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SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,964
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#21
One of my best friends who is Christian was focused on hell for a time being. I think she had some dreams on hell and a deep sense of demonic spirits in her presence. For instance, she doesn't like dolls with eyes in her home because she had seen some Youtube videos that said that demonic spirits live in them, and that the demonic spirits can see your activity through the eyes. She did not like a Venetian mask ornament that I had for this reason. She wanted me to watch Youtube videos on people going to hell and coming back, videos which had a lot of scary imagery (which I didn't). I did wonder if her focus on hell was self-caused (watching Youtube videos and listening to testimonies online, etc.) rather than revealed through God.
It was probably a stage in her journey that she (hopefully) grew out.
I noticed that a lot of people go through this phase at one point during their life, and then they outgrow it. I think it's an adjustment in perception, part of learning to see with spiritual eyes, sometimes fear appears as the believer is on the lookout for spiritual attacks. Finally at some point you realize that it's not from the outside the real danger comes, but from the inside.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: (...)
I think some of it is of God, some is addiction to fear (adrenaline is addictive), some is personal conviction, and some is weakness of faith (Rom 14).
Funny, I got rid of my venetian mask souvenir long ago - not that I thought that someone could watch me through it, it just wasn't pleasant "vibe" (in lack of a better description) to me anymore and I didn't enjoy it being on the wall.
And no, I don't think souvenirs are "evil", except maybe pagan art.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
32,395
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Florida
#22
I know of at least one...the rich man
I don't believe the rich man was in hell but perhaps it was a holding area. I am sure that if you are eternally separated from God you won't have access to Abraham anyone else to petition your concerns. It says that there was a chasm between them so that those who wanted to cross over from either side would be prevented to do so. I can't imagine anyone who is in heaven would contemplate an attempt to cross over into hell. This was after all a parable that teaches a valuable lesson and perhaps not an actual depiction.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,860
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#23
I don't believe the rich man was in hell but perhaps it was a holding area. I am sure that if you are eternally separated from God you won't have access to Abraham anyone else to petition your concerns. It says that there was a chasm between them so that those who wanted to cross over from either side would be prevented to do so. I can't imagine anyone who is in heaven would contemplate an attempt to cross over into hell. This was after all a parable that teaches a valuable lesson and perhaps not an actual depiction.
Not a parable but an actual event. Abraham’s bosom was in the heart of the earth across from hell until the Lord’s resurrection. He translated it to the third heaven where it is today. Hell is a temporary place of fire and torment. At the GWTJ hell will be cast into the lake of fire, the permanent place of fire and torment.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,964
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#24
Not a parable but an actual event. Abraham’s bosom was in the heart of the earth across from hell until the Lord’s resurrection. He translated it to the third heaven where it is today. Hell is a temporary place of fire and torment. At the GWTJ hell will be cast into the lake of fire, the permanent place of fire and torment.
There is no Scriptural evidence to confirm that "the heart of the earth" is some specific locality deep underground.
But there are multiple Bible evidences which suggest that this is a figure of speech:
"Heart of the seas" in Jonah 2:3, also "heart of the heavens"/"midst of heaven" in Deut 4:11

Matthew Poole's Commentary
...and the midst or the heart of it is not only that which is strictly and properly the middle part, but that which is within it, though but a little way, in which sense places or persons or things are said to be in the heart of the sea, Exodus 15:8 Proverbs 23:34 Ezekiel 28:2; and Christ in the heart of the earth, Matthew 12:40.
It is reasonable to take this as a poetic way to say that Jesus was buried.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,860
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#25
There is no Scriptural evidence to confirm that "the heart of the earth" is some specific locality deep underground.
But there are multiple Bible evidences which suggest that this is a figure of speech:
"Heart of the seas" in Jonah 2:3, also "heart of the heavens"/"midst of heaven" in Deut 4:11


It is reasonable to take this as a poetic way to say that Jesus was buried.
Before the Lord ascended, He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and set the captives free.

Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

You should get a KJV and ditch the commentary.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,860
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#26
There is no Scriptural evidence to confirm that "the heart of the earth" is some specific locality deep underground.
But there are multiple Bible evidences which suggest that this is a figure of speech:
"Heart of the seas" in Jonah 2:3, also "heart of the heavens"/"midst of heaven" in Deut 4:11


It is reasonable to take this as a poetic way to say that Jesus was buried.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,964
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#27
Before the Lord ascended, He first descended into the lower parts of the earth and set the captives free.

Ephesians 4
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

You should get a KJV and ditch the commentary.
I do read KJV. That happens to be my favorite version. :)
Jesus descended into the grave. He was literally enclosed into the earth in that cave. The grave was His descent into the earth. By His death and resurrection He led captivity captive and provided us gifts of eternal life.
The idea of some secret physical locality in the depths of the earth is not impossible. All I am saying is that this interpretation is non provable by the Bible, and as such, it shouldn't be claimed like a dogma.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,860
1,718
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#28
I do read KJV. That happens to be my favorite version. :)
Jesus descended into the grave. He was literally enclosed into the earth in that cave. The grave was His descent into the earth. By His death and resurrection He led captivity captive and provided us gifts of eternal life.
The idea of some secret physical locality in the depths of the earth is not impossible. All I am saying is that this interpretation is non provable by the Bible, and as such, it shouldn't be claimed like a dogma.
Lower parts of the earth and the heart of the earth...neither is a reference to His tomb.

Acts 2:
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth where hell is located and Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, was located at the time.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,429
5,432
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#29
Jesus descended into the grave. He was literally enclosed into the earth in that cave. The grave was His descent into the earth. By His death and resurrection He led captivity captive and provided us gifts of eternal life. The idea of some secret physical locality in the depths of the earth is not impossible. All I am saying is that this interpretation is non provable by the Bible, and as such, it shouldn't be claimed like a dogma.
SoulWeaver. You (and every Christian) have two options: (1) believe the words of Christ as ABSOLUTE TRUTH or (2) start speculating in your own human wisdom.

Everything you have said above is contrary to Scripture.

1. Christ Himself said that Sheol/Hades is an actual region in "the lower parts of the earth" or "in the heart of the earth" or near the core of the earth.

2. Christ Himself taught that before His resurrection the souls and spirits of all those who died went to Hades, but the righteous dead were separated from the unrighteous dead by a "great gulf" or chasm.

3. Christ Himself prophesied that while He was dead, He would descend to the "lower parts of the earth" (not the grave, since He was in a tomb, which was in a cave above ground).

4. Peter told us that while Christ was dead, His soul and spirit were alive in Hades, where He went to preach to the spirits in prison.

5. Paul told us that upon His resurrection, Christ "led captivity captive" meaning that all the saints who were held captive in Hades until His resurrection were released from there and taken to Paradise in the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

In view of all this it can not only be claimed as dogma, but as Bible doctrine, and here's the proof:

ACTS 2: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST GUARANTEED BY GOD
23 Him [Christ], being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


The moment Christ died, His soul and spirit went to Hades, whereas His body went into the tomb supplied by Joseph of Arimathaea. And Christ had already said that He would remain there for three days and three nights. He knew that He would be resurrected after that.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,964
1,657
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#30
Lower parts of the earth and the heart of the earth...neither is a reference to His tomb.

Acts 2:
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth where hell is located and Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise, was located at the time.
You have a right to your opinion.
This isn't the matter of salvation, believing Jesus death and resurrection is.
I have no reason to convince anybody, I simply wanted additional information to be available for reading and let others decide what will be their own opinion... God bless
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
3,964
1,657
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#31
SoulWeaver. You (and every Christian) have two options: (1) believe the words of Christ as ABSOLUTE TRUTH or (2) start speculating in your own human wisdom.

Everything you have said above is contrary to Scripture.

1. Christ Himself said that Sheol/Hades is an actual region in "the lower parts of the earth" or "in the heart of the earth" or near the core of the earth.

2. Christ Himself taught that before His resurrection the souls and spirits of all those who died went to Hades, but the righteous dead were separated from the unrighteous dead by a "great gulf" or chasm.

3. Christ Himself prophesied that while He was dead, He would descend to the "lower parts of the earth" (not the grave, since He was in a tomb, which was in a cave above ground).

4. Peter told us that while Christ was dead, His soul and spirit were alive in Hades, where He went to preach to the spirits in prison.

5. Paul told us that upon His resurrection, Christ "led captivity captive" meaning that all the saints who were held captive in Hades until His resurrection were released from there and taken to Paradise in the New Jerusalem in Heaven.

In view of all this it can not only be claimed as dogma, but as Bible doctrine, and here's the proof:

ACTS 2: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST GUARANTEED BY GOD
23 Him [Christ], being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Hades, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


The moment Christ died, His soul and spirit went to Hades, whereas His body went into the tomb supplied by Joseph of Arimathaea. And Christ had already said that He would remain there for three days and three nights. He knew that He would be resurrected after that.
You are mixing in the Jesus death and resurrection after three days and death being unable to hold Him (which is basic Christian teaching that probably 99.9% of us believe - I would hope?), to push some other side interpretations that are disputable (there are at least 5 different interpretations about "spirits in prison", per example). I simply have no interest to debate about that with you or anyone.
Have a blessed evening. :coffee::)
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,587
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#32
Maybe it is empty.
Hi Tourist!

Hades is not empty by any means, as the rich man is still there. And it continues to receive the unsaved 24/7.

At the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the end of the thousand years, after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire, the spirits of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history will be released out of Sheol/Hades and will also receive resurrected bodies, where they will be judged for all of their unrighteous acts:

"The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."

Sheol/Hades is always busy receiving the wicked day and night.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,587
1,609
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#34
I do read KJV. That happens to be my favorite version. :)
Jesus descended into the grave. He was literally enclosed into the earth in that cave. The grave was His descent into the earth. By His death and resurrection He led captivity captive and provided us gifts of eternal life.
The idea of some secret physical locality in the depths of the earth is not impossible. All I am saying is that this interpretation is non provable by the Bible, and as such, it shouldn't be claimed like a dogma.

================================================================
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”

And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
=====================================================================

When Jesus said to the thief "today you will be with me in paradise" He would have to be speaking about their spirits, since their bodies both died that very same day. This would demonstrate that though the Lord's body was in the tomb for three days and nights, but His spirit was in Hades, the side that was the place of comfort/paradise, the same place that Abraham and Lazarus were.

So it is provable, as I just proved it. You would be hard-pressed to call the tomb a place of paradise. Also, one would have to be conscious and aware in order to experience paradise. Also regarding the following scripture:

"because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay."

The scripture above regarding Christ which says "you will not abandon my soul to Hades" is in reference to God the Father not leaving the Lord's spirit down in Hades, which is the realm of departed spirits. And the next part of the verse which says, "You will not let Your Holy One see decay" is speaking about the Lord's physical body, which was resurrected on the third day.

Hades should never be translated as the 'the grave' but is defined by Strongs, based on scripture, as the place of departed spirits.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,587
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#35
I believe he was referring to Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) which is empty at present.
Well, if he was referring to the lake of fire, then yes, it is currently empty. It's first recipients, as you well know, will be the beast and the false prophet.
 

TheIndianGirl

Well-known member
Nov 22, 2019
534
393
63
#36
Hi Tourist!

Hades is not empty by any means, as the rich man is still there. And it continues to receive the unsaved 24/7.

At the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the end of the thousand years, after Satan has been cast into the lake of fire, the spirits of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history will be released out of Sheol/Hades and will also receive resurrected bodies, where they will be judged for all of their unrighteous acts:

"The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."

Sheol/Hades is always busy receiving the wicked day and night.
Any Biblical support that everyone in Hades/Sheol goes to the Lake of Fire?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,787
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#37
I don't believe the rich man was in hell but perhaps it was a holding area. I am sure that if you are eternally separated from God you won't have access to Abraham anyone else to petition your concerns. It says that there was a chasm between them so that those who wanted to cross over from either side would be prevented to do so. I can't imagine anyone who is in heaven would contemplate an attempt to cross over into hell. This was after all a parable that teaches a valuable lesson and perhaps not an actual depiction.
Yes the idea of us communing, seeking after the dead "necromancy" has a chasm fixed . So that dead men cannot come here as workers with familiar spirit and neither could we enter there.

Its not a holding area but a sufferings of the wage of sin (hell) speaking of a unbeliever (rich man) not yoked with Christ No sabbath rest to make the load lighter. The first death .

We live in corrupted bodies of sin that longs to be clothed with the incorruptible, eternal . The corrupted blood of Abel cries out from the heart of the earth longing to be clothed with the eternal

The parable of the Rich man (no man can serve two teaching masters ) necromancy and the words of God. All things written in the law and prophets.(sola scriptura)

Scripture does not support sufferings after the grave called purgatory . God is a God of mercy not wrathful vengeance .(I"ll get even with you) he is not evil in that way

Luke 16:26-31 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (the word of God) let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,(gospel) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Faith comes by hearing not seeing.

When a unbeliever dies their temporal hope of seeing another day in the land of the living is cut off. The corrupted body returns to the dust and their temporal spirit under the letter of the law "death "returns to the father of all spirits that gave breath to the dust.

In the old testament the Holy Spirit speaks of that chasm and the proper faithful tool, words of the law which were written in the Bible

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,787
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#38
Well, if he was referring to the lake of fire, then yes, it is currently empty. It's first recipients, as you well know, will be the beast and the false prophet.
What will tossed into the all consuming lake of fire .Is the letter of the law death .until the last day not one title or jot will ne removed. .Death as the wage of sin causes the sufferings we do suffer in these bodies of death .The first death. The second death the letter of the law with its sufferings of hell . . . will not rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation .

Death is the sufferings of hell. . no purgatory. Flesh returns to dust, the temporal spirit to the father who gave it subject to law . . . . . . death

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (or with) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

All suffer the first.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
9,587
1,609
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#39
Any Biblical support that everyone in Hades/Sheol goes to the Lake of Fire?
Well, the rich man of the rich man and Lazarus event, after the death of his body ended up in Hades where he was in torment in flame. In Revelation 20:15-21 we have information regarding the great white throne judgment, where the dead are resurrected, with their spirits being released from Hades. The scripture states that, those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death (lake of fire) will have no power over them. This would infer that the opposite is true of those who do not take part in the first resurrection, i.e. the second death has power over them. Those that the second death has power over, would be those who do not partake in the first resurrection, who are not resurrected until after the thousand years. This group are those whose spirits are released from Sheol/Hades as revealed below:

"The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

This group is always referred to as "the dead" even after they have been resurrected. And that because it is referring to their state of being with God. They are dead in their sins.

Like the rich man, everyone who finds themselves in Hades are in torment in flame. The fact that they will be released from Hades tells us that their names will have not been written in the book of life, otherwise they would never be in that place of torment in the first place.
 

bojack

Well-known member
Dec 16, 2019
1,881
815
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#40
Before you got saved?
So did you have any dread about a coming judgment or what did you believe you were being saved from?
Saved From death to Life and Truth . I could get anything I wanted except I got bored and sick and tired of being sick and tired of this life .. Jesus is the Truth and I had no idea until He revealed it and Himself to me . I was thirsty and hurt people , I didn't like it ...