Healing in the Atonement?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113
Here is a longer article which defines what "atonement" means, using the Bible, Hebrew and Greek. Not a word about healing in the atonement! The atonement is about reconciliation to God from sin. Healing diseases is something Jesus did, and some of the apostles, but it is NEVER mentioned as part of the atonement. Never! (Sorry, neither the Hebrew or Greek words [in light blue] came through properly, please click on the link to the article, below to see the words!)

Atonement

That the Bible's central message is atonement, that is, that God has provided a way for humankind to come back into harmonious relation with him, is everywhere apparent in Scripture. From the first stories in Genesis to the last visions of Revelation, God seeks to reconcile his people to himself. Atonement, however, cannot be usefully discussed in this way, and translators have settled on it, and its cognate expressions, as a translation for a relatively circumscribed number of nouns and verbs in the Bible.

The Old Testament In the Old Testament atonement, and related phrases, such as sacrifice of atonement, most often translates the Hebrew piel verb kipur [ruPiK] and two related nouns, one, kippurim, found always in the plural and signifying the noun equivalent of kipur [ruPiK], and the other, kapporeth [t,roP;K], meaning the so-called mercy-seat or the place where the sacrifice of atonement happens. These occur with meanings related to atonement around 140 times, almost always in the context of the cults, as a sacrifice for sins and to provide reconciliation to God.
The breadth of the use of the concept in the Old Testament is striking. Atonement is provided for inanimate objects such as a mildewing house, the altar in the temple, the sanctuary (i.e., the Holy of Holies within the Tent of Meeting), the holy place, and the tent of meeting/temple itself. In one place atonement is also provided for an animal, the scapegoat used in the atonement rituals found in Leviticus 16. Sacrifice accomplishes atonement "for sins" in many places, though these passages always mean atonement for people "because of" their sins rather than atonement "on behalf of" sins, as if sins were being personified and therefore in need of redemption. Of course, the majority of all the references are to atonement on behalf of people, either individually or as members of the community of Israel.

Atonement for inanimate objects is found twelve places in the Old Testament: ex 29:36-37; 30:10; le 8:15; 14:53; 16:10, 16, 18, 20; eze 43:20, 26; 45:20. Eleven of these passages refer to cleansing either the tent/temple, one of its rooms, or the altar inside it. The lone exception refers to the cleansing of a contaminated house. In one of the stranger passages of the Law, God instructs Moses and Aaron about the purification rites they are to apply to a house that has "a spreading mildew" and declares that, if a house responds to the treatment, then it can be declared clean ( Lev 14:33-53 ). The priest cleanses the house by sacrificing a bird, and dipping cedar wood, hyssop, scarlet yarn, and a live bird in the blood of the dead bird, then sprinkling the blood on the house seven times. He then is to release the live bird into the open fields outside the town. "In this way he will make atonement for the house, and it will be clean" ( Lev 14:53 ).

The entire passage significantly echoes the preceding passage in which a human being undergoes the same investigations and purifications for infectious skin diseases, and it anticipates the important regulations of Leviticus 16 concerning the Day of Atonement, the most important sacrifice of all, when sacrifice is made for the cleansing of the sins of all the people. The point is apparently that the surface of the skin can demonstrate a deeper sickness underneath as can the surface of a house; both need to be cleansed of that deeper sickness as does the human heart of its sin.

Far more important are the references to the atonement of the Tent of Meeting, the temple, the holy place, the sanctuary, and the altar. These take place in the contexts of the ordination of priests ( Exod 29:35-37 ; Lev 8:15 ), God's instructions for the building of the eschatological temple in the later chapters of Ezekiel ( Ezekiel 43:20 Ezekiel 43:26 ; 45:20 ), and the Day of Atonement itself ( Leviticus 16:16 Leviticus 16:18Leviticus 16:20 ). The need for cleansing the buildings, the altar and the sanctuaries is due to the fact that these are the meeting places of the divine, Holy One with his people. The holiness and purity of God are so emphasized that not only does he and the one who approaches him have to be pure, but even the means of their communication and relationship must be covered by the blood of an atoning sacrifice because of its contamination by sin.

It is perhaps important that this cleansing of inanimate objects, with the lone exception of the house (which seems to serve as an analog to human cleansing), is limited to the house of God and its parts. There is no sense that the world is God's place of meeting and in need of a cleansing sacrifice of atonement, but rather that the special cultic and covenantal relationship that God has with his people is what is in need of purification. This is not to deny that the world has been infected by sin, just that the particular relationship of redemption that God has with his covenant people is not extended to the whole world, but simply to the people of Israel, and even that is vicarious, that is, through the priests and their cultic duties.

Primary among the objects of atonement in the Old Testament are the people of God, but the means of atonement can vary. Goats, sheep, and birds are listed among the acceptable animals to be sacrificed, but there were also grain, oil, and drink offerings. Ransom money can provide atonement for the lives of the people; God commands at least one census to be made of the people at which each participant pays the same amount to buy his life and the lives of his family from God, who promises no plague will harm them when they do pay ( Exod 30:11-16 ). Significantly, the money is to be used to support the services of the Tent of Meeting, hence tying it to the sacrifice of blood for atonement, if only in a tangential way. The other nonanimal sacrifices are often equally tied to atonement by blood.

Certainly the most frequently mentioned means of atonement in the Old Testament were the blood sacrifices, dominating the use of the term by constant reference in the books of Leviticus and Numbers. Atonement needed to be made for everything from heinous crimes like idolatry ( Num 16:47 ) to mistakes of intent, when the only sin was ignorance or error, not willful disobedience ( Num 15:22-29 ).

Perhaps the heart of the Old Testament teaching on atonement is found in Leviticus 16, where the regulations for the Day of Atonement occur. Five characteristics relating to the ritual of the Day of Atonement are worthy of note because they are generally true of atonement as it is found throughout Scripture: (1) the sovereignty of God in atonement; (2) the purpose and result of making atonement; (3) the two goats emphasize two different things, and the burning another, about the removal of sin; (4) that Aaron had to make special sacrifice for himself; (5) the comprehensive quality of the act.
Atonement is clearly the action of God and not of man throughout the Bible, but especially in Leviticus 16. Aaron's two sons, Nadab and Abihu, had been recently put to death by the Lord for disobeying his command by offering "unauthorized fire" before the Lord ( Lev 10:1-3 ). Here God gives Aaron precise instructions concerning how he wants the sacrifices to be made, down to the clothes Aaron is to wear, the bathing rituals in which he is to engage, and the types of sacrificial animals he is to bring. His sovereignty is further emphasized by the fact that the lot is used to choose which goat will be sacrificed and which goat will serve as the scapegoat.

The purpose for the ritual is made very clear in several places. It is to cleanse you "from all your sins" ( Lev 16:30 ). Other passages make it clear that such cleansing results in saving the life of the participant (cf., e.g., Lev 17:11 ). The restoring of pure relationship is an important result, too, since the atonement is for all "uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been" ( Lev 16:16 ). Thus Israel is reunited in purity to its God by the atoning sacrifice for sins.
The symbolic import of the sacrifices is so detailed that three different actions were necessary to display everything that God apparently intended us to understand about the way he was to deal with sin. The sacrificial death of the first goat showed clearly that the offense of sin requires the punishment of death ( Eze 18:4 ). The sending of the second goat into the wilderness with the sins laid on the top of its head emphasizes that sin will be removed from the person and the community "as far as the east is from the west" ( Psalm 103:12 ). The burning of the sacrifice so that it is consumed shows the power of God over sin, completely destroying it so that it can bother the supplicant no more.

Particularly important for the full biblical picture of atonement as it is found in Christ is the sacrifice Aaron makes for himself and his family ( Lev 16:11-14 ). Everyone, even the high priest, is guilty and needs atonement that can only be provided by God himself. The author of Hebrews emphasizes this point to make clear his doctrine of the purity of Christ as both the true and perfect sacrifice and the true and perfect priest who performs the ritual of atonement ( 8:3-6 ; 9:6-15 ). The Old Testament sacrifices are shown to be but shadows of the real sacrifice of Christ on the cross by the fact of Aaron's sinfulness; an imperfect high priest cannot offer a true sacrifice, just as the blood of bulls and goats could never truly pay for the offense of human sin or substitute for the shedding of human blood.

Lastly, atonement covers all the sinsintentional, unintentional, heinous, trivialof those for whom it is intended. No one was to enter the Tent of Meeting until the ritual was over because what was taking place there was for the whole of the community of Israel ( Lev 16:17 ), presumably because any interference with the sovereign action of God's cleansing might bring an impurity into the equation that would nullify the purificatory act. The comprehensive nature of the sacrifice of atonement prefigures the comprehensiveness of the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross, but it limits its effects in the same way the Old Testament limits the effects of its sacrifice on the day of atonementto the people whom God has elected to call his own and them alone.

The New Testament The so-called ransom saying, found in the Gospel of Mark ( 10:45 ; cf. the parallel saying at Matt 20:28 ), has been much disputed as to its authenticity, but its theological content is clear. Speaking in the context of the apostles' dispute over which of them is the greatest, Jesus relates his mission to two things: serving all and giving his life as a ransom for many. Like many of the teachings of Jesus, the saying dramatically extends the answer to an immediate question or problem (that of the selfishness and pride of the apostles) to include something that no one would have linked to that problem (the ransom nature of the cross). The saying of course primarily relates the death of Christ to the metaphor of service; giving his life is the greatest example of servanthood that can be imagined. The fact that his death is also a ransom links the idea of atonement to the servant spirit of the Christ, probably in the light of the famous servant song of Isaiah 53.

The second Gospel passage relating to atonement appears in the eucharistic words of Jesus recorded in all three Gospels ( Matt 26:26-29 ; = Mark 14:22-25 ; = Luke 22:15-20 ). At Luke 22:19-20, Jesus asserts that both the bread and the wine symbolize the fact that his death would be "for you" (huper humon[uJpevruJmw'n]), a phrase not found in the other Gospels (though the notion of the blood of Christ being "poured out for many" is found in both Matthew and Mark). The key element linking the passage in all three Gospels to atonement is the sacrificial nature of the language; the poured-out blood is the blood of the lamb of Leviticus 16, sacrificed "for the forgiveness of sins" (Matt 26:28).
To discuss Paul on atonement is, again, to make a choice between a thorough discussion of Paul's soteriology and limiting oneself to a discussion of the meaning of hilasterion [iJlasthvrion] in Romans 3:25. Space does not even allow for a full evaluation of the latter in this article. The preponderance of the evidence weighs in favor of a translation that recognizes the background of Leviticus 16 in the crucial passage. Some now argue that Paul intends a quite specific reference to the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant and that hilasterion [iJlasthvrion] should be translated "mercy seat."
In any case the passage occurs in a clear context of God's righteous, wrathful judgment against the sins of humankind (Rom 1:18-3:31; cf. esp. 1:18; 2:5) and declares God's merciful action of atonement on behalf of his people. He takes an action that is rightly called "substitutionary, " putting his Son in our place and so remaining just but also demonstrating his mercy (3:25-26). This shuts out any possibility for humankind to boast of its having saved itself (3:27). Thus the themes of sovereignty, mercy, and comprehensiveness that we saw present in Leviticus 16 are paramount in the mind of Paul too.
The same applies to the rest of the references to hilasterion and its cognates (hilaskomai [iJlasmov"], hilasmos [iJlasmov"]) in the New Testament. Hebrews 2:17 points squarely at Jesus as the high priests of Leviticus 16 who offers a sacrifice of atonement (hilaskomai [iJlavskomai]) for his brothers and is therefore a merciful and faithful high priest, but who is of course also the very sacrifice he offers, suffering so that he is able to help those who are tempted in their time of need. The oneness both between Jesus and the redeemed and between God and humanity is emphasized by the family metaphor used throughout the context of the passage (Heb 2:10-17). Similarly, in 1 John 2:2 Jesus' sacrifice of atonement (hilasmos[iJlasmov"]) is powerful enough to heal the sins of the whole world and unite it to God, but it is only "Jesus Christ, the Righteous One" (1 John 2:1) who can accomplish this. God's sovereignty and love in atonement are clearly seen in 1jo 4:10 and cap the New Testament teaching on this essential doctrine: our love for God is not the issue, but rather his for us and it is this love that has both motivated and produced the sacrifice of atonement (hilasmos [iJlasmov"]) necessary for healing the relationship of God to man. So the biblical teaching about atonement is summed up: "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" (1 Jo 4:10).
Andrew H. Trotter, Jr.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/atonement/


 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
What I found about universal healing is that it's part of the Pentecostal renewal beginning, and it just means healing included in the atonement.

However, all my relatives both sides of parents believed healing to be the children's bread. Methodists on my fathers side. Church of God, mothers. Non Pentecostal but all believed in the benefit of healing. And sanctification.

Denial of this seems to go with denial of the gifts. Though there are a couple who say they move in gifts but deny healing.
I haven't heard anyone here deny healing.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113


Jesus did not die on the cross for our healing! There simply is NO way that this prophecy means, every believer is healed for all time, if they just have enough faith.

Yes, during his earthly ministry Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! So, Jesus does heal. And I believe he does heal today, I have never said differently. But, healing on demand, naming and claiming it, or healing as part of the atonement is simply not found in these passages, nor in 1 Peter 2:24, which I don't have time to get into today, I simply must go and do some homework.
I wonder why people keep coming up with this "no healing today" line?
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
I've learned that it is of the utmost importance that we walk by faith and not by sight. That we be encouraged in the faith and be co laborers with Christ in the work here on earth. That we keep before us the truth that God heals in Christ because Jesus paid for it and called us to also be ministers of His work. We are to join in the ministry of reconciliation. Below are testimonies of healing and that God is the God of yes and Amen because of Jesus.


At one of my Gospel Truth Seminars, I ministered to a man who had detached retinas. I was standing right in front of him, and he said I was just a blur. With the service about to start, I only had a moment to minister, so I told him to come forward at the end, and one of our prayer ministers would continue the process. He did and, after further ministry, gave a great testimony. Not only could he see me clearly, but he could see the faces of the people at the back of the auditorium. Thank You, Jesus! That’s a miracle!


In the same service, a woman came forward whose eyes were clouded with cataracts. She could barely see, but after the prayer minister prayed for her, the white glaze over her eyes was gone, and she said her eyesight was great. Another man came off the oxygen tank he had been attached to for months. Deaf ears were opened; cancers were cured; and backs were healed. Hallelujah!


The most exciting thing to me about these miracles is that I’m NOT the one who prayed for most of these people.
Not long ago, I was doing all of the ministry. Don’t misunderstand; I enjoy ministering God’s healing to people. But, as the crowds grew, it became difficult to pray for everyone. I often prayed with people till after midnight, and yet there were many more that couldn’t stay and left without their healing. Now that we have prayer ministers, hundreds of people can be ministered to each night. Many more miracles are taking place, and it’s especially satisfying to see them experience the same and even better results than I do.


I think this sends a much needed signal to all who will listen; television ministers are not the only ones who can operate in this miraculous power of God! Praise God for the true men and women of God on television, but Jesus said that believers will lay hands on the sick, and the sick will recover (Mark 16:18). The job of the minister is to train the body of Christ so that they can do the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12). The day of the one-man show in the body of Christ needs to come to an end, and we’re literally seeing that take place in our meetings.


Some of the local prayer ministers we train have never seen a miracle happen through them before. I remember one man who helped us at a seminar. He received instruction and training, and on the very first night saw a person’s blind eyes open when he prayed. He told us the next day that he was so excited, he didn’t sleep all night. Not only did the blind person get healed, but I can guarantee you, that young man will never be the same. That is awesome!


Would you like to see the blind receive their sight or the lame walk when you pray? Do you desperately need healing yourself? Here’s the good news—whether you’re praying for another’s healing or receiving your own, it’s available to every true follower of Christ! Jesus gave every disciple who believes the power and authority to do the same works that He did. What a statement! But it is absolutely true. John 14:12 says,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


All believers will do the same works that Jesus did; it’s not limited to ministers. There’s just a shortage of believing believers.
How do you get to the place where you can see the miraculous happen in and through you? It starts with the renewing of your mind. Faith is based on knowledge, and everything we need to know to be a victorious Christian is explained in God’s Word.
That’s what the Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3-4:

“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”



Amen. I'm thankful for the ministers like Andrew Wommach and other., preachers and teachers God sends the body of Christ. That God uses the internet and tv and radio to get the word out. How beautiful .... Romans 10:15

For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]The Scripture says, No man who believes in Him [who adheres to, relies on, and trusts in Him] will [ever] be put to shame or be disappointed.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP][No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith].
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!]
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us?
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).



 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
Ok sir...I have a question for you, but I almost feel unworthy to address someone with so much superior faith than I have, but here it goes anyhow....

Just how many people have you yourself and the elders of your church laid hands on and healed? If it has not been 100% of the people that came before you then why not?
For the same reason why Jesus didn't have a 100% success rate.
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
168
13
18
How about going to posts 142 - 148 and showing us where we were wrong? Or is that too hard?
I don't see the point. It's very obvious what the context is. The Bible interprets itself, and Matthew tells us that the context of Isaiah 53:4,5 is physical healing. If the context was spiritual healing Matthew would have said "when evening came they brought to Him all kinds of sinners and He spiritually healed them that it might be fulfilled ...." You guys are the ones twisting the scriptures to fit your theology, not us.

[FONT=&quot]16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 

davida

Senior Member
Sep 9, 2017
115
1
0
They would rather blame God than themselves.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
211
63
69
Walk trough the valley
"According to your Faith so be it to you." If you follow Jesus with all your heart, "Whatever you ask for believing that you receive you shall have." Have not looked at responses except the last few, but according to these verses everyone should be correct, concerning what they believe. These words also apply to most debates here, that "You shall have what we say."
 
Last edited:

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
211
63
69
Walk trough the valley
"According to your Faith so be it to you." If you follow Jesus with all your heart, "Whatever you ask for believing that you receive you shall have." Have not looked at responses except the last few, but according to these verses everyone should be correct, concerning what they believe. These words also apply to most debates here, that "You shall have what we say."
Felt I should correct my own post: was healed of internal bleading, not because I believed and prayed but because I forgave the woman who was praying for me: for leaving me. We remained friends but I had unresolved anger that contributed to allergies that I was ignoring and I was bleeding internally and could not move without pain. I was addicted to smoking pot and going from bad to worse looking for comfort where there was none, in ungodly women. That was about 8 years ago, I have been out of addiction for 2 years.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't see the point. It's very obvious what the context is. The Bible interprets itself, and Matthew tells us that the context of Isaiah 53:4,5 is physical healing. If the context was spiritual healing Matthew would have said "when evening came they brought to Him all kinds of sinners and He spiritually healed them that it might be fulfilled ...." You guys are the ones twisting the scriptures to fit your theology, not us.

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.

So in other words. You can not go back to those posts and show us where we were wrong,. Your going to stick to the same old story.

All Matthew proves is that Isaiah shows that one of the signs of the one who would make atonement for us would be that he (personally) will heal people.

Your still stuck with the rest of Isaiah, which if you read all those responses. Has nothing to do with physical healing, but atonement made for sin.

But of course, You will not listen to anyone anyway, You think Mathew proves your right (which it does not) and you will stick to it.

Feel free.

But you lied when you said no one responded to your question. Many people have, so you still have tainted your reputation. Of course, youy could repent and tell people you made a mistake, and better yet, go to all those posts. And point by point prove them wrong.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
They would rather blame God than themselves.
Blame God for what? For me not being healed? I have no power to heal myself. And if God says he is not going to take our illness or physical pain or physical disability, I am not going to question God I am going to praise him and move on serving others, and not pout and cry over whatever ails me.


 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
That's a strange perspective.
Are you a confessed Believer?
Yes, I confess what I believe, as it is written.
The fact is, Jesus wasn't able to do many mighty works in His hometown because of their unbelief.
Jesus both wanted to heal the people of His hometown, and was able to do so, but because they couldn't believe, He was not able to do many mighty works.
That's all I was getting at.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
35
0
Yes, I confess what I believe, as it is written.
The fact is, Jesus wasn't able to do many mighty works in His hometown because of their unbelief.
Jesus both wanted to heal the people of His hometown, and was able to do so, but because they couldn't believe, He was not able to do many mighty works.
That's all I was getting at.
Yeah I imagine you do confess what "you believe.


Matt 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.

But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

Mark
Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.

“Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him? What are these remarkable miracles he is performing? 3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph,[a] Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

4 Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home.” 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
3,100
180
63
This may seem poorly worded, but consider it. Why should a person have faith that God will heal them? Okay, now another. On what basis can they have faith that God will heal them? All right, so after considering these two questions lets reflect on what faith is. In regards to prayer, and the prayer being answered, what does scripture say? It says to pray, believe that you have received, and it will be yours (Mark 11:24). Knowing then that faith is in part an expectation, I ask, on what basis can we expect to be healed by God?

Is your answer that we cannot expect God to heal us? If that is your answer, then there can be no faith to be healed. Why? Because faith is itself an expectation, and without that assurance you're simply left with hope. "I hope God heals me" is not the same line of thinking that scripture presents for prayer as "believe that you have received it." Do you notice something here? Personal responsibility is voided when we present doctrines that omit faith and instead put its reliance on "God's will" and hope.

Does this blame the sick person? No, it offers them a solution. One that God has spoken to me. Believe. To this I say, on what basis may we believe, specifically for healing? It must be God's word. In knowing God's word, we comprehend His will, and in understanding His will, we can have faith, expect of him, to do that which He wills. Why? God is not a liar. So, believe.

If healing is not through Christ, solidified through some form of assurance (knowing God's will), we cannot have faith to be healed. We are simply left with hope. Yet, the countless stories throughout history and those recorded in the Bible, show humanity reaching out to God as the woman who touched Jesus' garment (for healing). She believed she would be healed, why else touch His garment? So then, shall we too reach towards God, believing He will heal us? Will we have faith? Will our hope be in God, who is faithful? That is for each of us to personally decide.
I very much enjoy reading your posts sir.
You sound like you're saying basically the same thing I have been saying, only you articulate your points more eloquently.
And it looks like you are one of the few who actually sees what faith is, how to get it, what it should be focused on, and how it works.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
I don't see the point. It's very obvious what the context is. The Bible interprets itself, and Matthew tells us that the context of Isaiah 53:4,5 is physical healing. If the context was spiritual healing Matthew would have said "when evening came they brought to Him all kinds of sinners and He spiritually healed them that it might be fulfilled ...." You guys are the ones twisting the scriptures to fit your theology, not us.

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.

Amen! Wanted to re post it. Thank you Lancelot.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Yes, I confess what I believe, as it is written.
The fact is, Jesus wasn't able to do many mighty works in His hometown because of their unbelief.
Jesus both wanted to heal the people of His hometown, and was able to do so, but because they couldn't believe, He was not able to do many mighty works.
That's all I was getting at.

Amen., we are co laborers with Him via faith. He did all the work for our salvation and just as we received Jesus by grace through faith., that is how we walk in Him. Thank You Jesus.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Blame God for what? For me not being healed? I have no power to heal myself. And if God says he is not going to take our illness or physical pain or physical disability, I am not going to question God I am going to praise him and move on serving others, and not pout and cry over whatever ails me.


Has God ever said no EG? Sounds a bit strange when the scriptures say yes, and amen. Do you need me to post it?
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Deny healing in the atonement stunned. You know, the topic of the thread.

Going off on different tangents and rabbit trails from the original topic on a thread is a common occurrence around here. :)
Sometimes we just have to re post many times to get back the topic. How are you this evening Stonesoffire? Good to see you.