speak to the Lord and your heart will grow.

so what happens if we do not obey in certain areas of our life? Does that mean we are not saved?

 

[Magenta]

God's message is clear. Salvation is OF THE LORD. He it is who saves, and when He does so He saves completely. He foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies (Romans 8.39 ff). Justification (chs 3-5) and the new birth (chs 6-8) reflect His guarantee of this. Who will lay anything to the charge of God's elect? . It is GOD Who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ Who died ---and ever lives to make intercession for us.

Amen. People are supposed to be able to tell we are abiding in Him by how well we love our brothers and sisters in Christ. When I look at some of the dialogue here, all I see is self love.

 

[garee]

Yes, the heart is everything.

Which heart that of natural unconverted man that does not have the Spirit of Christ and therefore is not moved by the new spirit that will never die. That heart?

Their heart remains deceitful as in who could know it? God is much greater than the heart of man .He knows all things I even the secret sins.

Do you think the new spirit washed by the water of the word that cleanses us form all sin that he freely gives us.... can die ? And Christ must be crucified over and over? It would appear he does all the work of salvation and is not served by human hands as if he needed something.

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a "new spirit" will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and “cause” you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36:25

What blind sides me is one simple reality. Two people can walk into the room withthe same beliefs, one speaking from the heart and the other the head.To speak from the head is hard work, to speak from the heart is who they are.

It is not possible to see into the heart of another man and it’s not our faith coming from our thoughts and will that we are to defend. We defend the mutual faith of Christ as it works in us to defend us.

But first off they appear to be the same, and it is not for us to discover either.

Yes it is not of us to judge another person’s servant. Christ is able to create a new heart and new spirit as the treasure of His authority we have in these earthen bodies of death . We must never assume they could be of us as to that which does defen us ,like the man in Mathew 7 whom Christ called a worker of iniquity.

 

[wsblind]

I would tend to agree with this, Thats why in the world. there are non righteous, no not one, because even thier moral good deeds are carnal deeds.

Their faith is in self. Not god, even if they deny it.

why does it have to say that? If you say those saved have works,, it just means that, James said it himself..

I do not know about anyone else. But i do not go around saying so and so must not be saved because he does not seem to have any works,, Who am I to judge?

It seems to be the workers who like to judge..

For me, I count everybody on this forum as saved, except for those who admit they are not.

Some really make ya question it though?! But questioning it is not the same as judging them and condemning them.

It's the sense of humor of God. Put a legalistic, self righteous believer in the midst of a plowing along believer and test to see if they are patient and can love unconditionally. So He is using both kinds of believers at the same time.

 

[PeterJens]

I have a picture.

A child is playing in a playground. A parent runs over and the child looks up, laughs,
and runs to greet them. Now does the interplay have to be analysed, catagorised, put in
boxes, questions asked which came first, who loves who, and by how much, are the secure
enough or is it going to be on the rocks in a few years etc.

So I simply want to celebrate the Lord and all He brings. And the goal is to walk in His ways,
to have His heart, to be one with Him.

Now this is the dividing line. Either you want this or you do not. Christ is saying He can deliver
this in your life. I am testifying to this being true. It appears to me for different reasons people
are in rebellion against this and believe it is a lie of the enemy.

It is though the teaching of scripture and the church, though many vary about how this is achieved
or what actually walking as Christ walked really means.

If as it appears some do not have much emotional intelligence, and have rejected a large part of the
belief system around our relationship with the Lord, then there is not much to say.

A free ticket ride to paradise with benefits, and a partial social involvement but not too much appears
to be the alternative on offer. I am happy if I have miss-understood, I am open to be corrected.

 

[Depleted]

I would like you to find where I said I was a co savior as in I can initiate salvation myself. Its funny because this website is called Christian chat but should say something else, it should say Calvinism chat. Yall seem to forget Christians have different denominations but I suppose yall are superior and very prideful to the point yall insult, mock, and act like yall have all the answers.

Yall are like twice as old as me and in need of some maturing.

I have the same bible, I know how to pray and I also know how to treat others with respect.

As my generation would say haters going to hate.

I could explain it to you too but everyone is quick to speak, quick to anger, and do not listen.

So fast to judge and no time to think.

We would rather focus on Jesus saving grace but the only reason we speak against OSAS is because Matthew, and Hebrews speaks against it. We cant just use some scripture and deny others. What yall need to ask yourselves is does God force you to do anything? Are you a vessel and Holy Spirit has complete control? What happens when you sin daily? Is that the holy spirit too? Or do you shrug it off because your already saved and all the lessons in the bible on teaching us to be more like Christ is only for the sinners?

Why does scripture tell us to keep in step with the Spirit and that we must follow the Spirit? Galatians 5:16 and Galatians 5:25.

Doesn't the spirit seal us into our eternal home? So why must we actively keep in step with the Spirit if it is all-controlling.

Galatians 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

Uh oh how can someone be caught in sin and then need restoration? If their already saved what harm will it do?

Reality check time:
-- Most folks on this site are distinctively NOT Calvinists. (Read that little ditty of a pinned post from the mods at the top of this forum to see how anti-Calvinist some are.) That you think this is all about "yall" and "me," when "yall" means Calvinist to you is hilarious since I know most of the folks trying to get you to listen are also decidely NOT Calvinist too.

-- I don't know if PennEd is or isn't Calvinist. That's not one of those things I quickly notice about any given person, and since I don't think Calvinism saves, it really doesn't matter to me if someone is or isn't. (And, to be clear, I am decidedly very Calvinistic.) What Ed is, however, is one of the most respectful people on this site. He's even being respectful to you, and yet here you are lying about how disrespectful he is and how respectful you are, proving you are completely clueless as to the very idea of respect, once more even pretending you're being respectful.

So to be clear, noper. On a 1-10 scale with 10 meaning "absolutely," I'd give you a 2 on your maturity level. I have seen less mature people, but not many. And frankly, I've always found those who harp on maturity to be the least mature. Yup, many are twice your age alright. Don't know how much that matters, since I have yet to see you actually act your age.

If I didn't see your age, I would guess much younger. (And, I didn't notice your age until you started giving all this "I'm so mature" junk on post after post.)

When I was in college there was an old joke going around.

"At 16, everyone can't believe their parents have survived this long being that stupid. Four years later, they can't believe how quickly their parents wised up."

You should be at the tail end of that revelation. You're still at the beginning of it. Many things, but not a sign of maturity that you haven't gotten there yet. Do you smoke a lot of weed? Because your emotional assessment seems stuck at a much younger age than you are. Chronic toking stunts emotional maturity.

I'm sure you'll get "you are the one who is immature" out of all I've just written, but get one more thing out of this, if you use weed constantly, you're going to be stuck on entry-level jobs for decades forever wondering what is wrong with everyone else for not realizing how wise you are.

And, if that's not it. I give. I have no idea what your problem is, but realize many are going to give up on you for your attitude. One thing for sure, it is not a Christian attitude at all, even if you add "Jesus words" to prove your points until the cows come home.

I'm done. As I've said often enough, why talk to someone who doesn't listen?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For me, I count everybody on this forum as saved, except for those who admit they are not.

Some really make ya question it though?! But questioning it is not the same as judging them and condemning them.

It's the sense of humor of God. Put a legalistic, self righteous believer in the midst of a plowing along believer and test to see if they are patient and can love unconditionally. So He is using both kinds of believers at the same time.

I agree, I have met true believers stuck in legalistic mindset.. I think satan gets to us, it is his greatest weapon to keep us down.. Thats why we have to have assurance in Christ or we are setting ourselves up for defeat.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"people get ready"

We used to do this song in church, A song about a ticket to the train bound to Jordan (our eternal destination) It says the ticket has already been purchased (by the blood of Christ) all we have to do is climb aboard.

Once we are aboard, it is like the ark, We are sealed in, Nothing can stop us from getting to our destination. We can not get out. God sealed us, No one can break Gods seal.

However, we have work to do. We have work to serve our fellow brothers and sisters, who will still go through pain and suffering, and they need to help us with ours We have to work to bring others aboard the train.

It is a ride which will reach its destination with us on it, But it is not a ride in which we sit still and do nothing, We have to work.. God wants to show his love through is..


That is what the difference is.. We all teach works, We all teach God has things for us to do. We all teach we should obey, and serve God and others through love.

what separates us is those who KNOW God seals us in, and no one can get out, and those who think God seals us in, but yet we can still get out and not make our destination. One understand the true essence and power of God (including foreknowledge) and one says God can't do what he started to do, which is perfect us forever.

it is not a doctrinal issue, it is a heart issue, it is a faith issue,,

Is your faith in God or not..

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

So in your view. You do not teach one can lose salvation if they stop working, But if they lose faith, which causes them to stop working, is that it?

I am perceiving that by salvation, you mean eternal life?
So then if that is correct, then I would say a branch that does not abide will die because the life is not in the branch unless it remains in the vine. If it remains attached to the vine, it will not die. The branch does not receive or keep its' life if it does not remain on the vine. The branch cannot say, I have eternal life apart from remaining attached to the vine. Well...the branch could SAY that, but of course it would be false.

So no, I would not say that "one can lose eternal life if they stop working" because they do not live by working but by abiding.

 

[valiant]

This is a legalists way of looking at life.
Here is a legalists view of parenting.
1. Always give your child 24 hrs attention.
2. Always give your child what they need.
3. Always dedicate your efforts to their entertainment.

Actually this is the opposite of legalism. Alter entertainment to growth and it is describing GOD's way of parenting,

What you then add is your usual attempt to be profound which is contradictory and nonsense,