Hell's Population Crock

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Jul 22, 2014
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#21
Dear Socrates:

I watched your video. I believe ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is unbiblical, too.

We may not believe exactly the same, but you might find the following posts I had written insightful and or thought provoking:

A list in the Bible that shows that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever."

What about Revelation 14:11?

The Fate of the Devil and his Minions.

Explaining Lazarus and the Richman.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~Jason.


...
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#22
"For ever and ever" in greek is aion and aion - ages to ages - does not mean endless. When the fire is out, there shall be no more death - no more first or second death.
What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! Not future! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night andnot for all eternity.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).


 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
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#23

Alright fellas...quick question or two.
Isn't the word "forever" used in the Bible, for....... God, Heaven, AND Hell??
How can it not mean "forever" when in reference to Hell?, and yet when the EXACT SAME WORD applied to "God or Heaven" it means forever-forever?

I don't expect a response.
.......We all can sometimes explain away the things we do not like in scripture.
It's a bad habit of human beings.
:(
 
Jan 18, 2015
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#24

Alright fellas...quick question or two.
Isn't the word "forever" used in the Bible, for....... God, Heaven, AND Hell??
How can it not mean "forever" when in reference to Hell?, and yet when the EXACT SAME WORD applied to "God or Heaven" it means forever-forever?


I don't expect a response.
.......We all can sometimes explain away the things we do not like in scripture.
It's a bad habit of human beings.
:(

The Eternal Damnationists hate and can't attempt to explain away Acts 3:19-26 with THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS WHICH IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT..
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#25

Alright fellas...quick question or two.
Isn't the word "forever" used in the Bible, for....... God, Heaven, AND Hell??
How can it not mean "forever" when in reference to Hell?, and yet when the EXACT SAME WORD applied to "God or Heaven" it means forever-forever?

I don't expect a response.
.......We all can sometimes explain away the things we do not like in scripture.
It's a bad habit of human beings.
Words can have multiple meanings within the Scriptures. Sons of God can be in reference to angels in the OT and Sons of God can be in reference to believers in the NT. Besides, there are many examples in the list I provided of the link that you just quoted. Did you bother to look them up in Scripture? Or are you just mentally folding your arms and shaking your head?
 
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Aug 15, 2009
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#26
"For ever and ever" in greek is aion and aion - ages to ages - does not mean endless. When the fire is out, there shall be no more death - no more first or second death.

Next..
Mark 3:27-30 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Jesus declared, All the sins and blasphemies (derogatory words vs. God) of men (generic, “people”) are open to God’s gracious forgiveness (cf. 1:4) with one exception—blasphemies against the Holy Spirit. In light of the context this refers to an attitude (not an isolated act or utterance) of defiant hostility toward God that rejects His saving power toward man, expressed in the Spirit-empowered person and work of Jesus. It is one’s preference for darkness even though he has been exposed to light (cf. John 3:19). Such a persistent attitude of willful unbelief can harden into a condition in which repentance and forgiveness, both mediated by God’s Spirit, become impossible. This person is guilty (enochos, “liable to, in the grasp”) of an eternal sin (sing., the ultimate sin because it remains forever unforgiven; cf. Matt. 12:32). Judas Iscariot (cf. Mark 3:29; 14:43-46) proved the reality of these words.— The Bible Knowledge Commentary

Next.....
 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
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#27
Words can have multiple meanings within the Scriptures. Sons of God can be in reference to angels in the OT and Sons of God can be in reference to believers in the NT. Besides, there are many examples in the list I provided of the link that you just quoted. Did you bother to look them up in Scripture? Or are you just mentally folding your arms and shaking your head?

I investigate all.
I don't respond much in the BDF, because I never feel led....
Others usually get to it before I can.

It just seems to sound like a sleight of hand type reasoning, you have there.

"Forever never means forever when it pertains to hell....but when it comes to heaven it is forever, because now the definition for forever, is interchangeable, when it comes to nice things!!!."

You don't hear how wild that sounds man?

How do we EVER teach that to anyone outside of Christ?
I'm serious?
It sounds made up, and probably a reason they don't like our beliefs in the first place.
We tend to pick and choose things.
 
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Jan 18, 2015
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#28
Mark 3:27-30 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Jesus declared, All the sins and blasphemies (derogatory words vs. God) of men (generic, “people”) are open to God’s gracious forgiveness (cf. 1:4) with one exception—blasphemies against the Holy Spirit. In light of the context this refers to an attitude (not an isolated act or utterance) of defiant hostility toward God that rejects His saving power toward man, expressed in the Spirit-empowered person and work of Jesus. It is one’s preference for darkness even though he has been exposed to light (cf. John 3:19). Such a persistent attitude of willful unbelief can harden into a condition in which repentance and forgiveness, both mediated by God’s Spirit, become impossible. This person is guilty (enochos, “liable to, in the grasp”) of an eternal sin (sing., the ultimate sin because it remains forever unforgiven; cf. Matt. 12:32). Judas Iscariot (cf. Mark 3:29; 14:43-46) proved the reality of these words.— The Bible Knowledge Commentary

Next.....
Here we go...Vertigo!!

Stevo, you should really get a Strongs Concordance and Interlinear Bible so you can "study to shew yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" - II Tim 2:15

You can find them both Online.

Next..
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#29

I investigate all.
I don't respond much in the BDF, because I never feel led....
Others usually get to it before I can.

It just seems to sound like a sleight of hand type reasoning, you have there.

"Forever never means forever when it pertains to hell....but when it comes to heaven it is forever, because now the definition for forever, is interchangeable, when it comes to nice things!!!."

You don't hear how wild that sounds man?

How do we EVER teach that to anyone outside of Christ?
I'm serious?
It sounds made up, and probably a reason they don't like our beliefs in the first place.
We tend to pick and choose things.
So you actually looked up each verse on that list? Yes, or no?
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#30
Mark 3:27-30 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: [SUP]29 [/SUP]But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [SUP]30 [/SUP]Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Jesus declared, All the sins and blasphemies (derogatory words vs. God) of men (generic, “people”) are open to God’s gracious forgiveness (cf. 1:4) with one exception—blasphemies against the Holy Spirit. In light of the context this refers to an attitude (not an isolated act or utterance) of defiant hostility toward God that rejects His saving power toward man, expressed in the Spirit-empowered person and work of Jesus. It is one’s preference for darkness even though he has been exposed to light (cf. John 3:19). Such a persistent attitude of willful unbelief can harden into a condition in which repentance and forgiveness, both mediated by God’s Spirit, become impossible. This person is guilty (enochos, “liable to, in the grasp”) of an eternal sin (sing., the ultimate sin because it remains forever unforgiven; cf. Matt. 12:32). Judas Iscariot (cf. Mark 3:29; 14:43-46) proved the reality of these words.— The Bible Knowledge Commentary

Next.....
Damnation is a consequence.

So the consequences are eternal. There is no mention of folks being tortured in fire for all eternity in this verse.

Mark 3:29 NLT
"but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences."
 
Jan 18, 2015
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#31
Damnation is a consequence.

So the consequences are eternal. There is no mention of folks being tortured in fire for all eternity in this verse.

Mark 3:29 NLT
"but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences."
NLT - that is one demonic translation of that verse - the greek states, "not forgiven in this age or the age to come" - age of law and church age. another simple answer.
Jesus is a cool dude - he has no interest in torturing people.
 

Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
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#32
So you actually looked up each verse on that list?
Are you telling me...........that the definition will change each and every time I run across it?????!!!
I have to make sure to have my "decoder ring" on me, every time I run across the word forever or eternal???

It seems to me, that you will always treat the Bible like it's a code to be cracked?
Believing that to understand it, ....one has to overanalyze and dissect the Word and EVERY WORD IN IT?

You don't seem to get it. ...you never seem to grasp the obvious flaw in that line of thinking?

You're confusing Jason.
You mix and play around with scripture for some reason? Obsessing on being right?
I don't get your style of teaching?
 
Aug 15, 2009
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#33
Here we go...Vertigo!!

Stevo, you should really get a Strongs Concordance and Interlinear Bible so you can "study to shew yourself approved, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" - II Tim 2:15

You can find them both Online.

Next..
Many of those who reviled Christ on the cross (which was a blaspheming of the Son of man, aggravated to the highest degree), found mercy, and Christ himself prayed, Father, forgive them; but this was blaspheming the Holy Ghost, for it was by the Holy Spirit that he cast out devils, and they said, It was by the unclean spirit, v. 30. By this method they would outface the conviction of all the gifts of the Holy Ghost after Christ's ascension, and defeat them all, after which there remained no more proof, and therefore they should never have forgiveness, but were liable to eternal damnation. They were in imminent danger of that everlasting punishment, from which there was no redemption, and in which there was no intermission, no remission. Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible.

5. (3:29-30) Sin, Unforgivable: the fourth rebuttal by Jesus was that there is one danger—the danger of committing the unforgivable sin. The unforgivable sin is ascribing God's work to the devil (see note—[SUP]•[/SUP] Matthew 12:31-32 for a detailed discussion and application of the Unpardonable Sin).
The unforgivable sin is committed by the man who continues and continues...
• to reject the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
• to blind himself to the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
• to wilfully sin despite conviction by the Holy Spirit.
• to insist on his own way.
• to oppose the work of the Holy Spirit.
• to justify himself in his sinful behavior.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12).
Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible - Commentary

Verse 29
Hath never forgiveness. Not that any sinner need despair of forgiveness through the fear that he may have committed this sin; for his repentance shows that his state of mind has never been one of entire enmity, and that he has not so grieved the Holy Spirit as to have been entirely forsaken by him. But is in danger of eternal damnation. The Greek words, according to the most approved reading, are ἀλλ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος: but is guilty of an eternal sin; thus showing that there are sins of which the effects and the punishment belong to eternity. He is bound by a chain or’ sin from which he can never be loosed. (See St. John 9:41, “Therefore your sin remaineth.”)
The Pulpit Commentary – Volume 16: Mark and Luke.

3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."NRSV There is one sin that cannot be forgiven—blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit refers not so much to a single action or word as to an attitude. Those who defiantly deny Jesus' power and persistently refuse to believe that he is the Messiah are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Matthew's Gospel states it this way, "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matthew 12:32 NIV). Jesus was not talking about rejecting him, but of rejecting the power behind him.
Life Application Bible Commentary

Next.....
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#34
NLT - that is one demonic translation of that verse - the greek states, "not forgiven in this age or the age to come" - age of law and church age. another simple answer.
Jesus is a cool dude - he has no interest in torturing people.
First, I am not defending eternal torture. Second, nobody really knows Biblical Greek like Paul and the other apostles to say with 100% authority that their interpretation on the Greek is right. Yes, we can make an educated guess by the repeat usage of a word and it's context, but nobody on this planet speaks and writes Biblical Greek like those before us. It is a dead language. God does not require us to study Hebrew and Greek. They are merely tools to help us understand what the Word is saying in our own language. They should not be the only tools we use. Prayer, comparing Scripture with Scripture, researching what other believers believe, and context should always be in our toolbox when we study God's Word, too.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#35
Are you telling me...........that the definition will change each and every time I run across it?????!!!
I have to make sure to have my "decoder ring" on me, every time I run across the word forever or eternal???

It seems to me, that you will always treat the Bible like it's a code to be cracked?
Believing that to understand it, ....one has to overanalyze and dissect the Word and EVERY WORD IN IT?

You don't seem to get it. ...you never seem to grasp the obvious flaw in that line of thinking?

You're confusing Jason.
You mix and play around with scripture for some reason? Obsessing on being right?
I don't get your style of teaching?
The Bible has Homonyms within it. You will either study the Word and research that fact for yourself, or you will take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. It's your choice. For I notice that you didn't say .... Yes to my question. Meaning you really did not investigate what was on my list.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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#36
Dear Socrates:

I watched your video. I believe ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is unbiblical, too.

We may not believe exactly the same, but you might find the following posts I had written insightful and or thought provoking:

A list in the Bible that shows that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever."

What about Revelation 14:11?

The Fate of the Devil and his Minions.

Explaining Lazarus and the Richman.

In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~Jason.


...
when the Bible speaks of eternal life for those that are in Christ...is that temporary too? is the same greek word used for both eternities for unsaved and saved alike?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#37
when the Bible speaks of eternal life for those that are in Christ...is that temporary too? is the same greek word used for both eternities for unsaved and saved alike?
Yes, it's everlasting punishment (consequences) and not everlasting punishing. The consequences is eternal. God is not going to be punishing them forever. That is forced in by your interpretation of the text because of what you believed since day one about Hell. So you are not capable of looking at Scripture in any other way.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#38
The Scriptures associate the wicked with words such as: burn them up, stubble, be no more, perish, death, destroy, destruction, etc.


  • Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
  • Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.."



  • Psalm 1:6-"Be the way of the ungodly shall perish."
  • John 3:16-"Whosoever believeth in him should not perish." (Greek: destroyed)
  • Romans 6:23-"For the wages of sin is death."
  • Hebrews 10:39-"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
  • Revelation 20:14-"This is the second death."



  • James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.
  • Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.
  • 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
  • Psalm 92:7-"...it is that they (i.e. all evil doers) shall be destroyed forever…"
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#39
We gain "Immortality" only from the Gospel:

There is a gift we get from believing the gospel; it is called "everlasting life" (John 3:16). Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message,

"Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).

If all souls are born immortal, then why are we encouraged to seek it?

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" (Romans 2:7)

Why would Jesus offer us an opportunity to "live forever," if we all live forever?

"If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever." (John 6:51)

The truth is, the abundant life Jesus (Yeshua) promises us is in eternity, it is immortal life, everlasting life.

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)

Believers will live forever. How much more abundant can you get?

In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.

Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

(Note: While I agree with this site's view on the Lake of Fire, I do not agree on their view of soul sleep or a denial of the intermediate state, i.e. Hades).
 
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Reborn

Senior Member
Nov 16, 2014
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#40
The Bible has Homonyms within it. You will either study the Word and research that fact for yourself, or you will take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. It's your choice. For I notice that you didn't say .... Yes to my question. Meaning you really did not investigate what was on my list.
Which list, you post a million of them?

There are so many important salvation issues to address, and yet you seem bent on just teaching that OSAS is wrong and hell is just a quick drop by?
You obsess over tidbits and unprovable doctrines. Why is this?
Why the do you have a passion for trivial topic debates?

You say in one debate "I trust every word in my Bible"...then you go and dissect every word in the Bible, cross referencing them with another million MAN written books?
So you don't trust your Bible? Why lie to us?

You have this idea that if you rip apart God's word and dig so deep, revelations on the mysteries of the Kingdom will then be handed and or revealed to you?

This is NOT how it works, dear brother Jason........

When do you ever give credit to the Lord?.........in guidance, love, faith and that He will show His children who follow Him, the truth?
That is, when we honestly seek, not seek like a man who trusts himself to uncover the mysteries?

You debate yourself often, replying to your own posts. You are confusing simply by the sheer amounts of text you drop.
You never read over others posts carefully, we know this, pushing away others who want to help you too.
This shows ego.
How can I trust anything you give me to read man, when you have proven over an over, that you are not here for equal fellowship, but to teach your own guesswork theology?

Why should I trust what you bring brother? Why should we?

 
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