Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...
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Yes, and just to add to what you said...
Jude 1 officially confirms that apostates ARE non believers. From Verses 3-18 it talks of the apostates and then does a final conclusion in V19: "These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" - so it ends with confirming who these apostates are. Then verses 20-25 speak of your life with God and glory to God, etc.
So if anyone is in doubt, Jude 1 says that apostates are not believers!!!
And the scripture I shared before states that they came out from among us, because they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us.
Jude 1 officially confirms that apostates ARE non believers. From Verses 3-18 it talks of the apostates and then does a final conclusion in V19: "These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" - so it ends with confirming who these apostates are. Then verses 20-25 speak of your life with God and glory to God, etc.
So if anyone is in doubt, Jude 1 says that apostates are not believers!!!
And the scripture I shared before states that they came out from among us, because they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us.
^^ correct.
Ezekiel 18
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
Ezekiel 18
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
g7 is fairly unique. He spends days, months, years recruiting for his doctrinal heresies.
His copying and pasting is his compensating and saving time.
He no longer believes in consistency or real revelation through scripture, only his "lens" view
of everything. All other views are now seen as evil, and everything is interpreted only through
this lens. The opposition perspective he regards as "porn", and all opponents are hatefull evil
people. He has stated that religious practise is the worst evil in church history and he is
dedicated to removing it. What is surprising is the size of the group that follow this view within
the charismatic, revelation type fellowships
Thank you or your kind words,
Unfortunately this type of behavior does occur on CC.
What happens in some minds is this :
They come to these "conclusions" about people and what they are saying from their own construct in their mind.
They then take something someone says - and "construct" what they think the other person is saying and then make a whole new meaning out of it. Then, this thought seizes their mind until "it becomes real" to them in their own thinking.
They then attack this "made up thought" as if it is real.
They then feel it is ok to call these other believers every name that is possible from being satanic, to liars, to lovers of sin, hypocrites, delusional, insult their intelligence, make deceitful slanderous remarks.
This is the reason I try to limit my interaction with them and don't engage them because nothing but strife and division comes from it.
Believe me - it makes it a lot more peaceable here in CC,
Oh, I know they are still in their malice and slandering by saying things but - that's ok. Just bless them and leave them in the hands of the Lord.
I just ignore this type of behavior and don't interact with them in accordance to Romans 16:17
All is well. We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.
His copying and pasting is his compensating and saving time.
He no longer believes in consistency or real revelation through scripture, only his "lens" view
of everything. All other views are now seen as evil, and everything is interpreted only through
this lens. The opposition perspective he regards as "porn", and all opponents are hatefull evil
people. He has stated that religious practise is the worst evil in church history and he is
dedicated to removing it. What is surprising is the size of the group that follow this view within
the charismatic, revelation type fellowships
Thank you or your kind words,
Unfortunately this type of behavior does occur on CC.
What happens in some minds is this :
They come to these "conclusions" about people and what they are saying from their own construct in their mind.
They then take something someone says - and "construct" what they think the other person is saying and then make a whole new meaning out of it. Then, this thought seizes their mind until "it becomes real" to them in their own thinking.
They then attack this "made up thought" as if it is real.
They then feel it is ok to call these other believers every name that is possible from being satanic, to liars, to lovers of sin, hypocrites, delusional, insult their intelligence, make deceitful slanderous remarks.
This is the reason I try to limit my interaction with them and don't engage them because nothing but strife and division comes from it.
Believe me - it makes it a lot more peaceable here in CC,
Oh, I know they are still in their malice and slandering by saying things but - that's ok. Just bless them and leave them in the hands of the Lord.
I just ignore this type of behavior and don't interact with them in accordance to Romans 16:17
All is well. We have a good, good Father and a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yeah - they are twice dead.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
We have defined "apostasy" from our own understanding of that term. It simply means in the Greek "to depart" or "to separate from."
So, we have heard sermons from our church upbringing where "apostasy" was used and put in some scriptures here and there and we come up with a doctrine. Now the "meaning" of apostasy has taken on a whole life within itself.
It is used 16 times in scripture and all the meanings are the same "To separate or to depart" "stand separate from" - "withdraw from".
Here is an example of it being used.
1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
The truth is all of us in some form are standing apart from some things that Christ has done for us. We can know that we have the peace of Christ but we withdraw or depart from believing in that because our mind cannot get around the natural circumstances.
The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context".
They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).
Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things.
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into. There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us.
Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ and then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth.
So, we have heard sermons from our church upbringing where "apostasy" was used and put in some scriptures here and there and we come up with a doctrine. Now the "meaning" of apostasy has taken on a whole life within itself.
It is used 16 times in scripture and all the meanings are the same "To separate or to depart" "stand separate from" - "withdraw from".
Here is an example of it being used.
1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
The truth is all of us in some form are standing apart from some things that Christ has done for us. We can know that we have the peace of Christ but we withdraw or depart from believing in that because our mind cannot get around the natural circumstances.
The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context".
They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).
Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things.
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into. There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us.
Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ and then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth.
I am sure there are lots of things posted by atheists, jws, sda, Mormons, guys who are
lost which are edifying, it does not make the tree they preach from sound.
I oppose simple positions that are heretical and wrong.
The poison is to suggest such things do not exist, and all is about being nice.
The cornerstone of the rotten tree is the approach to the sermon on the mount
and forgiveness. Here they show their hand and their heresy. Jesus is not
the Lord they respect, rather a small part of Paul, and you are all loved, sin
does not matter, only belief or rejection of Christ.
In essence it is a faith within a faith.
It's traits are redefining everything but it in the end just takes away the power
of love and slanders ordinary Christians.
I invite people to discover for themselves, because they may find the Lord
deeper and in reality as a result.
lost which are edifying, it does not make the tree they preach from sound.
I oppose simple positions that are heretical and wrong.
The poison is to suggest such things do not exist, and all is about being nice.
The cornerstone of the rotten tree is the approach to the sermon on the mount
and forgiveness. Here they show their hand and their heresy. Jesus is not
the Lord they respect, rather a small part of Paul, and you are all loved, sin
does not matter, only belief or rejection of Christ.
In essence it is a faith within a faith.
It's traits are redefining everything but it in the end just takes away the power
of love and slanders ordinary Christians.
I invite people to discover for themselves, because they may find the Lord
deeper and in reality as a result.
It reminds me of this passage in scripture:
2 Timothy
[SUP]5 [/SUP]having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! [SUP]6 [/SUP]For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, [SUP]7 [/SUP]always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; [SUP]9 [/SUP]but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
Romans 1
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
2 Timothy
[SUP]5 [/SUP]having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! [SUP]6 [/SUP]For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, [SUP]7 [/SUP]always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; [SUP]9 [/SUP]but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
Romans 1
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Same here. I usually takes notes on my phone throughout the day. Sometimes on the toilet lol. Did I just admit to that 
But from my phone to my laptop I usually sit on things for a bit and tweak as I feel I'm meant to by the HS. Often extra things come up to include.
But from my phone to my laptop I usually sit on things for a bit and tweak as I feel I'm meant to by the HS. Often extra things come up to include.
People will post a scripture out of context or just post a scripture without looking at it through what Christ has done on the cross and resurrection and there are always new people viewing the threads so we just give out the scripture "in context" and then leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ and His majestic work for us on the cross and resurrection. We have a great salvation - in Him.
I agree.
Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.
Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".
They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.
This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives and operating in us like it is meant to.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ( notice that is "their" works )
This below in 1 Peter 1:13 is what satan is really after...this is why he has false prophets/teachers in our midst.
He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance and human will-power instead of what Christ has done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]1 Timothy 1 NLT
19 [/SUP]Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.
1 Timothy 1 AMP
[SUP]19 [/SUP]keeping your faith [leaning completely on God with absolute trust and confidence in His guidance] and having a good conscience; for some [people] have rejected [their moral compass] and have made a shipwreck of their faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have [SUP][d][/SUP]handed over to Satan, so that they will be disciplined and taught not to blaspheme.
19 [/SUP]Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Hymenaeus and Alexander are two examples. I threw them out and handed them over to Satan so they might learn not to blaspheme God.
1 Timothy 1 AMP
[SUP]19 [/SUP]keeping your faith [leaning completely on God with absolute trust and confidence in His guidance] and having a good conscience; for some [people] have rejected [their moral compass] and have made a shipwreck of their faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have [SUP][d][/SUP]handed over to Satan, so that they will be disciplined and taught not to blaspheme.
Walking with Jesus is simple.
Confess your sin, trust in the cross and know His life flowing through you.
g7 summary I am not apostate, those who say you have to do anything are apostate.
Christ + life change = apostacy
Christ = heaven
Christ + unbelief = hell
sin not an issue
Problem with this theology is if someone comes to faith but later lives in unbelief
they are still saved. And how they behave has no impact on God or salvation.
This should kill this heresy dead in the water, but they compartmentalise their
belief system.
The gospel
Christ + life change = salvation
The heart change is the empowerment to fulfil the law of Christ.
A good way of describing this is saying when is a high jumper a high jumper?
When they jump high jumps. Before that they are just anybody.
The core moral problem with g7's heresy is its desire to classify sin as anything
related to oneself, or the self. It creates massive condemnation and sense of
inevitable failure.
But Jesus becomes one with us, and changes how we literally view everything.
Love becomes the outflow of who we are, not something you need to condemn
yourself or self analyse. Seeing need and meeting it is who a child of God is.
You only discover this when you find Christ and empty yourself of all your cherished
parts and submit to the King, and ask for His help. It never is a once off affair,
but without this realisation, everything else becomes a fuzzy world of failure and
confusion.
Read the sermon on the mount. Is it life or death to your heart?
If it is death you are still trying to prove something to God, if it is life, you have
the Holy Spirit flowing in you. Welcome and amen, brother and sister.
Confess your sin, trust in the cross and know His life flowing through you.
g7 summary I am not apostate, those who say you have to do anything are apostate.
Christ + life change = apostacy
Christ = heaven
Christ + unbelief = hell
sin not an issue
Problem with this theology is if someone comes to faith but later lives in unbelief
they are still saved. And how they behave has no impact on God or salvation.
This should kill this heresy dead in the water, but they compartmentalise their
belief system.
The gospel
Christ + life change = salvation
The heart change is the empowerment to fulfil the law of Christ.
A good way of describing this is saying when is a high jumper a high jumper?
When they jump high jumps. Before that they are just anybody.
The core moral problem with g7's heresy is its desire to classify sin as anything
related to oneself, or the self. It creates massive condemnation and sense of
inevitable failure.
But Jesus becomes one with us, and changes how we literally view everything.
Love becomes the outflow of who we are, not something you need to condemn
yourself or self analyse. Seeing need and meeting it is who a child of God is.
You only discover this when you find Christ and empty yourself of all your cherished
parts and submit to the King, and ask for His help. It never is a once off affair,
but without this realisation, everything else becomes a fuzzy world of failure and
confusion.
Read the sermon on the mount. Is it life or death to your heart?
If it is death you are still trying to prove something to God, if it is life, you have
the Holy Spirit flowing in you. Welcome and amen, brother and sister.
Amen...try to live the Christian life by your own human will-power and you will have your faith ship-wrecked. Trying to be your own savior will ship-wreck your faith.
You can go to church your whole life, pray 5 hours a day, read the bible every year from cover to cover. pastor a church for 30 years and still have a ship-wrecked faith during that whole time.
There is actually a great article about this verse in 1 Tim 1. I'll go get it. It'll bless us and help us to see the beauty that is in Christ and to watch out for those things that ship-wreck us while in this life.
Of course to those that believe they have to keep themselves saved and we lose our salvation - having ship-wrecked means to go to hell even if you have Christ in you and the Holy Spirit in you forever like Jesus said. John 14:16
You can go to church your whole life, pray 5 hours a day, read the bible every year from cover to cover. pastor a church for 30 years and still have a ship-wrecked faith during that whole time.
There is actually a great article about this verse in 1 Tim 1. I'll go get it. It'll bless us and help us to see the beauty that is in Christ and to watch out for those things that ship-wreck us while in this life.
Of course to those that believe they have to keep themselves saved and we lose our salvation - having ship-wrecked means to go to hell even if you have Christ in you and the Holy Spirit in you forever like Jesus said. John 14:16
Let me put g7 hatred and accusation into real context.
Satan and his horde are "ministers of righteousness".
So walking by the Spirit righteously is the gospel of satan.
It is what he believes and has expressed for many months, but I just want to underline
who you are following and agreeing with and what he is connecting together.
Not sin and judgement, but righteousness and evil. There is no more anti-christian sentiment
than this. Even Jesus when faced with the pharisees criticised their sin and hypocracy not
their righteousness. Only the enemy does this.
Satan and his horde are "ministers of righteousness".
So walking by the Spirit righteously is the gospel of satan.
It is what he believes and has expressed for many months, but I just want to underline
who you are following and agreeing with and what he is connecting together.
Not sin and judgement, but righteousness and evil. There is no more anti-christian sentiment
than this. Even Jesus when faced with the pharisees criticised their sin and hypocracy not
their righteousness. Only the enemy does this.
Found it! I like to use this site from time to time as it looks at scripture through the finished work of Christ on a variety of subjects. I also like where people have asked questions at the bottom of the article and I often find I learn from that are as well.
Shipwrecked Faith
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences? Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought – as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme.
I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.) This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable. That way lies disaster and shipwreck.
The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Unquote:
Here is the link for those interested in reading the questions at the bottom.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/30/shipwrecked-faith/
Shipwrecked Faith
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences? Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought – as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme.
I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.) This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable. That way lies disaster and shipwreck.
The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Unquote:
Here is the link for those interested in reading the questions at the bottom.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/30/shipwrecked-faith/