Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[garee]

Two concepts are very important

Redemption - We are redeemed, brought into fellowship, communion with God
Sanctification - We are sanctified through our walk with Christ to become in the
image of the Christ.

You described walking after the flesh, stumbling over the cross.The sign of "mercy". It the same thing the apostate Jews performed turning things upside down . We walk by the faith of Christ not that of our own selves

We do not sanctify our own selves or keep it. Either Christ has done all the work of salvation or he has performed none of it. He is not served by huan hands as if he needed anything from the clay he is foring Christ in

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:Again, We are sanctified set apart by God through the hearing of His faith and preserved by the same hearing of faith.

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now "made perfect" by the flesh?.Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:5

What is your are we saved, set aside (santified) by the hearing of faith as it works in us to both will and do His good pleasure and kept by the same hearing of faith or by a work you could perform?

Paul is very clear. The disciples he was writing to where Gods Holy people but
they needed to mature and grow in Christ and love.

That’s true Christins grow in the Lord and if Christ begun the good work of maturing in us he will finish it to the end.

Remember Christ alone causes the growth if there is any,

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 1Co 3:6


Big difference between working out what we have been freely given and working to gain something we never could gain according towalking after the flesh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You mean like "eternal" and "sealed unto the day of redemption"

Ephesians 1:3-14: "....In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"


Kings of old would attach their seal to a document or possession, in order to give it authenticity, ownership or authority.

One of many examples in the bible, to show how a seal is regarded....

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

Amen sis, We can add John 6.

Whoever believes in him will

NEVER hunger
NEVER thirst
Live FOREVER
NEVER die
has ETERNAL life
And WILL be RISEN on the LAST day.

Yeah the bible is clear.. Even jesus told us what we can have right here and right now..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's like some are rejecting the omniscience of God.

God knows the beginning from the end, so what would be the purpose of saving someone and then taking it back... and then saving them again...

It is laughable, but at the same time, really sad that people do not understand the character of God, And in preaching and praising God, they actually teach against and attack God. And the sad part is they do not even realise it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gosh, hope I got the right one... the 3 Omni's, easily confusing and difficult to remember

You did

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lying and miss-representing. you should stop doing both before lecturing others about it. you know, take the plank out of your eye.......

it is absolutely laughable that someone who lies, slanders, calls others names, etc..... actually lectures others about not sinning. absolutely laughable.

And he forgot the most important one.

Justification. "declared innocent of all wrong doing"

Which is his problem. he is trying to make justification dependent on sanctification. And not realising that Justification is free. (well it is not free. Christ paid for it with his life)

 

[PeterJens]

Two concepts are very important
Redemption - We are redeemed, brought into fellowship, communion with God
Sanctification - We are sanctified through our walk with Christ to become in the
image of the Christ.

Paul is very clear. The disciples he was writing to where Gods Holy people but
they needed to mature and grow in Christ and love.

This means sowing to the Spirit rather than the flesh or the passions of this world.

The churches in the book of revelation are mainly about you know who I am,
you know what you need to do, if you are victorious you can claim the crown.

Without redemption you cannot be sanctified. Without sanctification you cannot
attain to the image of Christ. Being 100% like Christ, we will never know if we
have arrived, equally we cannot say I am in heaven, only I follow Christ, have love
flowing through my life, and live in Praise and worship to the King.

We are His people but cannot presume anything because we are sinners saved by
grace, and arrogance is a sin.

Love never is interested in its own position but in service of others.
So those who want to say they have arrived already have failed to understand the
foundation upon which they stand, and most probably have not arrived anywhere.

I have met some of the most spiritually arrogant people imaginable, because they say
they have gone to the 3rd heaven, spoken with angels, and prophets, and know it all.
Yet their lives are full of sin, confess past possessions by demons while being believers,
and do not preach about sin, repentance and righteousness, but spiritualism and seeking
contact with angels and the dead.

Jesus's way is so far from this place, it is little wonder many testify they cannot tell
whether demons or the Lord is moving amongst them. Insane.

Jesus is the sermon on the mount, which can take a lifetime to fully appreciate and work
through. There are many other passages that speak on the same themes but this is
the core.

Sin is so bad, if you are addicted to behavioural sin, it is better to mutilate your body than
be thrown into hell. Listening to many today, they do not want to even talk about sin, its
evil or Gods judgement of it, rather just say everything is ok, no problems, when this is just
lying and miss-representing the Lord of Hosts.

lying and miss-representing. you should stop doing both before lecturing others about it. you know, take the plank out of your eye.......

it is absolutely laughable that someone who lies, slanders, calls others names, etc..... actually lectures others about not sinning. absolutely laughable.

I do not recognise who you are talking about.
Are the points I am making true?
Are the points scriptural and from the Lord?

If you can tell me my lies, my slanders and my miss representation I am happy to talk
it through with you. God bless you

matt 7:6 comes to mind in this situation

Did you not say 60% of the gospel I share is wrong?
I respect you right to hold you own opinions, but I do not understand why you do.
So it is not surprising you appear so irrate at simple biblical reality.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you can tell me my lies, my slanders and my miss representation I am happy to talk
it through with you.

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Two concepts are very important
Redemption - We are redeemed, brought into fellowship, communion with God
Sanctification - We are sanctified through our walk with Christ to become in the
image of the Christ.

Paul is very clear. The disciples he was writing to where Gods Holy people but
they needed to mature and grow in Christ and love.

This means sowing to the Spirit rather than the flesh or the passions of this world.

The churches in the book of revelation are mainly about you know who I am,
you know what you need to do, if you are victorious you can claim the crown.

Without redemption you cannot be sanctified. Without sanctification you cannot
attain to the image of Christ. Being 100% like Christ, we will never know if we
have arrived, equally we cannot say I am in heaven, only I follow Christ, have love
flowing through my life, and live in Praise and worship to the King.

We are His people but cannot presume anything because we are sinners saved by
grace, and arrogance is a sin.

Love never is interested in its own position but in service of others.
So those who want to say they have arrived already have failed to understand the
foundation upon which they stand, and most probably have not arrived anywhere.

I have met some of the most spiritually arrogant people imaginable, because they say
they have gone to the 3rd heaven, spoken with angels, and prophets, and know it all.
Yet their lives are full of sin, confess past possessions by demons while being believers,
and do not preach about sin, repentance and righteousness, but spiritualism and seeking
contact with angels and the dead.

Jesus's way is so far from this place, it is little wonder many testify they cannot tell
whether demons or the Lord is moving amongst them. Insane.

Jesus is the sermon on the mount, which can take a lifetime to fully appreciate and work
through. There are many other passages that speak on the same themes but this is
the core.

Sin is so bad, if you are addicted to behavioural sin, it is better to mutilate your body than
be thrown into hell. Listening to many today, they do not want to even talk about sin, its evil or Gods judgement of it, rather just say everything is ok, no problems, when this is just lying and miss-representing the Lord of Hosts.

There are two points of misunderstanding and or slander you always rail at. But never want to discuss.

You say you wish to discuss. Lets see if you are honest this time, or if you are just blowing smoke again.

ps. You saying that is your view is not discussion. Reality is discussion, not what you or anyone else THINK is true. so if that is what you wish to say, just ignore my post. Because it just proves same old song and dance.

 

[PeterJens]

There are two points of misunderstanding and or slander you always rail at. But never want to discuss.
You say you wish to discuss. Lets see if you are honest this time, or if you are just blowing smoke again.

Glory to God for Christ His Son coming in the flesh
to bring us into His righteous walk, Amen

They repay me evil for good, and hatred for my friendship.
Psalm 109:5

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.
1 John 2:3

Love

 

[PeterJens]

1 Arriving in Christ - a righteous walk, walking in the Spirit
2 Sin - it leads to destruction in our lives and God rightly judges it

The question that is actually denied is being truly cleansed and purified.
To even admit this is against some peoples belief.

Sin - actually sinful acts that contradict the law of Christ is not talked about.
Adultery, covetousness, impurity,

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Eph 5:3

To talk about these things is something people avoid. I wonder why?

What I find odd is the accusation I avoid these subjects when I start threads
etc to actually discuss them.

 

[gb9]

1 Arriving in Christ - a righteous walk, walking in the Spirit
2 Sin - it leads to destruction in our lives and God rightly judges it

The question that is actually denied is being truly cleansed and purified.
To even admit this is against some peoples belief.

Sin - actually sinful acts that contradict the law of Christ is not talked about.
Adultery, covetousness, impurity,

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people.
Eph 5:3

To talk about these things is something people avoid. I wonder why?

What I find odd is the accusation I avoid these subjects when I start threads
etc to actually discuss them.

you mean like how folks don't want to talk about what James said- he who knows to do good and not do so, it is sin.

this levels the playing field, so no one , not you, not me, can say ( truthfully ) say that we meet this standard every hour of every day.

of course , this is a fact, not a feeling or emotion, so I doubt you will have much interest in it........

 

[PeterJens]

you mean like how folks don't want to talk about what James said- he who knows to do good and not do so, it is sin.

this levels the playing field, so no one , not you, not me, can say ( truthfully ) say that we meet this standard every hour of every day.

of course , this is a fact, not a feeling or emotion, so I doubt you will have much interest in it........

gb9 - so you think James saying not doing good when you know you should means
you are a continually lost sinner?

If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.
James 4:17

Now doing good is not just doing something nice.
Now it appears to me in your world if it would be nice to make a cup of coffee
it is sin if I do not do it?

I think James is saying is someone is without food and you could offer him food
and do not do it, that is sin.

It strikes me you listen to the enemy telling you should do things that are not yours
to do and then feeling condemned. OCD says when you pass litter in the street you
must pick it up. It leads to massive life problems for people.

Some people have a self condemnation problem, which when put in a christian context
leads to devaluing the very gospel of grace and acceptance Christ brought us.

But without examples it is hard to quantify this kind of issue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

you mean like how folks don't want to talk about what James said- he who knows to do good and not do so, it is sin.

this levels the playing field, so no one , not you, not me, can say ( truthfully ) say that we meet this standard every hour of every day.

of course , this is a fact, not a feeling or emotion, so I doubt you will have much interest in it........

Why bother bro, He said he wanted to discuss, We brought the point to him, and he just blew us off.. Proving he has no desire to discuss anything, then slandered us again.

It is a total waste of time.. Come into the other room, we are gonna have cake.. let this person wallow in his mire..

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus is calling to your hearts.
Listen to His promises and exercise faith. Reach out and believe and know
God himself can transform us into a Holy Redeemed people out of just
ordinary people who are not great in this world.

The enemy will always tempt you away with the same disappointments you
have had in the past. But Christ is God, our Saviour and able to deliver.

 

[Grace777x70]

If we don't understand that we are the righteousness of God in Christ - that we have anew heart - we are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness because we are one spirit with the Lord in union forever with Him - then this "doing good" and not doing good is sin will cause us to be condemned in our natural un-renewed minds.

It will lead to the religion of a works-based self-righteousness where we need to create and maintain our own righteousness. Of course this is what the whole premise of "lose your salvation" is based on.

It is at it's very core "works-righteousness " belief system which is really a part of the world's belief system - instead of "faith-righteousness" which is only found in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

 

[garee]

Jesus is calling to your hearts.
Listen to His promises and exercise faith. Reach out and believe and know
God himself can transform us into a Holy Redeemed people out of just
ordinary people who are not great in this world.

The enemy will always tempt you away with the same disappointments you
have had in the past. But Christ is God, our Saviour and able to deliver.

You are advocating walking by sight and not by faith (that not seen .Its what the apostate Jews performed turning things upside down walking after a sign that they perform.Stumbling over the cross the emblem of grace and mercy.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:18


It why Christ said to them below

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life Joh 5:39

Learn what it mean to "walk by faith" and then you will not do despite to the Spirit of grace.

 

[Chris1975]

If we don't understand that we are the righteousness of God in Christ - that we have anew heart - we are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness because we are one spirit with the Lord in union forever with Him - then this "doing good" and not doing good is sin will cause us to be condemned in our natural un-renewed minds.

It will lead to the religion of a works-based self-righteousness where we need to create and maintain our own righteousness. Of course this is what the whole premise of "lose your salvation" is based on.

It is at it's very core "works-righteousness " belief system which is really a part of the world's belief system - instead of "faith-righteousness" which is only found in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Romans 8v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 8v4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Amen! I love that scripture. Notice it says that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled "in" us - and not "by" us.

Notice in verse 3...that is why the "that" is there in verse 4. What we couldn't do because of the flesh - God did! He condemned sin in the flesh. Sin in the flesh has no more power to condemn us - now we are to walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill "it's" desires.

The flesh has been cut away from the new man in Christ by the circumcision of Christ. Col. 2:11

This is speaking of the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. Christ in us has done that requirement. He alone is our righteousness.

And we are not "in the flesh" but "in the spirit if Christ is in us." We do not "walk according" to the flesh in this life now that we are in Christ and are a new creation in Him. We walk according to the spirit now because we are in Christ where there is no condemnation.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[PeterJens]

Romans 8:4-17

If you read this as a whole single human, walk according to the Spirit we walk righteously.
Christ empowers and makes this possible in us.
A choice is put forward, live to the Spirit, life, live according to the flesh you will die.

So though one arrives at a place of spiritual birth in Christ we can walk in life or walk
in death. Now you could argue Paul meant lack of spiritual growth or literal apostacy.
He leaves it open, that if the Spirit of Christ is living in you, things will work to life,
if not to death.

"by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body"

This is very much by the Spirit we can walk righteously.
It is why I find it odd that people oppose this reality so clearly.

Maybe it is because the words testify to something they fail to realise, so
reinterpret it into some complex theology which really does not answer the
problem but takes away the doubt and guilt.

I do wander why there is this doubt, Paul did not have it, so the first step
is realising this walk is possible in the Spirit. I have not heard Spirit led
holiness preachers yet, but maybe they will come, Amen, Thank you
Jesus.

 

[Chris1975]

Amen! I love that scripture. Notice it says that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled "in" us - and not "by" us. Absolutely

Notice in verse 3...that is why the "that" is there in verse 4. What we couldn't do because of the flesh - God did! He condemned sin in the flesh. Sin in the flesh has no more power to condemn us - now we are to walk by the spirit and we will not fulfill "it's" desires. Agreed

The flesh has been cut away from the new man in Christ by the circumcision of Christ. Col. 2:11

This is speaking of the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness. Christ in us has done that requirement. He alone is our righteousness.

And we are not "in the flesh" but "in the spirit if Christ is in us." We do not "walk according" to the flesh in this life now that we are in Christ and are a new creation in Him. We walk according to the spirit now because we are in Christ where there is no condemnation.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Cool with all the above. Then do you agree with verse 12 ?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Or are you saying with the scriptures you posted that its no longer possible to live by the flesh?

Or do you think the choice as to serving the flesh or serving the Spirit remains with the believer, as in the below scripture?

[SUP]verse 5 [/SUP]For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

Cool with all the above. Then do you agree with verse 12 ?

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Or are you saying with the scriptures you posted that its no longer possible to live by the flesh?

Or do you think the choice as to serving the flesh or serving the Spirit remains with the believer, as in the below scripture?

[SUP]verse 5 [/SUP]For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

The scripture says that we don't have to live according to the flesh because we are Not according to the flesh. we are in the spirit. Learning how to walk by the spirit is what we do now so that we don't fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

The flesh is not the real us. We are still responsible with what we do with these bodies which is why we are learning to walk by the spirit.

We don't stop doing the desires of the flesh and that means we then are walking by the spirit. That is backwards and religion always gets the gospel and the things of God backwards.

Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will die real soon in this life. Take some prescription drugs from your doctor and a side effect can be depression and then suicide. Tale up slandering others in the body of Christ and that too will have some form of destruction in our lives.

Sinning does not affect the new creation in Christ. Christ is joined as one spirit with us and sinning will not affect Him.

Verse 5 in Romans 8 is describing the unbeliever who is "according to the flesh" and the believer who is "according to the spirit".

There is a difference in "according to the flesh" which is being "in the flesh" and is descriptive of an unbeliever and "according to the spirit which is being " in the spirit" which is descriptive of a believer.

The believer can still walk "by" the flesh as it says in Gal. 5 and a believer can walk "by" the flesh too which is still left over after the old man has died. In the flesh is the law of sin. Rom. 7:14-23