Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

while the bible teaches conditional eternal security.

Lets think of this for a minute.

Eternal (meaning forever)

Security (meaning freedom of risk, Or danger, Freedom of doubt, something which makes us feel secure or safe)

Conditional (something that is not secure, Not safe, Which by its mere defenition can leave doubt, Because it is dependent on the condition which NO ONE can know if those conditions will be met or not, Which is wrought with danger (if conditions are not met, The reward (salvation) will not be given)

Yeah, These terms contradict.

It is either conditional security *which is no security at all* and is not eternal.

or it is eternal security..

I will just add, How you can go from eternal security to "conditional" eternal security, just boggles my mind.

 

[PeterJens]

Spiritual rules reality check

Unbelievers are to be judged.
Believers are to be judged
Angels can sin and be judged

Judgement is because people are warned and then chose to act.
Sinful actions receive a price.

Anyone can do sin at any time, and the price is the same,
judgement.

So salvation is conditional on stopping sin.

Jesus made it plain. If part of you body means you cannot stop
it is better to loose it than be thrown into Hell. It is that simple.

 

[Chris1975]

[h=1]Hebrews 2New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]Do Not Neglect Salvation[/h]2 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. <we, includes the writer of Hebrews> [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, <your salvation can be neglected. and you can drift away> which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

 

[Grace777x70]

That's right - speaking to the Jews - the writer of Hebrews is saying how shall we escape if we neglect to believe in Christ and not in the Mosaic Covenant.

Hebrews 2:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

The “therefore” is referring to the points made in Hebrews 1. Since Jesus is a superior revelation of God and His will than the message the angels communicated, therefore, we should pay more heed to what He has revealed than was given to the Old Testament doctrine.

The Greek word “PARARRHUEO” that was translated “slip” in this verse means “to flow by, i.e. (figuratively) carelessly pass (miss)” (Strong’s Concordance). God’s Word and all the benefits that it brings can pass us by if we don’t earnestly heed to.

The Amplified Bible translated this as “neglect and refuse to pay attention to.” Both The Living Bible and Weymouth’s New Testament translated this as “are indifferent to.”


The New Covenant Word that Jesus brought is superior to and supersedes the Old Covenant Word communicated through angels. Therefore, we will definitely have to answer for our acceptance or rejection of this better revelation. There will be no excuses.

Remember your audience in this letter - It's called "Hebrews" for a reason. The writer of Hebrews is relating to the Jews and their understanding of the Old Covenant.

Don't neglect the truth that salvation is in Christ - the writer then spends the rest of the book showing how Christ is much better the Aaron's priesthood. The New Covenant is better than the Old...etc.


Paul uses the editorial "we" to include all the listeners of the letter.

For example - how shall "we" in here at CC go to heaven to be with the Lord unless we believe in His work. Does that mean none of us have believed. It's called an editorial "we" to include all people.

Here is another one: If "we" don't believe in Christ and stay in unbelief then it's going to be a fearful experience to fall into the hands of God.

 

[Chris1975]

That's right - speaking to the Jews - the writer of Hebrews is saying how shall we escape if we neglect to believe in Christ and not in the Mosaic Covenant.

Hebrews 2:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

The “therefore” is referring to the points made in Hebrews 1. Since Jesus is a superior revelation of God and His will than the message the angels communicated, therefore, we should pay more heed to what He has revealed than was given to the Old Testament doctrine.

The Greek word “PARARRHUEO” that was translated “slip” in this verse means “to flow by, i.e. (figuratively) carelessly pass (miss)” (Strong’s Concordance). God’s Word and all the benefits that it brings can pass us by if we don’t earnestly heed to.

The Amplified Bible translated this as “neglect and refuse to pay attention to.” Both The Living Bible and Weymouth’s New Testament translated this as “are indifferent to.”


The New Covenant Word that Jesus brought is superior to and supersedes the Old Covenant Word communicated through angels. Therefore, we will definitely have to answer for our acceptance or rejection of this better revelation. There will be no excuses.

Remember your audience in this letter - It's called "Hebrews" for a reason. The writer of Hebrews is relating to the Jews and their understanding of the Old Covenant.

Don't neglect the truth that salvation is in Christ - the writer then spends the rest of the book showing how Christ is much better the Aaron's priesthood. The New Covenant is better than the Old...etc.


Paul uses the editorial "we" to include all the listeners of the letter.

For example - how shall "we" in here at CC go to heaven to be with the Lord unless we believe in His work. Does that mean none of us have believed. It's called an editorial "we" to include all people.

Here is another one: If "we" don't believe in Christ and stay in unbelief then it's going to be a fearful experience to fall into the hands of God.

"Hebrews" is a name given to the letter long after the Word was written. And yes it deals with a message to the Jews. And yes it is 100% applicable to the Gentiles as well. For IN CHRIST, the two men have become one.

Ephesians 2
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— [SUP]12 [/SUP]that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

[h=3]Christ Our Peace[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, [SUP]15 [/SUP]having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

 

[JohnTalmid]

I understand that the finished work of Christ conflicts with the religious teachings of some people that say those that belong to Christ lose their salvation. We don't save ourselves. Christ alone is the Savior. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit with be in you forever. John 14:16. Jesus is not a liar.

You would have more luck with trying to get me to believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation then Jesus is lying to us about the Holy Spirit and that He is the Savior based on His work alone which we receive by grace through faith.


Everyone is free to believe what they want. I personally believe that this "lose your salvation" doctrine is the worse thing that our enemy has put into the mind of man to undermine the work of Christ and to create a religion of 'saving ourselves".

It denies the very work of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and resurrection and nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

It has caused more harm to the body of Christ then any other foul doctrine that denies the work of Christ for His children that He loves dearly. Yes, there are false people amongst us but we don't bite and tear at the sheep because of them and condemn them because of the false ones.

I have read and heard from a few doctors that say a lot of the people in the mental institutions are Christians and it stems from this foul doctrine of losing one's salvation in Christ. The enemy has a field day with the minds and emotions of our precious brothers and sisters in Christ.

We need to preach and teach the grace and love of God so that we can grow up in Him.

You shall not do at all what we are doing here today, every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes;

Do we not being a part of Israel seek an inheritance?

In those days there was no king of Israel; and in those days the tribe of the Danites was seeking an inheritance for themselves to live in, for until that day an inheritance had not been allotted to them as a possession among the tribes of Israel.

It was not until the testimony of the law of Elohim that the people came back to YHWH Elohim. It took a great woman with the ability to judge rightly for the son's of Israel to find right judgment. This reminds me of the bride of Messiah as a portrait. When we come to the truth it is sweet going down and turns bitter in our stomach's. That is just like what our salvation looks like with honest comparison to scripture. Are we not a miserable creature that has a broken and humbled heart? That is in my flesh there is a law that works death and in my spirit a law that works life and freedom into my mind? When it is written to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and strength do you forget to love YHWH with the same love as Messiah being he is our example?

You can't do it perfect and that is the goal of the Jewish Religion is to build such a fence around the law as to not approach it to fail. We have witnessed in our lives the same fence from the other side is all. All doing what is right in our own lives as if that pleases Messiah or Elohim.

Today do not harden your heart to hear the word of God who loves you and is not trying to trick you. If you're loving Elohim and His Messiah Yeshua made a way as you say even. Wouldn't there be an example in their word for us today? In fact yes and Messiah Yeshua being the word of God should be all the confidence we need to approach the law of Elohim with a new spirit and the end result always now being Messiah Yeshua. Can you see I have not put anyone under the law of Moses which seeks to enslave you which includes ANY denomination or power outside of the word of God. All we need is to pursue the law in love as if we are pursuing Messiah Yeshua and find He is the end result.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hebrews 2New King James Version (NKJV)

Do Not Neglect Salvation

2 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. <we, includes the writer of Hebrews> [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, <your salvation can be neglected. and you can drift away> which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

Again, continue reading the whole chapter and we find this ---

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [our Lord Jesus Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Jesus Christ destroyed him that had the power of death (the devil) – vs 14.

Jesus Christ delivers us from the bondage of the fear of death – vs 15.

Jesus Christ is a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God and makes reconciliation for the sins of the people – vs 17.

Jesus Christ runs to meet our urgent distress calls to deliver help, quickly responding to our urgent need (that's what the word "succour" means) – vs 18.


To those who think their complete salvation rests on anything but our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ holding us to Them, you are in bondage through fear of death as described in Hebrews 2:15.

And please understand, I am not saying that the believer can blithely sin to his/her heart's content. I have never said that and I do not believe anyone here on CC holds to this belief. So I do not need to hear any blather indicating that I advocate that sin is acceptable. Thank you.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Again, continue reading the whole chapter and we find this ---

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [our Lord Jesus Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Jesus Christ destroyed him that had the power of death (the devil) – vs 14.

Jesus Christ delivers us from the bondage of the fear of death – vs 15.

Jesus Christ is a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God and makes reconciliation for the sins of the people – vs 17.

Jesus Christ runs to meet our urgent distress calls to deliver help, quickly responding to our urgent need (that's what the word "succour" means) – vs 18.


To those who think their complete salvation rests on anything but our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ holding us to Them, you are in bondage through fear of death as described in Hebrews 2:15.

And please understand, I am not saying that the believer can blithely sin to his/her heart's content. I have never said that and I do not believe anyone here on CC holds to this belief. So I do not need to hear any blather indicating that I advocate that sin is acceptable. Thank you.

What are you calling sin? I hope you're not referring to the law.

 

[JohnTalmid]

I'm sorry if I'm not sure what you're saying. So often I have heard that the law is not required. It is those who practice this law that have been freedom from death through Messiah. It is through continued obedience that we find hope of salvation to come. Anyone outside of the way though they say they trust Messiah have been decieved by the flesh.

Don't you see the law only used to point to Messiah and now to those in Messiah it is Messiah, aka the tree of life.

 

[Katy-follower]

You would think its that simple lol. We can literally read the whole bible and take scripture for what it says then none of this would be a issue

You mean like "eternal" and "sealed unto the day of redemption"

Ephesians 1:3-14: "....In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"


Kings of old would attach their seal to a document or possession, in order to give it authenticity, ownership or authority.

One of many examples in the bible, to show how a seal is regarded....

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

 

[Katy-follower]

Just think about how heaven would respond if this were true, God saved an apostate, and had to take back his salvation.

There would be another rebellion in heaven. God is not as perfect as he claims.. Shoot, Satan might even have means for an aquital.

It's like some are rejecting the omniscience of God.

God knows the beginning from the end, so what would be the purpose of saving someone and then taking it back... and then saving them again...

 

[Katy-follower]

Gosh, hope I got the right one... the 3 Omni's, easily confusing and difficult to remember

 

[PeterJens]

What does God say? As is evidenced by this scripture I shared.... The apostates do not have the Spirit. This is from the bible, not me. Those who do not have the Spirit are not saved. Do you reject the scriptures to keep your personal view? Read through the entire chapter and see for yourself.

Apostates must have been believers or they could not apostate.

Why did the angels fall? How did sin enter creation?
Who defines what is real faith, or love, or reality?

I find it interesting but the chosen theme, it always dangerous
because it leads to arrogance. Commitment to love of others,
empowered by Christ is Gods mark.

Jesus chose us we did not choose Him.
Our response showed His faith in us was well founded.

Our security in Christ is in knowing this love flowing through our
lives, not in arrogance.

 

[Katy-follower]

I've not watched it all the way through yet, but Adrian Rodgers is sound. Very good so far. Worth watching...

"An exclamation mark.... not a question mark"

"A know so - not a hope so... a maybe so... a think so.. a feel so salvation"

Romans 8:28: "And we know...."

V29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" - the basis of assurance, the bedrock.



[video=youtube;Vj8eBDRtUQk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj8eBDRtUQk[/video]

 

[PeterJens]

Two concepts are very important
Redemption - We are redeemed, brought into fellowship, communion with God
Sanctification - We are sanctified through our walk with Christ to become in the
image of the Christ.

Paul is very clear. The disciples he was writing to where Gods Holy people but
they needed to mature and grow in Christ and love.

This means sowing to the Spirit rather than the flesh or the passions of this world.

The churches in the book of revelation are mainly about you know who I am,
you know what you need to do, if you are victorious you can claim the crown.

Without redemption you cannot be sanctified. Without sanctification you cannot
attain to the image of Christ. Being 100% like Christ, we will never know if we
have arrived, equally we cannot say I am in heaven, only I follow Christ, have love
flowing through my life, and live in Praise and worship to the King.

We are His people but cannot presume anything because we are sinners saved by
grace, and arrogance is a sin.

Love never is interested in its own position but in service of others.
So those who want to say they have arrived already have failed to understand the
foundation upon which they stand, and most probably have not arrived anywhere.

I have met some of the most spiritually arrogant people imaginable, because they say
they have gone to the 3rd heaven, spoken with angels, and prophets, and know it all.
Yet their lives are full of sin, confess past possessions by demons while being believers,
and do not preach about sin, repentance and righteousness, but spiritualism and seeking
contact with angels and the dead.

Jesus's way is so far from this place, it is little wonder many testify they cannot tell
whether demons or the Lord is moving amongst them. Insane.

Jesus is the sermon on the mount, which can take a lifetime to fully appreciate and work
through. There are many other passages that speak on the same themes but this is
the core.

Sin is so bad, if you are addicted to behavioural sin, it is better to mutilate your body than
be thrown into hell. Listening to many today, they do not want to even talk about sin, its
evil or Gods judgement of it, rather just say everything is ok, no problems, when this is just
lying and miss-representing the Lord of Hosts.

 

[gb9]

Two concepts are very important
Redemption - We are redeemed, brought into fellowship, communion with God
Sanctification - We are sanctified through our walk with Christ to become in the
image of the Christ.

Paul is very clear. The disciples he was writing to where Gods Holy people but
they needed to mature and grow in Christ and love.

This means sowing to the Spirit rather than the flesh or the passions of this world.

The churches in the book of revelation are mainly about you know who I am,
you know what you need to do, if you are victorious you can claim the crown.

Without redemption you cannot be sanctified. Without sanctification you cannot
attain to the image of Christ. Being 100% like Christ, we will never know if we
have arrived, equally we cannot say I am in heaven, only I follow Christ, have love
flowing through my life, and live in Praise and worship to the King.

We are His people but cannot presume anything because we are sinners saved by
grace, and arrogance is a sin.

Love never is interested in its own position but in service of others.
So those who want to say they have arrived already have failed to understand the
foundation upon which they stand, and most probably have not arrived anywhere.

I have met some of the most spiritually arrogant people imaginable, because they say
they have gone to the 3rd heaven, spoken with angels, and prophets, and know it all.
Yet their lives are full of sin, confess past possessions by demons while being believers,
and do not preach about sin, repentance and righteousness, but spiritualism and seeking
contact with angels and the dead.

Jesus's way is so far from this place, it is little wonder many testify they cannot tell
whether demons or the Lord is moving amongst them. Insane.

Jesus is the sermon on the mount, which can take a lifetime to fully appreciate and work
through. There are many other passages that speak on the same themes but this is
the core.

Sin is so bad, if you are addicted to behavioural sin, it is better to mutilate your body than
be thrown into hell. Listening to many today, they do not want to even talk about sin, its
evil or Gods judgement of it, rather just say everything is ok, no problems, when this is just
lying and miss-representing the Lord of Hosts.

lying and miss-representing. you should stop doing both before lecturing others about it. you know, take the plank out of your eye.......

it is absolutely laughable that someone who lies, slanders, calls others names, etc..... actually lectures others about not sinning. absolutely laughable.

 

[Chris1975]

[video=youtube;9eL57nAm9Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]

Just saw this video last night - an link from another CC member. Very good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, continue reading the whole chapter and we find this ---

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he [our Lord Jesus Christ] also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Jesus Christ destroyed him that had the power of death (the devil) – vs 14.

Jesus Christ delivers us from the bondage of the fear of death – vs 15.

Jesus Christ is a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God and makes reconciliation for the sins of the people – vs 17.

Jesus Christ runs to meet our urgent distress calls to deliver help, quickly responding to our urgent need (that's what the word "succour" means) – vs 18.


To those who think their complete salvation rests on anything but our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ holding us to Them, you are in bondage through fear of death as described in Hebrews 2:15.

And please understand, I am not saying that the believer can blithely sin to his/her heart's content. I have never said that and I do not believe anyone here on CC holds to this belief. So I do not need to hear any blather indicating that I advocate that sin is acceptable. Thank you.

Amen sis, It is sad that so many want to preach fear and lack of security, Instead of love and a reason to have hope.

It boggles my mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry if I'm not sure what you're saying. So often I have heard that the law is not required. It is those who practice this law that have been freedom from death through Messiah. It is through continued obedience that we find hope of salvation to come. Anyone outside of the way though they say they trust Messiah have been decieved by the flesh.

Don't you see the law only used to point to Messiah and now to those in Messiah it is Messiah, aka the tree of life.

If you practice law you have not found freedom from death. Thats not what it was given for. The law brought you to Christ (if you found Christ) now we turn to better ways. Not back to the old.

You want freedom from death, Turn to Christ and he will save you.

THEN if you want to be blessed. Learn the law of grace love and forgiveness (serving others)

Paul warned us about going back to the law. He called them apostates..

 

[PeterJens]

A lack of fear of God.

Is it wrong to fear God?

He is the judge. He is holy and righteous. He is unapproachable.
He knows all our sins. He knows the length of our days and has measured them.

A wise man would want to get right with God before he meets Him face to face,
a fool would ignore God and claim everything is ok because some teacher told them so.

In Christ and the cross we have reconciliation, when we walk in love and His ways.
A pure heart sees God, so go today to God to let the blood of Christ purify you
from all sin and evil.