Healing - What is this actually?

[PeterJens]

Accusation Quote :-
Religious people get mad when they see others being blessed and they are the "ones for deserve blessings".


My experience in the christian church as a whole is the belief people are healed
by God is held by most, but so so so so many situations nothing happens when people pray.

In reality God is sovereign, illness comes with His will being worked out.
The faith of some appears to be illness and poverty are a curse, of demons
possibly that need to be cast out.

For me God heals my heart, who I am, how I function, brings love and reality
into my life through Jesus and the cross. That is the healing that matters.

Temporary healing of the body is a sticky plaster on the outward symtoms of
sin in the world.

What many "miracle" workers are really saying without these temporary healings,
God is not present, we need these signs to know we are on the right track.

But this is simply unbelief, and a magic show.

Where it gets worse is when seriously ill people die because of a promise of healing
and faith that has not actually taken place. That is deception.

The next level down is to condemn those who believe in healing within Gods will
and sovereign plan are evil. So when people die at a good age, this was because
of unbelief though we know God does not promise we will not die physically.

So many christian leaders have fallen for the line, your illness is not your end because
your ministry is so important, the Lord is not drawing it to a close, but that is exactly
what He is doing and what happens.

How many times does simple reality have to break in to these "idealised" "everyone is
healed" when that is simply not true, for real faith and love to take hold.

And the accusation people "religious" get mad is again a lie. For most they would love
to see mass healings, but it is so rare, all the modern instances it is claimed, it is shown
to be lies. This makes everyone cynical of these messengers of "faith", who bring the
gospel into serious disrepute. But for them truth no longer matters, only faith in the
face of facts.

 

[PeterJens]

Healing - physical healing

It struck me most who want to claim Jesus heals all the time, are really saying
temporary physical adjustments and corrections to the body are part of walking
with Christ.

Therefore no need for glasses, arthritus aches and pains, colds, flu, back ache,
limps, hearing problems, age related changes etc. We should all stay young,
around the optimum age, and in the end sleep one night and wake up with the
Lord.

The reality is the church suffers from disease and needs to come to terms with
its restrictions. The Lord in His grace heals and holds many things back, but
that is His hand of blessing and will not ours.

A conumdrum is why does someone get cancer in the first place for God to
miraculously remove it. Surely to not get it in the first place is God exercising
grace in ones life.

I do not know the answers to these questions, other than 3 people in my
friendship group have had serious cancer treatment, and are in remission, while
others have died. In each situation we have prayed for them, and it has been
the medicine that has worked.

But what matters most? We find answers to the issues we face, or we hold out
only God provides the answers through prayer and faith, while people around us
die. It is like JW's not accepting blood transfusions, because of an interpretation
of scripture, while ignoring the offer of love and help from doctors that is good,
truthful and a blessing.

 

[tourist]

When healing occurs you feel better.

 

[Grace777x70]

As believers we have a choice either to believe what the scriptures are telling us or believe our own human philosophy based entirely on our own experiences.

There is NO record of Jesus refusing anyone who came to Him for healing - physical healing. This could conflict with our own experience but are we going to believe experiences or the Word of God? Are we going to elevate our experiences above the revealed life of Jesus who showed us the will of the Father?

Yes, we will all die in this body and we look forward to the final redemption of these bodies. Even in the Old Covenant God promised healing and health. ( Deut 28 and Psalm 103. )

Moses, Caleb, Joshua and others that believed in God's word were all strong and healthy until it was their time to leave. Yes, this body will break down because of the sin that is in our flesh. ( Rom. 8:13 ).

Sickness and aging are 2 different things and yes, when we go to be with the Lord - our physical heart does stop beating. We all have a time to die and go to be with the Lord.

Nowhere do we see - if we are honest - Jesus saying any of the below things to the people that came to Him for healing:

1) No, I can't heal you now because you need to learn a lesson and God is trying to teach you something.

2) No, I will not heal you because of how you have treated your body and have not eaten the right foods ( funny thing is that these people were all on the mediterranean diet)

3) No, I can't heal you today because you have unconfessed sin in your life.

Sickness is an enemy and it is not from our Father nor does He create it to "teach" His beloved children things. The Lord can take any situation we are in and reveal His love and grace to us in the midst of it but He is not the author of sickness.

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of our Father. Jesus is the exact representation of the will of the Father.

Hebrews 1:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I could fill up this page with scriptures that show Jesus healed "all" that came to Him. He also passed by those that didn't come to Him too and in some cases He came to them. ( Man at the pool of Bethesda )

I realize this is a very hot subject and people have had many negative experiences in their lives. Personally I would rather die agreeing that Jesus is my healer no matter what the outcome brings.

There are many threads on this already and people can search for healing and see both views from believers. I, myself though, am not going to participate in this thread after this post because they usually serve no good purpose but to cause contention and condemnation to those that are struggling in their present circumstances.

We are to help bear the burdens with those around us that are going through hardship as loving brethren - no matter what we believe. Being contentious and condemning does not fulfill this purpose of loving them where they are at in this life.

If people are genuinely interested - they can search the threads for the "healing " threads and ask the Lord to show them what it is that He would have them to do in their situation.

 

[Willie-T]

I was raised "knowing" healing didn't work. I grew up, and now I "know" it does. It's our choice to get to experience it, or to simply live without it.

 

[PeterJens]

The above posts are from those who support healing always.

They illustrate the concept I believe something, but if experience tells me I am
wrong, I still believe I am right.

The question raised which is simply honest believers walking with the Lord do not
experience things in the way they describe.

The point I have made over the last 30+ years, is healing is special and rare.
In the long term the desire to claim that which clearly does not occur discredits the
claims of following Jesus. If christians are happy to claim a miracle took place when
it clearly did not, and if people die as a result their conscience is not bothered, why
should we believe anything else they claim, as truth is irrelevant to them or life and
death.

I have no problem people asking for healing, and then responding honestly to the result,
it is the blame game about failure which is the most common outcome.

 

[Willie-T]

The above posts are from those who support healing always.

They illustrate the concept I believe something, but if experience tells me I am
wrong, I still believe I am right.

The question raised which is simply honest believers walking with the Lord do not
experience things in the way they describe.

The point I have made over the last 30+ years, is healing is special and rare.
In the long term the desire to claim that which clearly does not occur discredits the
claims of following Jesus. If christians are happy to claim a miracle took place when
it clearly did not, and if people die as a result their conscience is not bothered, why
should we believe anything else they claim, as truth is irrelevant to them or life and
death.

I have no problem people asking for healing, and then responding honestly to the result,
it is the blame game about failure which is the most common outcome.

I see and experience healing all the time. You don't have to if you choose not to. No one is forcing you to.

This, rhetoric about "It can't be true because I don't experience it as a cloud-splitting, genuine fireworks miracle, or that it doesn't happen each and every time we ask", is akin to praying for $10,000, and only finding a bundle of $7,000 lying on the sidewalk....... and only finding that $7,000 every other month, or so.

Well, OF COURSE it makes perfect sense to never even ask for a dime.... EVER! (Or it seems to make sense to you.)

 

[Ariel82]

Ummm...,he was raising the point that what do you tell the people who do NOT get healed? Is it a blame game?

Why weren't the disciples able to heal everybody?

Why did Paul tell Timothy to take wine for His tummy upset?

Just curious.

 

[PeterJens]

I see and experience healing all the time. You don't have to if you choose not to. No one is forcing you to.

This, rhetoric about "It can't be true because I don't experience it as a cloud-splitting, genuine fireworks miracle, or that it doesn't happen each and every time we ask", is akin to praying for $10,000, and only finding a bundle of $7,000 lying on the sidewalk....... and only finding that $7,000 every other month, or so.

Well, OF COURSE it makes perfect sense to never even ask for a dime.... EVER! (Or it seems to make sense to you.)

Willie - there is a large difference between knowing God heals, and praying for someone
in the expectation they will be healed. The problem has always been when people claim
healing will occur no matter what, and fail continually to deliver.

Many young people have come to our church claiming such things, yet it never happens.
Yes the Lord heals, but not on command. I have read so many testimonies of people being
part of penticostal churches and never seen healings, even after special training sessions etc.

The problem is always Gods presence is determined by the spiritual nature of the believers
present, not the miraculous expectation. It is why many have come to cc and assume I am
against healing or signs and miracles are everything and love is part of the deception.

The accusation that was thrown out was people are jealous of the power to heal, not in a
parched spiritual world we desire reality. I have watched too many videos, seen healing
meetings which are nothing but hype and self deception.

We are here to learn to see love overcoming circumstance and situations, not be a victim of it.
The problem is always those diagnosed with terminal illnesses want an answer.

It sounds like the answer that people want to provide is just believe and you will be healed,
but this is not true. If it is Gods will, and he gifts you with faith you will be healed.

 

[mpaper345]

Healing will be less frequent,and ratio wise,than in the past.

Jesus said when He comes back will He find faith,and there will be many hypocrites,that are caught up in material,and money,and say they have need of nothing.

The prayers of a righteous person avails much,and of there is a lot of hypocrites still holding on to the world,its ways,prayers will not get answered.

Faith is lessening too,at least true faith,for Jesus said will He find faith when He comes back,for He knows the condition at that time.

It is the time we live in that the truth is lessening,although the truth will never lessen,but that is in the way people view the Bible that is lessening.

A lot will not be done,and even less,as time goes on,for there will be a falling away,when the world will not accept the truth of the Bible,so converts will be rare.

 

[psalm6819]

It's never God's fault. He gave us Jesus, would He deny healing which is included in atonement?

Sozo means wholeness.

sorry but I'll believe it's a lack of knowledge on our part before I beleive He won't heal.

it's pride to believe He is less than He is because we don't want to take responsibility to stir our faith

 

[bikerchaz]

Are we not supposed to follow Jesus example? I am not saying we have to stay up all night in prayer, but He spent as much time with Father as possible, when Jesus felt the need to explain Himself , did he not always say

"as I see the Father so I do"

or

"what the Father tells me I do"

or

I do nothing of myself but what the father shows me

. (my interpretation)

I was being forward the other week and I asked for healing for someone when I had not been told to do so. I do understand that Jesus could have done the healing, there was nothing to it. But I was left with egg on my face from two ways round, firstly did I not have faith to heal? or did I accuse the other person of not having enough faith to accept healing?

In fact I jumped the gun. I have repented of this and learned a valuable lesson in the process, I need to hear. We all need to hear. I am sure there are those with the gift of healing who share it as they feel led. I have not. But I do hear from the lord and His word has never failed.

This hearing comes from scripture, or directly from the Spirit, vision or dream. I am not talking silly here but seriously, very seriously. God gives us all talents and to overstep the guidance given is possibly as wrong as not stepping up to fulfil Jesus leading.

When I awake in the Kingdom I will be whole, I will run, I couldn't run across the road now LOL, I will be able to walk and not be faint, I would love to walk the hills of England's north west lake district, in fact any hill or dale would be nice, now it is something I look forward to in the Kingdom.

If Jesus wants to heal my body He is very welcome to, He does not have to to have my heart, he has that already. Should I hear the Spirit prompt to heal I will, should the Spirit prompt for something else I am on it already. This relationship we have with Jesus does me just fine, although I do ask for more filling of His Spirit, and in my enthusiasm I am prone to run off and not wait, He is faithful and teaches me patience LOL one of the hardest lessons to learn.

 

[psalm6819]

Willie - there is a large difference between knowing God heals, and praying for someone
in the expectation they will be healed. The problem has always been when people claim
healing will occur no matter what, and fail continually to deliver.

Many young people have come to our church claiming such things, yet it never happens.
Yes the Lord heals, but not on command. I have read so many testimonies of people being
part of penticostal churches and never seen healings, even after special training sessions etc.

The problem is always Gods presence is determined by the spiritual nature of the believers
present, not the miraculous expectation. It is why many have come to cc and assume I am
against healing or signs and miracles are everything and love is part of the deception.

The accusation that was thrown out was people are jealous of the power to heal, not in a
parched spiritual world we desire reality. I have watched too many videos, seen healing
meetings which are nothing but hype and self deception.

We are here to learn to see love overcoming circumstance and situations, not be a victim of it.
The problem is always those diagnosed with terminal illnesses want an answer.

It sounds like the answer that people want to provide is just believe and you will be healed,
but this is not true. If it is Gods will, and he gifts you with faith you will be healed.

that's a bunch of baloney

 

[Willie-T]

Pete, I just cannot follow you because I have never had anything to do with the kinds of things you and several others talk about. At our church, we could never imagine telling anyone not to go straight to their doctors to see if there is, indeed any change. How on earth do you think we know their cancer (or whatever) has suddenly gone into remission or disappeared altogether? Do you think we look at the toenails on their left foot, or something? They wouldn't have known they had whatever illness they had if they had not first gone to a doctor. Of course they should go right back to the same doctor to verify it is gone.

You've got to quit religiously watching so much of the telly.... they've got you believing that nonsense.

 

[AuntieAnt]

My faith is in Christ alone. The Lord is more real than what I see, what I think, what I feel or what anyone tells me. I know the spiritual realm is eternal and that's where the Lord is. That's where my faith is. Not in this temporary world.

Jesus healed everyone who came to him and asked to be healed. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. That is eternal truth.

Though our outward man is perishing and we will all someday have redemption of these bodies, I will never stop believing Jesus heals us when we ask.

The Lord is faithful. That is the greatest truth I know.

 

[Zmouth]

My faith is in Christ alone.

That's sad, I hope you don't really mean that.

 

[Joidevivre]

What we who are Christians don't see are the many things we are healed from and didn't/don't know we have. For all I know, I have had the beginnings of cancer in my body and the Lord has healed it many times. Or he has kept from many diseases.

Every day I wait before Him to minister to me both physically and spiritually. From the time I surrendered my life to him, I allow him to take or give whatever he wants. Yet I know when I am in his presence, He is always ministering to me - both body and soul. I feel his anointing flow through me actually many times. So many times I feel stronger, and when I am sick I tend to heal quickly. I come away from being with him much more at peace. And we all know that stresses bring on many sicknesses.

Too many people want healing yet do nothing to care for their own bodies (which is our own responsibility). So I pray for good health and expect healing - but don't eat junk food - walk every day and keep my weight down. I had to learn that the hard way.

God is still in the healing business. I have seen it over and over as people are prayed for. But his main concern is that a person's life is given to him - totally surrendered. And they can actually say "For I have died, and my life is hidden in Christ". That is the perfect healing.

 

[PeterJens]

Pete, I just cannot follow you because I have never had anything to do with the kinds of things you and several others talk about. At our church, we could never imagine telling anyone not to go straight to their doctors to see if there is, indeed any change. How on earth do you think we know their cancer (or whatever) has suddenly gone into remission or disappeared altogether? Do you think we look at the toenails on their left foot, or something? They wouldn't have known they had whatever illness they had if they had not first gone to a doctor. Of course they should go right back to the same doctor to verify it is gone.

You've got to quit religiously watching so much of the telly.... they've got you believing that nonsense.

The problem with this whole discussion is every sunday people come together.
We face 3 people in their 90's with various stages of dementia. Now one is a christian,
two are not.

Over the past two years we have had very active members of the congregation develop
cancer, one which went into the brain, and the other I am not sure about. They both died.
I my house group, a long term friend developed cancer but did not want prayer directly,
but rather wanted to deal with it through the doctors etc.

So please do not think this is something far away from me or not a reminder constantly.
If I believed I just needed to pray, be healed and they would be, I would do that.

In London there is a mission called mission to London run by a faith healer. He was asked
to prove at his meeting anyone who had been healed, and out of the thousands of people, who
were called because he claimed the Lord would heal, he came up with zero healings.

So with the greatest of respects, though you say scripture says otherwise, scripture does not
promise healing and health and the experience of most christians, is they live with their
disabilities. Now for me personally I live a very healthy life, and am blessed with few issues,
but I am not going to claim this is anything but Gods grace.

And the temptation of avoiding doctors and healing is often around anti-schizophrenic medication
and epilepsy which will not show for some time if it has passed. Many christians live with these
conditions, and in the Lords grace cope.

What for me would be interesting is hearing of a church were all illnesses were washed clean,
and they walked for a year without issues. It would seem for those who claim such a high standard
of healing and blessing, this would not be a big ask?

What I do see is individuals claiming words but not delivering evidence. Over 30+ years this actually
means the claims are wrong.

Our pastor had his mother in a coma for 5 years who was a commited christian, and she never
recovered even though he very much believed in the power of God to reach out and raise people up.

It strikes me constantly we want simple answers to the mysteries of life, like a child wants presents
all the time because the alternative is much harder to work through.

 

[BenFTW]

That is such a naturalistic mindset, that your reality defines your faith. It can if one allows it to, but this isn't wise. If you let your surroundings define your faith your faith will always be in the hands of others instead of reliant upon God.

Reality is created in the spirit, or do you not know how the Lord created the Earth? First in the mind (immaterial), and then in reality (the material world). Think of even the very chair upon which you sit. VVas it first in the immaterial, conceptual, plane or was it first an object? Every single thing of reality first started from the immaterial, all going back to God.

For you to let "reality" define your faith you are working out of a mindset that Christ did not put forth. By faith and not sight. Simple reality does not contradict scripture for it is the spiritual truth that reigns. Though a person is not healed in the natural Jesus did heal that person at the cross through His suffering. If they wish to experience this healing, just as one receives salvation, it is a thing of faith.

Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world, but not all the world is saved because not all the world believes. You see, spiritually such salvation is within their grasp. In the natural they may yet be condemned because they have not believed. Yet the truth is Christ died for them and salvation is there for them. In the same way healing is present. Regardless of ones circumstances the spiritual truth reigns supreme. It is when you believe in the spiritual reality that your material world is affected. VVhat I mean is to stand on God's word, because He is faithful.

 

[BenFTW]

The problem with this whole discussion is every sunday people come together.
We face 3 people in their 90's with various stages of dementia. Now one is a christian,
two are not.

Over the past two years we have had very active members of the congregation develop
cancer, one which went into the brain, and the other I am not sure about. They both died.
I my house group, a long term friend developed cancer but did not want prayer directly,
but rather wanted to deal with it through the doctors etc.

So please do not think this is something far away from me or not a reminder constantly.
If I believed I just needed to pray, be healed and they would be, I would do that.

In London there is a mission called mission to London run by a faith healer. He was asked
to prove at his meeting anyone who had been healed, and out of the thousands of people, who
were called because he claimed the Lord would heal, he came up with zero healings.

So with the greatest of respects, though you say scripture says otherwise, scripture does not
promise healing and health and the experience of most christians, is they live with their
disabilities. Now for me personally I live a very healthy life, and am blessed with few issues,
but I am not going to claim this is anything but Gods grace.

And the temptation of avoiding doctors and healing is often around anti-schizophrenic medication
and epilepsy which will not show for some time if it has passed. Many christians live with these
conditions, and in the Lords grace cope.

What for me would be interesting is hearing of a church were all illnesses were washed clean,
and they walked for a year without issues. It would seem for those who claim such a high standard
of healing and blessing, this would not be a big ask?

What I do see is individuals claiming words but not delivering evidence. Over 30+ years this actually
means the claims are wrong.

Our pastor had his mother in a coma for 5 years who was a commited christian, and she never
recovered even though he very much believed in the power of God to reach out and raise people up.

It strikes me constantly we want simple answers to the mysteries of life, like a child wants presents
all the time because the alternative is much harder to work through.

The part that I put in bold and enlarged, that is telling. As of a matter of fact, if you did believe that you would be healed. That is the irony in your statement. If you actually believed that, and knew the Gospel truth that is through Christ's flesh we have healing and did pray and believe you might just be surprised with the results.

If you would step out and believe you would see results. You say if you believed that in prayer healing occurs you would step out. Then step out! Believe! Then be amazed at what the Lord does through a vessel who steps out in faith and see His word confirmed.