Healing in the Atonement?

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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There are plenty of Christians with rock solid faith who have asked for healing and it has never materialized. Epaphroditus was undoubtedly a man of great faith, but he almost died -- he was seriously sick. God had mercy on him and on Paul in that he finally recovered. But there was no guarantee for Epaphroditus. Now if healing was guaranteed in the Atonement, Epaphroditus should have been the last person to get sick. He was an outstanding servant of the Lord.

Physical healing is NOT guaranteed to Christians, neither is freedom from afflictions, trials, tribulations, testings, poverty, and martyrdom. So those who claim that if you have enough faith you will be healed are fooling others. And of course the faith healers are simply charalatans becoming prosperous on the backs of gullible Christians. Having said that, God does heal as He pleases, and ultimately all healing which occurs comes from God. Even the use of medical science is ultimately in God's hands for healing. Doctors and surgeons can only take a small part of the credit.

Also, having said that, while the Lord Jesus Christ was on earth He healed absolutely everyone who came to Him or DID NOT come to Him, even those who may not have believed on Him as Messiah. or had faith in His healing powers, or even requested healing. We can take the examples of the man who was blind from birth and totally recovered his sight without requesting any healing. Then we have the cripple at the pool of Bethesda who never expected Jesus to heal him and received the shock of his life when he was totally healed. Why was the Lord doing His signs, wonders and miracles (including His healing miracles)? Because that was a part of the ministry of Messiah on earth, and to incontrovertibly establish that He was indeed the Son of God and the Messiah of Israel.

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know... (Acts 2:22).

But to His disciples He said "In the world ye SHALL have TRIBULATION" (John 16:33) and one of the most troublesome things are sickness and disease. So let's not fool ourselves or others. Some may be healed. Others may be brought "nigh unto death".
tribulation:

[h=1]G2347[/h]θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Total KJV occurrences: 45

affliction:


[h=1]G2347[/h]θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Total KJV occurrences: 45


 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Isaiah 53:4 in particular, when cross referenced with Matthew 8:17. Now, finally, Angela spoke about it right after I made that post albeit it was dismissive to the reality that healing is through Christ. Either way I am glad that Angela actually acknowledged healing is found in Isaiah 53, though she doesn't agree to its universal application.

that was not what moved me to post regarding what you said

anyone can go back and read what Angela has posted...so no, that was not at all why I posted

I posted because you said no one who does not believe in physical healing in the atonement address your claims to Isaiah 53

and you just trotted on past all the things I posted regarding that

I have not seen where Angela says what you say she does...maybe you can point out that

I showed where Paul said that Jesus death was for sins...he never mentioned universal healing
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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tribulation:

G2347

θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Total KJV occurrences: 45

affliction:


G2347

θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.
Total KJV occurrences: 45
Right. So now that you have what the lexicon says, kindly sit down and write a list of everything that could come under the heading of "tribulation". There's no smooth sailing for Christians as the false teachers would have you believe.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
you made a statement Ben that was easily disproved

you ignore that and try to say Angela partway agreed with physical healing in the atonement

maybe she can straighten that out and maybe you can acknowledge what you did

alot of people saw how you tried to say people who do not believe in universal healing never respond to Isaiah

you come on like gangbusters telling everyone else how to behave yet you apparently think you get a grace card for whatever you want to say

it doesn't work that way
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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Right. So now that you have what the lexicon says, kindly sit down and write a list of everything that could come under the heading of "tribulation". There's no smooth sailing for Christians as the false teachers would have you believe.
This is a thread that I've started Nehemiah. Based on biblical facts not mans thought. Though we do post experiences both negative and positive. There are two ways of looking at atonement. I have read that this is so.

That is the discussion,

My way is to look at every word. And I let the scriptures speak to me.

Right now I am investigating the Word visited. I'm a woman of the Word. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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you made a statement Ben that was easily disproved

you ignore that and try to say Angela partway agreed with physical healing in the atonement

maybe she can straighten that out and maybe you can acknowledge what you did

alot of people saw how you tried to say people who do not believe in universal healing never respond to Isaiah

you come on like gangbusters telling everyone else how to behave yet you apparently think you get a grace card for whatever you want to say

it doesn't work that way
Seven

what is meant by universal healing? I view this as personal because not all was healed while Jesus was here. It's a benefit IMO, and we have "rights" of inheritance. Universal healing is new to me.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
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I know Paul asked the Lord to remove the thorn from his side and that did not happen. I know God has healed me from many things, addiction and mental illness being the two biggest. Why me and not someone else? I do not know. I suppose when it comes to healing my favorite verses are..


John 9:24-25
24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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1. Know1, thank you for your Input. Do you Realy believe Faith is an Law and you can Command God to do what you want, by positiv thinking and manipulative speeches.

2. I know that our father can heal and he does. I know that he want that we trust him.He Sees our Heart and he is mercyful. He loves his Children. But if you say now that all christians which suffer because of diseases ore are handycapted and the reason for this is the lack of their faith, then is this is a false teaching.

3. I have the same Bible as you, but I cant find a promiss for christians to a life in health and without any diseases ore physical weakness ore mental sickness.

4. If you were right why we find such teachings not in the letters of the Nt? I know only one promiss to live in health and this i find in revelation 21,4. But this is on the new earth, not in our old one.


5. Of course you can believe what you want, but many are deceived through such teachings which promises Things which our father Never has promissed for our Journey on earth.
1. No sir, I do not believe what you said. First, let me say, I don't believe what I'm saying is truth, I KNOW it is. Faith is indeed a law even as all the promises are law. Again, I KNOW this as fact, mainly because it is written.
The bible says that Jesus is the Word of God and Truth. So if I command something to be done by the word of God, in the name of Jesus, I have in a sense, commanded God to do something. There's obviously more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.
Also, faith has nothing to do with "positive thinking" or manipulating the words that come out of my mouth. You are free to both think and say what you will, are you not? The same holds true for everyone. If I choose to verbally quote God's promises, reminding Him of His word, as He told us to do, how have I manipulated anything, or God, for that matter?
As I said in other posts, if we send or direct the word of God at, in, or toward something or someone, we are only doing what Jesus commanded, which is to learn of Him and follow His example, or do what He did.
It also has nothing to do with positive anything, even as faith has nothing to do with the head.
Faith IS the very thing you believe.
Believing is of the heart, not the head. You can think positively all you want, and it wont change a thing. If what you desire is not in your heart, then it ain't gonna happen. That's just the way God made it.
Again, there's more to it than that.


2. To say that a lack of faith is the only reason why people don't get their healing, would be a false and misleading statement.
There a are other reasons why most don't get their healing, but the main reason is because they lack faith. And one reason why they lack the faith is because they either doubt, or don't know, what God will do. And the main reason for that is because, one, they don't believe what is written, and two, they are constantly being taught things like, "you don't know what God's going to do", and "let us pray the will of God be done concerning your healing", and it goes on and on with all the doubt. Most can't stand on their own, when it comes to having enough knowledge of God's word to stand against so many savvy intellectual teachers.
You already demonstrated that you don't have faith for healing by what you said, and are you going to tell me that you do have enough faith?
Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works.


3. That's because you're so critical of the doctrine to start with and you have yet to seek God and dig in His word. It's there.
I already showed some verses, as have many others here on CC, but everything goes over your head and everyone else's who are against the doctrine. So why would you even think you could find it, much less, be able to see it. Your eyes are still shut and your ears are still closed to the promises/truths of God.


4. That I don't know, but I suppose it would be for the same reason why the things that ARE written are not happening in your church. That being that they might not have know about the things we know today.
The important thing is, WHAT IS WRITTEN.
I don't follow people, and neither do I care what they say. I follow the leading of the Spirit. I don't HOLD ANY DOCTRINE DEAR to me, so I don't have any biases, UNTIL I KNOW OTHERWISE. When I get a revelation for any doctrine, I am forever settled. Until I know, I listen to BOTH sides, while seeking God with a pure heart. And because His word guarantees that He will not give me anything evil, corrupt, or a lie, when I ask Him for the truth, I know He will only reveal the truth, or that which is good, to me. Because He promised He would, with a holy solemn promise.


5. You are speaking out of both ignorance and bias, my friend.
Unlike you and many others who appose the doctrine, I don't argue about things I know nothing about, on the contrary, I speak both what I see and understand, as it was given to me.
I don't say things I can't back up with scripture.
No, I don't know everything, as I have said, I'm still learning, but concerning this doctrine and others like it, I am grounded and settled deep in the rock of my salvation. That rock being, the living Word of God.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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What I found about universal healing is that it's part of the Pentecostal renewal beginning, and it just means healing included in the atonement.

However, all my relatives both sides of parents believed healing to be the children's bread. Methodists on my fathers side. Church of God, mothers. Non Pentecostal but all believed in the benefit of healing. And sanctification.

Denial of this seems to go with denial of the gifts. Though there are a couple who say they move in gifts but deny healing.
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
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I asked this before but it got little response, so I'll answer myself.

Does Isaiah 53:4,5 apply to us in 2018? Most would answer that it does. If so, what is the context? If the context includes physical healing then we can conclude that physical healing belongs to us. According to Matthew 8:16,17 the context is indeed physical healing. Therefore, physical healing belongs to us. It's really no more complicated than that.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I asked this before but it got little response, so I'll answer myself.

Does Isaiah 53:4,5 apply to us in 2018? Most would answer that it does. If so, what is the context? If the context includes physical healing then we can conclude that physical healing belongs to us. According to Matthew 8:16,17 the context is indeed physical healing. Therefore, physical healing belongs to us. It's really no more complicated than that.

It was answered in posts 142 - 148.

It has NOTHING to do with physical healing. It was thoroughly refuted. Of course. Non of you even looked at or responded to them. Go figure.

 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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I asked this before but it got little response, so I'll answer myself.

Does Isaiah 53:4,5 apply to us in 2018? Most would answer that it does. If so, what is the context? If the context includes physical healing then we can conclude that physical healing belongs to us. According to Matthew 8:16,17 the context is indeed physical healing. Therefore, physical healing belongs to us. It's really no more complicated than that.
If so, then were is the physical healing from every single christian during the whole churchhistorie till now. On what all christians during the churchhistorie till now died?
And dont tell me their faith was not strong enough ore they did not expect that God wantet to heal them.
Sometimes i wonder we are living on the same planet earth. Ore do you see not the reality?
If our heavenly father want that we are live without sickness and handycap we would independ how strong our faith would be. Because our eternal life is a free not deserved gift, right?
Should be then also our health not a free not deserved gift too?
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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If so, then were is the physical healing from every single christian during the whole churchhistorie till now. On what all christians during the churchhistorie till now died?
And dont tell me their faith was not strong enough ore they did not expect that God wantet to heal them.
Sometimes i wonder we are living on the same planet earth. Ore do you see not the reality?
If our heavenly father want that we are live without sickness and handycap we would independ how strong our faith would be. Because our eternal life is a free not deserved gift, right?
Should be then also our health not a free not deserved gift too?
So our father promissed us eternal life, but nowhere he promissed us a life in health and wealth.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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You are completely missing it if you think that God said that he will heal everyone all the time. Nothing that you or anyone else here has posted shows any scripture where that is promised. You are deceiving yourself if you think it does.


And Just exactly who are you to question my faith? Like I said before, I believe in healing. I've witnessed it first hand and let me just say, from my experience, there was no, God started gradually healing people. There was no paying the preacher or church for healing, going on either.

Then again, I've also seen God not heal people and seen many good Spirit filled Christians full of faith go to the grave with illnesses. Some of which had received healing of other issues ( not the one they died with) previously in their lives. So Just so you know, I've read the word of God and there is no way that I'm buying into what WoF is selling. God's will shall be done and that is what we should be praying for anyhow. I don't know what people don't get about that. God knows what is best for everyone and we need to pray that his will be done. In my opinion, instead of people being so worried about riches and health in this world, they need to get their minds set on things above.

I'm going to say this once more...Yeah healing is real and yeah faith can move mountains...I've been there and witnessed it myself....but healing is not promised all the time for everyone anywhere in the scripture.
Okay ma'am, but even though it wouldn't do me any good to show you what the word of God says, I will show you anyway.
Again, God said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", and perish for lack of vision.
That fits you and many others to a tee. You are both willfully ignorant and have purposefully rejected His knowledge.
He also said that ALL His promises IN Christ Jesus are, yeah and amen.
Perhaps one of the problems is that the person isn't IN CHRIST, when they think they are.

Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

There is no doubt that the prayer of faith will raise the person up, even if it was a sin that caused them to be sick.
God will first forgive and then heal them.
That is God's guarantee to the believers, NOT to the doubters, wishful thinkers, hopers, waiverers, double-minded, or wonderers.

You ask me who I am to question your faith.
Answer, someone who KNOWS what faith is and how it works. Of which, you have demonstrated yet again, that you don't have any faith for healing.
I will point this fact out to you again, as I have done to others.
There is absolutely no faith when you don't know what the will of God is.
You are confusing hope with God's kind of believing, and wishful thinking with faith.
Wondering what God is going to do, concerning someone's healing, doesn't sound at all like CONFIDENT ASSURANCE.
You certainly can't say you know, nor can you even be bold about the thing.
Those are just a few of the facts.

Wishful thinking-
The illusion or what you wish for is actually true

Wishing-
To hope or have a desire for the future or fortune of
An expression of some desire or inclination

Hoping-
Optimistic, with some possibility of fulfillment

Faith-
Complete confidence in a person or plan etc

Believe-
Accept as true; take to be true

There's nothing wrong with desiring God's will to be done, but you should know that the word of God IS THE WILL OF GOD?
What is written IS the will of God, concerning healing, so I don't have to pray for His will to be done. I already KNOW what it is, because He told me in His word.
Jesus came to DESTROY THE WORKS OF the devil, and sicknesses and diseases ARE DEFINITELY, WORKS OF the devil. They are not the works of God.
They are curses of the devil and NOT blessings of and from God. So you should stop treating it like it is, because it isn't.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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We can bring up many that haven't been healed. And to accuse anyone of anything is not the Lords way. I heard an answer from one who does have a gift of healing included in his ministry concerning this, and he said why say the sick has a lack of faith, would it not be the one that is praying?

Why do those in other countries have so many healings and deliverances in their midst?

Fortunately now in the younger ministries coming up there is a fire burning within them to bring healing to our country.

Exodus 14:13 Moses told the people, "Don't be afraid! Stand still and watch how the LORD will deliver you today, because you will never again see the Egyptians whom you're looking at today.

The KJV says stand still and see the salvation of the Lord. Would any of you say this does not apply to today? Havevyou not been told told that Passover represents the blood of Jesus? Egypt being delivered from sin? Pharaoh as a picture of Satan?

So let's look at the word salvation.

H3444

יְשׁוּעָה

yeshû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.
Total KJV occurrences: 78

Yeshua! The very name of our Saviour!

Health, prosperity, deliverance. The Cross of Jesus, His life giving blood! His name showing the very benefits that He bought for us.

Hath God said?


Mat 17:14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,


Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.


Mat 17:16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.


Mat 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.


Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.


Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?


Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


Mat 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

unbelief. I didn't say it. He did.

So war against the lies that our enemy has caused us to be skeptical of the truth.

I had to. I still have to. These forums are a breeding ground of unbelief. Over the scriptures that you all say you believe.

And those who state they believe attacked by Christians?



reposting..
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
168
13
18
If so, then were is the physical healing from every single christian during the whole churchhistorie till now. On what all christians during the churchhistorie till now died?
And dont tell me their faith was not strong enough ore they did not expect that God wantet to heal them.
Sometimes i wonder we are living on the same planet earth. Ore do you see not the reality?
If our heavenly father want that we are live without sickness and handycap we would independ how strong our faith would be. Because our eternal life is a free not deserved gift, right?
Should be then also our health not a free not deserved gift too?
Physical healing in the atonement doesn't mean that we won't get old and die. After all, everybody that Jesus healed eventually died. It just means that we don't have to die from sickness. We can just live out our days in health and when our bodies wear out we go home to be with Jesus.

[FONT=&quot]25 “So you shall serve the Lord your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]26 No one shall suffer miscarriage or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. (Ex. 23:25,26)

Hebrews 8:6 says that we have a better covenant, so if they could live out their days free from sickness why shouldn't we?[/FONT]
 
Mar 28, 2016
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To state that God can heal us is to state the obvious, He is God. To state that God may heal us is to state one's hope.
Yes we can always prayer for the obvious as that which is common to man or take a little wine which is good for the kind of ailments and call for the doctor as to the kind of sickness that which is not used to represent the gospel.(supernatural not seen)

No sign gifts for Charismatic to prove one has the eternal gospel.


But what is it to state that God will heal us? It is a statement of faith. It is an expectation. How do we go from believing God can heal us, to believing that He will heal us? Is such a jump, such a leap, biblical?
I think you meant might heal us there are not guarantees of temp healing in respect to the the flesh . In our spirit yes,

But to name it and claim it no.

Does God want us to believe He will heal us, or would He rather have us not know His will regarding healing?
I would say he would want us to know the difference between the temporal and the eternal.
You see, its not so much a matter of the quantity of faith as it is having any faith at all.
Yes without the faith of Christ, the faith of God, there can be no eternal healing.(forgiveness of sin)
It is to believe, and I ask this, what did the apostles not believe that Christ wanted them to? On what basis can we seek healing, and believe for it with faith, an expectation? Is it not Christ and Him crucified? No? Then from whence does our faith take its grasp?
Our new eternal faith. Not of our own selves looks to the eternal not the temporal bodies of death.They will die whether a person prays or not.

Not faith from the apostles or the one being healed (not of our own self) but the faith of God that works in the creature to both will and do His good pleasure. If we would accredit the supernatural healings used to preach the gospel to the men we would be blaspheming the holy name by which we are a called heavenward..

Whose faith healed the lame man . Of God or of men?

The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up
their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men..Acts 14:11

Pray that you will never get sick while in these bodies of death.
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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asked this before but it got little response, so I'll answer myself.

Does Isaiah 53:4,5 apply to us in 2018? Most would answer that it does. If so, what is the context? If the context includes physical healing then we can conclude that physical healing belongs to us. According to Matthew 8:16,17 the context is indeed physical healing. Therefore, physical healing belongs to us. It's really no more complicated than that.
As in all things in every parable, which without Christ spoke not, in order to hide the eternal unseen faith principle we must put on what the doctor of our souls prescribes the correct 20/20 lenses to focus on the which will last .

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No man can serve two masters. Christ said of his own flesh it profits for nothing. We therefore offer our bodies in view of his eternal mercy not seen
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
It was answered in posts 142 - 148.

It has NOTHING to do with physical healing. It was thoroughly refuted. Of course. Non of you even looked at or responded to them. Go figure.

which is how it always goes

what you get is smoke and mirrors and possibly a total change of what is being said and as a last resort, when all else fails, you get 'nobody loves me. you are all so mean'