Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Grace777x70]

believe that "sin" - the noun - not having dominion over us ( Rom. 6:14 ) is referring to the sin that is in the flesh not having dominion because we are in the spirit in Christ and not in the flesh.

I look at "sinning" ( the action ) as a response to the deceitfulness of sin - the noun ( that which is still in our flesh ) if we yield to the lie that the sin in our flesh is saying to us. Kind of like cause and effect - that is if we believe the lie of sin that speaks to us.

I too believe that the more we get a revelation that we are not in the flesh but really in the spirit because the real us is in Christ - the new creation - then "the influence" of sin loses it's power because of walking by the Spirit which is all based on the grace of Christ alone.

It's the influence of sin in our flesh that deceives us into doing the action of sinning. That is what I see in "sin shall not have dominion over us".

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Galatians 5:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

The flesh ( which are the ways and old habits of getting things from the world instead of through faith in Christ ) and the law/principle of sin ( Romans 7:23 ) work together in cohoots.

They know what works on us individually. For example: If in the past we are trying in our own fleshly ways to get love by having sex with others. Then the power of sin will inflame that desire in us to be with other people.

If we have a problem with pride - then the power of sin will use that to influence us to think that we are the beginning and end of all things... If we think lowly of ourselves then the power of sin will use that to say we are worthless.

Each of us have our own unique fleshly ways of trying to find life from the world's belief system instead of through Christ's life that is in us. This brings death but walking by the spirit brings life and peace through the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work alone.

 

[samuel23]

Conditional security is easy to understand. Example, you have conditional security while watching the bears at the zoo, you are totally secure as long as you do not get in the cage with the bears. You are secure on the train as long as you don't try to jump out while the train is moving. Lets go on, Adam and Eve were secure as long as they did not eat the forbidden fruit. The people of Israel were secure as long as they believed God. Actually the whole story of God and man is God saying you are secure IF you do this or do not do that...all security in this life is conditional. If salvation was unconditional, then the whole world would have been saved immediately after Jesus death on the cross.

 

[PeterJens]

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
2 Cor 12:9-10

I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.
2 Cor 12:21

 

[Grace777x70]

Paul also describes what some of this "impurity, immorality, and sensuality" actually looks like.

2 Corinthians 12:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For I am afraid that perhaps when I come I may find you to be not what I wish and may be found by you to be not what you wish; that perhaps there will be strife, jealousy, angry tempers, disputes, slanders, gossip, arrogance, disturbances;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

 

[PeterJens]

Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
1 John 4:7

[video=youtube;QvLxZEU02uI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvLxZEU02uI[/video]

 

[JohnTalmid]

you mean like how folks don't want to talk about what James said- he who knows to do good and not do so, it is sin.

this levels the playing field, so no one , not you, not me, can say ( truthfully ) say that we meet this standard every hour of every day.

of course , this is a fact, not a feeling or emotion, so I doubt you will have much interest in it........

I meet the standards every moment of every day because of Messiah. Or have you already forgotten? Those without faith are like a man who looks in a mirror turns away and imediatly forgets what he saw.
Don't you see your double standard? You say your a sinner and all are you are right​ but to live the faith of Messiah we must work out our salvation it is our reasonable sacrifice.

 

[JohnTalmid]

There is also only one that is Good and that is the Father in Heaven. His work is to lead us into all truth. What is truth? Your Word YHWH is truth. Emet aka truth is tree letters in Hebrew. The first letter, middle letter, and last letter of Torah or Instruction of YHWH. So if God is working in you you are applying the whole word to your heart.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Well I'm thinking about what I said it might be love not truth. Have to look at it again.

 

[fredoheaven]

No need to complicate matters.

A ship (ark) of faith keeps you above the water. It keeps you from drowning. It allows to to reach your destination.

A shipwreck - the boat sinks. the passengers drown. You don't reach your destination.

Their FAITH was shipwrecked. Without Faith it is impossible to please God. Without Faith, it is impossible to be saved.

Simple really.

Here, I believe is biblical analogy.

The ship, typifies Christ and as long as you are in the ship, you are safe. It keeps you from drowning. The coming into the ship/Ark of Safety typifies faith we have in Christ keep us saved as in the moment we enter the ship(ark) of safety. God has sealed the Ark of safety and it is only God who can open the ARK of safety until we reach our destination. Is there anyone else who can open the seal? None but thee Lord, none but thee. Who are those being kept? They, who are inside the Ark of the safety.

Well, Paul has experienced this shipwrecked but still reached his destination.

The ship/Ark of Safety is always above the perilous water. Those who are already “in” the Ark cannot go “out” so it is impossible to be in and out of salvation.

 

[Chris1975]

Here, I believe is biblical analogy.

The ship, typifies Christ and as long as you are in the ship, you are safe. It keeps you from drowning. The coming into the ship/Ark of Safety typifies faith we have in Christ keep us saved as in the moment we enter the ship(ark) of safety. God has sealed the Ark of safety and it is only God who can open the ARK of safety until we reach our destination. Is there anyone else who can open the seal? None but thee Lord, none but thee. Who are those being kept? They, who are inside the Ark of the safety.

Well, Paul has experienced this shipwrecked but still reached his destination.

The ship/Ark of Safety is always above the perilous water. Those who are already “in” the Ark cannot go “out” so it is impossible to be in and out of salvation.

Let's look at the scripture passage again:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, [SUP]19 [/SUP]holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.


Hymenaeus and Alexander are not two random unbelievers in the city. They were in the body of Christ in the city. They were in the church.

We have Paul telling Timothy to hold onto the faith.
- means Timothy is already in the faith
- holding on is necessary
- if holding on is necessary, then letting go is a possibility

Paul then shows the outcome for some who have let go of the faith (which includes the two named people above)
- they were in the faith
- they then rejected this faith
- their faith suffered shipwreck.

Coming back to the analogy. These people were on the ship (for if they were not they could not have suffered shipwreck). And the only way to be on the ship is by faith. Therefore to suffer shipwreck means to reject their faith (and Paul mentions this clearly in the scripture passage above).

 

[Katy-follower]

Apostates must have been believers or they could not apostate

If that is the case then it would be a contradiction with Jude, which states that these apostates were marked out for condemnation, and concludes that they do not have the Spirit. Someone without the Spirit is not saved. And believers are no longer condemned. I also look to the scriptures that speak of the falling away, which says they were not of us.

1 John 2:18-23: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also"


One final end time Antichrist with capital A, but many antichrists, those denying Christ. The "they" referenced is referring to the antichrists that deny Christ, therefore those who fall away are not saved. No believer is an antichrist. Believers know truth, as stated above, and no lie is of the truth.

 

[fredoheaven]

Let's look at the scripture passage again:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, [SUP]19 [/SUP]holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.


Hymenaeus and Alexander are not two random unbelievers in the city. They were in the body of Christ in the city. They were in the church.

We have Paul telling Timothy to hold onto the faith.
- means Timothy is already in the faith
- holding on is necessary
- if holding on is necessary, then letting go is a possibility

Paul then shows the outcome for some who have let go of the faith (which includes the two named people above)
- they were in the faith
- they then rejected this faith
- their faith suffered shipwreck.

Coming back to the analogy. These people were on the ship (for if they were not they could not have suffered shipwreck). And the only way to be on the ship is by faith. Therefore to suffer shipwreck means to reject their faith (and Paul mentions this clearly in the scripture passage above).

Umm...interesting but then again this is not a "losing salvation" but rather "neglecting salvation."

Thanks

 

[Chris1975]

If that is the case then it would be a contradiction with Jude, which states that these apostates were marked out for condemnation, and concludes that they do not have the Spirit. Someone without the Spirit is not saved. And believers are no longer condemned. I also look to the scriptures that speak of the falling away, which says they were not of us.

1 John 2:18-23: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also"


One final end time Antichrist with capital A, but many antichrists, those denying Christ. The "they" referenced is referring to the antichrists that deny Christ, therefore those who fall away are not saved. No believer is an antichrist. Believers know truth, as stated above, and no lie is of the truth.

Let's first look at the Jude scriptures:

Jude
[h=3]Contend for the Faith[/h][SUP]3 [/SUP]Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

[h=3]Old and New Apostates[/h][SUP]5 [/SUP]But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

from the above verses:
long ago were marked out for this condemnation - this talks to Election. Long before these people were ever born, or ever done anything whether good or bad in the body, before they even had a thought in their heads, or even the first heartbeat, they were market out for this condemnation.
- There is evidence for this found in the word (regarding Judas) John 17v12 [SUP]12 [/SUP]While I was with them in the world,[SUP][c][/SUP] I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept;[SUP][d][/SUP] and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. What we can gather from the above is that the Father gave Jesus the 12. And Jesus kept the 11, and one (Judas) is lost - according to the scriptures which were written from old, and according to Election.
- Read the whole of Romans Ch 9 for a better understanding of Election.
- Salvation and Election are two separate topics. Those who are currently saved need to contend for the faith (continue to believe), and when they overcome, their salvation is complete. When their salvation is complete, this is when Election and Salvation meet. For we do not know who in the body of Christ are the Elect. Only God knows.
- Timothy is saved. Is Timothy Elect? If God Elected Timothy, then Timothy will overcome and his salvation will be made complete. Were Hymenaeus and Alexander the Elect? At the point of Paul writing, they had made a shipwreck of their faith. So even if at some point they believed in Jesus and were positionally saved, they shrunk back. Hebrews 10v38 [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." Therefore these two are not the Elect. Should Timothy himself shrink back, then it proves that even he, although for a time having believed, is not part of the Elect.

having saved - afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
- at this point we have an interesting progression of this letter. Up to now Jude was writing to the church imploring them to (1) contend for the faith, (2) because of false prophets, (3) teaching ungodliness was 'ok', or benevolent, or that grace allowed a more licentious behaviour. --- and now the conclusion (4) having been saved, now he destroys those who don't believe. (5) applies this principle to both men and angels (same principle).

Believing includes Obedience.

 

[Grace777x70]

And the New Covenant obedience is to "believe in Christ and all that He has done.". This is the New Covenant command which is called "Obedient to the faith".

Being "obedient to the faith" is believing in Christ and His work for us for life and living.

Notice here that even the law-keeping good moral living priests need to be "obedient to the faith". The keeping of the law of Moses is NOT the same as being "obedient to the faith".

Acts 6:7 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.


Pagans/Gentiles also need to be "obedient to the faith" and believe in Christ and what He has done for life and living.

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,


All people of all types are called to be "obedient to the faith" - which is belief in Christ alone for life and living.

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

 

[Grace777x70]

There is a fruit of obedience that comes from having believed the "accurate" word of Christ and what He has done. The fruit of obedience does not make one saved as in being joined as one spirit with the Lord.

Get this backwards and trying to "dictate" fruit will create a works-based religion of self-effort and of course it makes others condemn those that don't have "their fruit" like they do. It's the way of the religious belief system.

Obedience in the New Covenant:

After we are obedient to the faith and believe in Crist and rely on His finished work only for life and living - then there is a fruit of His life being manifested in and through us.In loving God and others as Jesus says is the greatest commandment in the law in relation to obedience. We are not under the Law of Moses but we do have now the law of liberty, the law of love, the law of faith, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of Christ Himself in us.

Obedience to me is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man. It is not the root. It's the love of God and the life of Christ manifesting Himself in and through us to a hurt and dying world and to our fellow brethren.

It is not necessarily something "we do to be" but stems from something we "already are now" in Him and so we "do love" as we grow in our awareness of His love for us.

We obey our Lord and Father because we know Him and trust in His character and obedience is not a set of rules that we follow, but a natural flow of the life of God in us built on a love-trust relationship. When you know the love of God for us we will obey Him naturally and effortlessly.

When our minds are renewed to the truth that is in Christ - we obey from our hearts effortlessly. It's a fruit of being in Christ.

I maintain that obedience is a fruit of the life of Christ in our inner man that is created in Christ. When we teach the grace of God this enables us to bear His fruit in and through us to reflect the true kingdom of the love and grace of God to a hurt and dying world.

Teach and preach who believers are in Christ because we are in union in one spirit with the Lord Jesus and they will "awake to righteousness" that is in them because they are a new creation in Him and sin not and walk in the good works that God has prepared for them.

In this Christ will bear His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

 

[Katy-follower]

Chris - you cannot just cut and paste random bits and not acknowledge the rest of the chapter. This is how you get the wrong context. The warnings are to contend for the faith and be aware of those who have crept in, people who are said to not have the Spirit (v19) - these people are not saved...


Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ: Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you (this is addressing believers)

Beloved (believers), while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith (warning) which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ
(these are non believers/tares. Distinction is made between believers and non believers here)


But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (an example given of those in Sodom and Gomorrah who also did not believe - vengeance was on those people, not on believers)

Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit (sounds like prosperity gospel), and perished in the rebellion of Korah
(remember Cain was called a child of satan, he was not a believer either - 1 John 3:12, John 8:44)


These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
(the tares will sit with the wheat, as described in the earlier part of the chapter - they deny the Lord - they have crept in unnoticed) (they are trees without fruit - a dead tree even that is pulled up by the roots so it is twice dead - wow to these descriptions of them!)

These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved (believers), remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

But you, beloved (believers), building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.


Now to Him (Jesus) who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Jude 1 officially confirms that apostates ARE non believers. From Verses 3-18 it talks of the apostates and then does a final conclusion in V19: "These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit" - so it ends with confirming who these apostates are. Then verses 20-25 speak of your life with God and glory to God, etc.

So if anyone is in doubt, Jude 1 says that apostates are not believers!!!

And the scripture I shared before states that they came out from among us, because they were not of us, otherwise they would've stayed with us.

Bumping my previous posts. I need to sleep now, so will look over the other points later.

 

[PeterJens]

If that is the case then it would be a contradiction with Jude, which states that these apostates were marked out for condemnation, and concludes that they do not have the Spirit. Someone without the Spirit is not saved. And believers are no longer condemned. I also look to the scriptures that speak of the falling away, which says they were not of us.

1 John 2:18-23: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also"


One final end time Antichrist with capital A, but many antichrists, those denying Christ. The "they" referenced is referring to the antichrists that deny Christ, therefore those who fall away are not saved. No believer is an antichrist. Believers know truth, as stated above, and no lie is of the truth.

Jude is addressing a group of people who use theology to justify sexual immorality.

To leave the faith is going to happen. To walk with Jesus is to be changed, transformed
into the likeness of Christ in thought, word and deed.

This is a choice of the will and heart, a becoming. Because this is the very nature of our
walk, the opposite is also possible, to refuse to change, or bend or pay a price.
Everything can be set before you, but some will walk away

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 10v38 [SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hebrews 10:37-39 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.

[SUP]38 [/SUP] BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.

[SUP]39 [/SUP] But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing includes Obedience.

Are you saying that we are saved through believing + obedience/works?