I didn't say that about Angela. I said that she acknowledged that physical healing was being spoken of in Isaiah 53 (specifically verse 4). I didn't say she "partway agreed with physical healing in the atonement." She reads Isaiah 53:4 as prophecy fulfilled in Matthew 8:17. I am happy that she, unlike others, at the very least recognizes that physical healing is spoken of in Isaiah 53 and it doesn't just speak of spiritual matters.
Healing in the Atonement?
- Thread starter stonesoffire
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Ok sir...I have a question for you, but I almost feel unworthy to address someone with so much superior faith than I have, but here it goes anyhow....
Just how many people have you yourself and the elders of your church laid hands on and healed? If it has not been 100% of the people that came before you then why not?
Just how many people have you yourself and the elders of your church laid hands on and healed? If it has not been 100% of the people that came before you then why not?
Well, lets be rather blunt here. Faith without works is dead. I am not saying God won't heal you, my father has told me the story of a promiscuous woman who would get STDs, come back to church every Sunday and be healed, and do it again and again. Commit sin, get sick, go to church, and get healed, then commit sin, get sick, go to church, and get healed.
God is merciful.
However, lets think about these things. Someone is praying for God to cure their obesity but are piling down cheeseburgers and milkshakes topped with candied cherries for breakfast. Is the conclusion it is their fault they are obese? Uhm... yeah! Even when it comes down to certain diseases we can control the symptoms through diet and even reverse their effects on the body. So, we may seek healing and pray for it but are we taking any personal action in addressing what plagues us?
Listen, I have psoriasis. I desire God to heal me of this. I in the past have believed that He would and do you want to know what He spoke to me? "Believe." As insulting a response as that could be to any of us, its the blunt reality. Do we truly believe? Some say they pray God heals them "but its probably not going to happen until I get my resurrected body." Does that sound like faith to you!? Its doubt, disbelief, and sadly not faith. Its hopelessness hidden as a form of hope that is afar off.
God healed me of an autoimmune disease. Doctors deemed it incurable. I cried out to God as I was bed ridden, when my body would fold in pain. It is now gone, praise God. He was merciful. He was faithful. I asked that He would heal me and He sent a person to pray for me and after that, I was healed.
Is it the fault of the sick person? If we are being absolutely honest and not expressing ourselves with some fake form of sensitivity and humility, yes! God gave us these temples to take care of, and when its starts malfunctioning more often than not it started with your eating utensils. This isn't true for everyone, of course. And we shouldn't try to find blame but rather seek healing. Such healing is found through different means that God has provided.
For example, my psoriasis started reversing as I ate a lectin-free diet. Apparently doctors have found that many autoimmune diseases start from the gut and so we need to heal our stomach. Our microbiome, I believe they call it. We need to eat properly and take away the offending foods that are messing with our systems.
Anyhow, and back to the point, personal responsibility shouldn't be disregarded. Faith without works is dead. What good was Peter's faith had he not stepped out on the water? Where do we proclaim faith, but do not move? So no, we should not silence ourselves due to political correctness and contradict God's word. If we are sick, let us then have faith towards God. If we remain sick, do not lose hope because He is the source for our healing. How can we be angry with God when He is the one that delivers us? We must seek Him, believe, and then receive unto the praise and glory of God.
God is merciful.
However, lets think about these things. Someone is praying for God to cure their obesity but are piling down cheeseburgers and milkshakes topped with candied cherries for breakfast. Is the conclusion it is their fault they are obese? Uhm... yeah! Even when it comes down to certain diseases we can control the symptoms through diet and even reverse their effects on the body. So, we may seek healing and pray for it but are we taking any personal action in addressing what plagues us?
Listen, I have psoriasis. I desire God to heal me of this. I in the past have believed that He would and do you want to know what He spoke to me? "Believe." As insulting a response as that could be to any of us, its the blunt reality. Do we truly believe? Some say they pray God heals them "but its probably not going to happen until I get my resurrected body." Does that sound like faith to you!? Its doubt, disbelief, and sadly not faith. Its hopelessness hidden as a form of hope that is afar off.
God healed me of an autoimmune disease. Doctors deemed it incurable. I cried out to God as I was bed ridden, when my body would fold in pain. It is now gone, praise God. He was merciful. He was faithful. I asked that He would heal me and He sent a person to pray for me and after that, I was healed.
Is it the fault of the sick person? If we are being absolutely honest and not expressing ourselves with some fake form of sensitivity and humility, yes! God gave us these temples to take care of, and when its starts malfunctioning more often than not it started with your eating utensils. This isn't true for everyone, of course. And we shouldn't try to find blame but rather seek healing. Such healing is found through different means that God has provided.
For example, my psoriasis started reversing as I ate a lectin-free diet. Apparently doctors have found that many autoimmune diseases start from the gut and so we need to heal our stomach. Our microbiome, I believe they call it. We need to eat properly and take away the offending foods that are messing with our systems.
Anyhow, and back to the point, personal responsibility shouldn't be disregarded. Faith without works is dead. What good was Peter's faith had he not stepped out on the water? Where do we proclaim faith, but do not move? So no, we should not silence ourselves due to political correctness and contradict God's word. If we are sick, let us then have faith towards God. If we remain sick, do not lose hope because He is the source for our healing. How can we be angry with God when He is the one that delivers us? We must seek Him, believe, and then receive unto the praise and glory of God.
Who His own self bare our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Peter 2:24
Jesus took stripes for your healing...It's ours. It's one of many things Jesus brought for us through His sacrifice. "Ye were healed" past tense. I've seen many Christians like myself who will not let the Bible get in the way of our own theology or our own opinions based on LO000NG hard lessons in the flesh.
I've since discovered the need to have some NEW looong amazing lessons in the spirit and to put away my old manner of living (and thinking) I believe that is what we Christians need to shoot for every single day of our lives now because we have been made NEW creations IN Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For all [these] things are [taking place] for your sake, so that the more grace (divine favor and spiritual blessing) extends to more and more people and multiplies through the many, the more thanksgiving may increase [and redound] to the glory of God.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.Jesus took stripes for your healing...It's ours. It's one of many things Jesus brought for us through His sacrifice. "Ye were healed" past tense. I've seen many Christians like myself who will not let the Bible get in the way of our own theology or our own opinions based on LO000NG hard lessons in the flesh.
I've since discovered the need to have some NEW looong amazing lessons in the spirit and to put away my old manner of living (and thinking) I believe that is what we Christians need to shoot for every single day of our lives now because we have been made NEW creations IN Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For all [these] things are [taking place] for your sake, so that the more grace (divine favor and spiritual blessing) extends to more and more people and multiplies through the many, the more thanksgiving may increase [and redound] to the glory of God.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]For our light, momentary affliction (this slight distress of the passing hour) is ever more and more abundantly preparing and producing and achieving for us an everlasting weight of glory [beyond all measure, excessively surpassing all comparisons and all calculations, a vast and transcendent glory and blessedness never to cease!],
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting. 2 Cor.4:15-18[SUP]1
[/SUP]
Isaiah 53 ... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
When the even was come, they brought unto Him many that were possessed with devils; and He cast out the spirits with His word, and healed all that were sick: 17. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet, saying., Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.8:16-17
I personally believe along with other believers this is saying and it's clear to me that Jesus suffered for our healing and it belongs to me.
I also believe this is the children's bread; portion. It's the gift we were given and each day we are called to walk out who we are in Christ maintaining the ground Jesus bought for us. I agree that I do not have to be sick. And not only sick physically but also sick mentally or confused in any way when I practice (each day )how to walk in the spirit...being built up in the inner man. It's then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh along with it's accompanying problems. This I do believe. Taking verses from all through the Bible and seeing how God honors what Jesus has done at all times... and He honors His word at all times. My part is to believe that by Jesus stripes... the ground has been bought and paid for.. now I hold the ground by faith believing. 2 Tim.1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That is why I would remind you to stir up (rekindle the embers of, fan the flame of, and keep burning) the [gracious] gift of God, [the inner fire] that is in you by means of the laying on of my hands [[SUP][a][/SUP]with those of the elders at your ordination].
(HOLY SPIRIT gift)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting. 2 Cor.4:15-18[SUP]1
[/SUP]
Isaiah 53 ... But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
When the even was come, they brought unto Him many that were possessed with devils; and He cast out the spirits with His word, and healed all that were sick: 17. That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias (Isaiah) the prophet, saying., Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.8:16-17
I personally believe along with other believers this is saying and it's clear to me that Jesus suffered for our healing and it belongs to me.
I also believe this is the children's bread; portion. It's the gift we were given and each day we are called to walk out who we are in Christ maintaining the ground Jesus bought for us. I agree that I do not have to be sick. And not only sick physically but also sick mentally or confused in any way when I practice (each day )how to walk in the spirit...being built up in the inner man. It's then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh along with it's accompanying problems. This I do believe. Taking verses from all through the Bible and seeing how God honors what Jesus has done at all times... and He honors His word at all times. My part is to believe that by Jesus stripes... the ground has been bought and paid for.. now I hold the ground by faith believing. 2 Tim.1:6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That is why I would remind you to stir up (rekindle the embers of, fan the flame of, and keep burning) the [gracious] gift of God, [the inner fire] that is in you by means of the laying on of my hands [[SUP][a][/SUP]with those of the elders at your ordination].
(HOLY SPIRIT gift)
7 [/SUP]For God did not give us a spirit of timidity (of cowardice, of craven and cringing and fawning fear), but [He has given us a spirit] of power and of love and of calm and well-balanced mind and discipline and self-control.
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]Do not blush or be ashamed then, to testify to and for our Lord, nor of me, a prisoner for His sake, but [[SUP][b][/SUP]with me] take your share of the suffering [to which the preaching] of the Gospel [may expose you, and do it] in the power of God.
[SUP]
9 [/SUP][For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].
9 [/SUP][For it is He] Who delivered and saved us and called us with a calling in itself holy and leading to holiness [to a life of consecration, a vocation of holiness]; [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].
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These promises can't be true for me if I don't believe any of them because I'm looking to my current situation with the eyes and ears and mind of my old man. I need to see the things that Hebrews 1:11 encourages me on to;
Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
And also the verses instructing in the truth that we look to the things THAT ARE NOT SEEN. We are called to look at the unseen because it is in those unseen things where the deathless and everlasting things are. We have been given those things and our minds need to be renewed to the truth of them.
2 Cor.4:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting.
Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].
And also the verses instructing in the truth that we look to the things THAT ARE NOT SEEN. We are called to look at the unseen because it is in those unseen things where the deathless and everlasting things are. We have been given those things and our minds need to be renewed to the truth of them.
2 Cor.4:18
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting.
Amen Ben... PRAISE THE LORD For He is good... His mercies endure forever!! It's a day to day spiritual battle we are in to look beyond our physical senses and be prepared to keep doing it even when we don't see the total healing come at the very moment we pray.
It takes a holding on to the truth when the seed of the Word is planted. The enemy of our souls doesn't want us to be steadfast and immovable in the finished work of Christ., In the Word of God and the walking in the spirit. It's these very trials that teach us how to walk in the spirit and not in our flesh.
Being confident in His love and grace given to us personally so we are able to stand despite what our old manner of life and experiences have taught us. He calls us to the higher calling... to learn how to walk in the spirit now... It's the new and living way., it's our calling for every day we live here until the day Jesus comes for us. Then we won't have to walk by faith.... No more faith will be needed once He comes for us or we go to Him.
If we really think about it, the idea that healing isn't a promise or guarantee is a defense mechanism. If I am not healed, either I am to blame or God is to blame, after having sought healing. Yet, if God doesn't promise healing then not only am I off the hook but so is God. He doesn't have to hasten to do His word (as He says He does) and I don't have to believe in anything, only that God might heal me (because He is sovereign).
Faith with this theology is nonsensical. It is impractical, because there is nothing to have faith in. One might argue they can still have faith in God's mercy, which when thoroughly thought out is just another promise. He is true to His nature and name. That being, Jehovah Rapha, the Lord who heals. So faith is found in a promise that He is faithful to act in the manner He presents Himself.
If healing is not found in Christ, and we cannot have faith for healing because there is no promise or guarantee, on what basis do we seek it? How can faith even be used? What is there to believe in?
Faith with this theology is nonsensical. It is impractical, because there is nothing to have faith in. One might argue they can still have faith in God's mercy, which when thoroughly thought out is just another promise. He is true to His nature and name. That being, Jehovah Rapha, the Lord who heals. So faith is found in a promise that He is faithful to act in the manner He presents Himself.
If healing is not found in Christ, and we cannot have faith for healing because there is no promise or guarantee, on what basis do we seek it? How can faith even be used? What is there to believe in?
And not only that... but if we never take the chance to walk out of our old and familiar flesh with it's HARD HARSH AND VERY REAL EXPERIENCES AND LESSONS... that nearly killed us and caused us to fear very life and limb... Then we will NEVER allow the Holy Spirit to show us the way our new man is called to live.,,, we will not see the new and living way the Holy Spirit wants to take us in. We will stay where we are walking in our flesh and not in the spirit where the miraculous occurs on a daily basis.
He will NOT force us.
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E
We were healed past tense, Yet we suffer cancer, We suffer paraplegia because of accidents, We suffer lung disease and kidney disease, and others diseases, We get the flu and other resperitory diseases. We die of heart attacks, we die of strokes. The point is WE DIE.
Where is this so called HEALING that occurred in the past?
My spiritual health was healed. It was healed to the point I can SUFFER whatever comes my way, and give God the glory for it,. Because NOTHING in this life is so horrific that it can take me eternal life away. This life is but a SHORT SHORT time compaired to eternity, Afte living in heaven for 1000 years. What will this 70 + or - year life even look like, will I even remember m,ugh of it? I complain because I suffered illness or like Joni Eareckson Tada (who has such great faith she went to her friends and said flat out... God will heal me and you will see me walking up to your house. Praise God because the body which was broken on earth has been HEALED in heaven (yes, that is what our physical healing will take place). All those people who jesus healed in MATT Mark Luke and JOhn. All those people the disciples healed in Acts, They still had broken bodies. They still DIED and are still awaiting their ACTUAL healing when they are ressurected.
7
at any rate, you still have not addressed why you would say no one has dealt with Isaiah 53 when it has been dealt with more than anything else when it comes to universal healing
when someone makes a comment like that and it is documented that the comment does not hold water, it would behoove the one who made the comment to acknowledge that they spoke wrongly
but if you are comfortable to making what amounts to clickbait posts from time to time while we can all actually read what is really said, then please do carry on
when someone makes a comment like that and it is documented that the comment does not hold water, it would behoove the one who made the comment to acknowledge that they spoke wrongly
but if you are comfortable to making what amounts to clickbait posts from time to time while we can all actually read what is really said, then please do carry on
Whose faith without works is dead ? Christ's our faithful Creator or the creatures dead in his tresspasses and sin ?
Whose mutual faith worked to cure the man that never walked. Paul the lame person or of Christ?
And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never hadwalked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.Act 14:8
Do we attribute that work of faith as a labor of love to men or God?
Do we make the apostles into gods in the likeness of men?
Whose faith moved Paul to perform the good will of God as it did work in him to perform the good pleasure if not of God ?
What is the spiritual meaning of that parable as to how it relates to the gospel ?
Whose mutual faith worked to cure the man that never walked. Paul the lame person or of Christ?
And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never hadwalked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed,Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.Act 14:8
Do we attribute that work of faith as a labor of love to men or God?
Do we make the apostles into gods in the likeness of men?
Whose faith moved Paul to perform the good will of God as it did work in him to perform the good pleasure if not of God ?
What is the spiritual meaning of that parable as to how it relates to the gospel ?
E
I am sorry, But to say our faith in God healing us of every sickness oand or making us wealthy monetarily, is not the way to see the new and living way God wants us to live, Scripture says it is our FUTURE dwelling place. And our victory in christ that allows us as Paul said to consider even our greatest tribulation or sickness (see Joni Eareckson Tada) as a momentary light affliction.
Well, do we live under OT law? The jews had a promiss for prosper and health, by following the law and obidience to God. And they got also the information what will follow if they break the law and are disobidient to God. Curse!
Why you quoting OT verses to defend your view?
And you are taken words for yours which are given to certain people in a certain situation.
We dont belong to be under the OTunder And I speak for me, I am not belong to the nation of Israel.
I work in Hospital. The most people die not because only of old, but because of an desease which leads to death. And if you see in the past, then you find that they died in a jounger age then today because of our today modern medicine. Will you really tell me that all people which are healed in the past got never sick again and died because of old age. Many people which living without god getting old too and dieing because of their old age. Where is there the different, except the one will spent their days in heaven and the other in hell?
Why you quoting OT verses to defend your view?
And you are taken words for yours which are given to certain people in a certain situation.
We dont belong to be under the OTunder And I speak for me, I am not belong to the nation of Israel.
I work in Hospital. The most people die not because only of old, but because of an desease which leads to death. And if you see in the past, then you find that they died in a jounger age then today because of our today modern medicine. Will you really tell me that all people which are healed in the past got never sick again and died because of old age. Many people which living without god getting old too and dieing because of their old age. Where is there the different, except the one will spent their days in heaven and the other in hell?
Well Stones, you gave not realy an answer to my quetions.So long people take biblical text out of purpose and context they are able to create their own truth and believe it. You cant tell me that the word of God is an market place where I can put the words and meanings together according what pleases me.
If you have no jewish roots then you not belong to the folk of Israel.
We are not living in OT time. Ore do we. If you pick out some pleasent verses for you then you must also take the other verses to you. Read the thorah a live according that what is written there. Otherwise you should stop taking OT verses out of context and meaning for defend your view.
It is sadto see how many people are missleaded because of false interpreting of the word of God.
If you have no jewish roots then you not belong to the folk of Israel.
We are not living in OT time. Ore do we. If you pick out some pleasent verses for you then you must also take the other verses to you. Read the thorah a live according that what is written there. Otherwise you should stop taking OT verses out of context and meaning for defend your view.
It is sadto see how many people are missleaded because of false interpreting of the word of God.
Sorry I missed this. I've been busy with life, again! It sure gets in the way of posting in forums, sometimes!
What I said, is that what is found in Isaiah 53, and all through Isaiah, is that a Messiah would come, who would heal the people of their sin sickness. And that is the atonement. Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins. It's called redemption, or propitiation, or other words.
Atonement = payment for sins (in our place) One does not ATONE for sickness. One might take thank offerings for sickness to the temple in the OT, but it was not to ATONE for sickness, but to be thankful for being restored after an illness.
Isaiah also contains prophecies that would identify Jesus when he appeared on earth. He was a suffering servant, in Isa. 53:1-3. He was smitten, beaten, etc. It also prophecies he would be hung on a cross, and that Jesus would heal the people who lived at the same time as him. That is cross referenced in Matt 8:16-17, which clearly says that Jesus healed, So that, Isaiah would be fulfilled.
It no where, in any place says that because Jesus healed and fulfilled the prophecy in Isa. 53, that in the 21st century, that EVERYONE who had enough faith would be healed. And if you weren't healed, it was because you didn't have enough faith. It no where says, everyone would be healed, all the time.It says no where healing is contained in the atonement. I did NOT say healing was in the atonement, because it is NEVER in the text, New or Old Testament! (So Ben, if you somehow read me wrong, I have been clear in saying over and over - healing from physical sickness is NOT contained in the atonement! Nor does it say anywhere that healing is a part of the atonement elsewhere in the Bible. If healing was in the Bible, it would be repeated over and over in both testaments, and associated with temple rites. Leprosy does precede the discussion on cleansing of sins, but even that is NOT about healing, but rather investigations and purifications for infectious skin diseases! Even if you could somehow push the section on infectious skin diseases into the section on atonement, it is NOT found elsewhere, nor does it examine ALL disease, which is what Word Faith claims healing is about - ALL diseases!)
It also clearly says, in Isaiah 1 that Israel was sick in its whole head, from the sole of the foot to the head, with bruises and sores and raw wounds. This is a metaphor for the sin sickness of Israel. It is also part of the metaphor in Isa. 53:4-5 is the prophecy, that is fulfilled in Matt 8:17.
The big issue, as I review this in various translations and in Greek, is that it really difficult to get a read on either Isa. 53:4 or Matt. 8:17, because there is such variation in the various translations, because the words have more than one definition, and even the same translations use different words for the prophecies in the OT and the fulfillment in the NT.
For instance, the word ἀσθενείας can be translated as "illness or weakness." Bauer (BDAG) notes three uses of the word, which is a feminine noun.
1. state of debilitating illness, sickness, disease. Matt 8:17
2. incapacity for something or experience of limitation, weakness eg. 1 Cor. 15:43, Hebrews 5:2
3. lack of confidence of feeling of inadequacy, weakness. Of Pauls' self-effacement, timidity 1 Cor. 2:3
However, there is enough wiggle room, that if a translator wanted to downplay how Jesus healed, the word, could be used in the sense of "lack of confidence." This shows how easy it can be for previous theology to influence where the translation is going. Just a warning to anyone who digs for a translation they like, to prove or disprove a point.
So, comparing this fulfillment of prophecy, with the actual prophecy in Isa. 53:4, I find, that the exact words are not repeated even in the same versions. And not one of these versions match each other, let alone themselves.
"But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done." Isa. 53:4 NET
"When it was evening, many demon-possessed people were brought to him. He drove out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. In this way what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled:
"He took our weaknesses and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 NET
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 HCSB
"When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,so that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:He Himself took our weaknessesand carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 HCSB
"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16-17 KJV
"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 KJV
"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 ESV
"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV
"Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ δαιμονιζομένους πολλούς· καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὰ πνεύματα λόγῳ, καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας ἐθεράπευσεν·17 ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:16-17 Greek.
Now, this is VERY important! None of the versions I looked at, does the NT fulfillment perfectly mirror the OT prophecy. And I am in a hurry, I have a major German presentation for Monday, and I do not have time to look closely at the Hebrew, but here is some information from the Septuagint. Here is a look at what the LXX says. (Maybe Marc could examine what the Hebrew says?)
"53:4 – This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment." Isa. 53:4 LXX in translation.
"ἀλλὰ τὸ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ἄτιμον ἐκλεῖπον παρὰ πάντας ἀνθρώπους ἄνθρωπος ἐν πληγῇ ὢν καὶ εἰδὼς φέρειν μαλακίαν ὅτι ἀπέστραπται τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἠτιμάσθη καὶ οὐκ ἐλογίσθη" Isa. 53:3 (4 in our Bibles!)
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/21683/what-does-the-greek-word-μαλακιαν-mean-in-isaiah-533-lxx
The key word "μαλακίαν" or malakian a feminine noun, which in Greek means:
gloss - softness, weakness, weakliness, ailment
1. condition of bodily weakness, debility, weakness, sickness (Matt 4:23, 9:3; 10:1)
2. condition of inner weakness, faint hearted, dependency, lack of energy which is not found in the NT.
Do we translate it as "sickness" or as "inner weakness?"
And, please note the same words do not even appear in Greek in the prophecy in Isa. 53:4 and Matt 8:16-17, although in looking at a cross section of translations, they are universal in their translation of Kakos as "sickness." See below. In fact, the word Kakos, does NOT readily translate as "sickness" although most versions translate it that way, and certainly Jesus did heal their diseases, νόσους in the prophecy. (Physical malady, disease, illness!)
Well, I do believe the both Isaiah and his audience, and later the translation committee for the LXX knew what they were talking about. But, do we? It is hard, 2600 some years later to reach back in the past, and decide exactly what Isaiah was talking about. And, this whole discussion reflects the fact, that in our society, we constantly want to pin down words with mathematical precision, which did not exist in those days. No computers, just valiant efforts to retain the original words, by scribes, which wasn't always successful. So, the next time some of you go searching for a translation that reflects YOUR personal theology, remember the ancient people would not even begin to understand anything to do with complete purity, nor that there wasn't a LOT of leeway on the meanings of word.
My take home?
Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is clearly the atonement, and what the book of Isaiah prophecies. And the whole Bible. Adam and Eve were not sick, when God told them that the woman's offspring would attack the serpent.(Ge. 3:15) Isaiah is a book written both to warn the Israelites an Judaeans that they needed to repent and return to the Lord. In fact, that is pretty much the message of ALL the prophets. That the Israelites were sinful, idolatrous people, who needed to repent,and remember that the Messiah was coming. NEVER is this call to repentance, and prophecies about the Messiah about diseases, other than during Jesus ministry. It is always a bad doctrine to use a few part verses, where the words cannot be pinned down with precision, and make huge doctrine, changing the entire point of the atonement, based on wrong readings of a few short verses. Also a mistake to make a promise about what Jesus would do, into a claim for complete healing for every Christian,which is no where found in Isa. 53 or any other text. Read the whole Bible, stop reading a few bible snippets in some one else's writings, or pulling verses out of context to make false doctrine.
Then, it is a book on who that coming Lord is! Jesus is the Suffering servant, who suffered for our sins, and died on the cross for our salvation. Isa. 53:4 is a clear prophecy of Jesus earthly ministry. It says that Jesus will heal their diseases, in Order to FULFILL what was spoke by the prophet Isaiah - that being, he would heal the illnesses and diseases of the people of the first century. Even to ALL their Kakos! πάντας τοὺς κακῶς Now, kakos is another word with many definitions.
1 Pertaining to sing socially or morally reprehensible,bad, evil.
a. of human characteristics, actions, emotions,plans - bad
2. Pertaining to being harmful or injurious - evil, injurious, dangerous, pernicious
3. Certain passages far between 1 & 2, harm caused by evil.
Jesus did not die on the cross for our healing! There simply is NO way that this prophecy means, every believer is healed for all time, if they just have enough faith.
Yes, during his earthly ministry Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! So, Jesus does heal.And I believe he does heal today, I have never said differently. But, healing on demand, naming and claiming it, or healing as part of the atonement is simply not found in these passages, nor in 1 Peter 2:24, which I don't have time to get into today, I simply must go and do some homework.