Help a sister out, will ya?

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
17,117
3,749
113
#21
The easiest way for me is simply to say His Name is Yahweh, or I am that I am...….He is whatever is His Choice to be. If anyone looks at the grammatical roots of His titles he will soon find these are all just that, Titles of His Manifestations……… Again knowing He is to reveal a name and a single language for all peoples in His time should be more than sufficient to realize His name is not yet known to any flesh.

But He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…...He is One. Why then can He not be Wisdom and Understanding......after all wisdom and understanding are from Him………...as for gender callings, this too is a need only the weak in faith need. He is Who He iuntil all is revealed and clear on His Great and Beutiful day when we shall be made perfect...by Him, amen
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,735
3,128
113
#22
In my opinion only I suspect...........wisdom and understanding are not persons......they are qualities of persons.

They are not God, they are qualities of God. Just as love, anger, jealousy, charitable acts, grace, powerful, omnipresent, etc. etc.

Anyway, I just think it can simply be understood that the Book of Proverbs was by and large POETRY. And, when we keep that in mind, we can also keep in mind Poetic License.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#24
Not all of Proverbs 8 is before the creation of the earth. There is a progression in the verses:

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: (Genesis 1:1)
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: (Genesis 1:6ish)
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: (Genesis 1:10ish)
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Pro 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth (Genesis 1:20-24ish); and my delights were with the sons of men (Genesis 1:26 and onward).

I pray that this was helpful to you and my sister.
When it says in (8:30-31) 'Then I was by him...and my delights were with the sons of men', the word 'then' goes back to verses (27-29). When he created the heavens, and the foundations of the earth, then Wisdom's delights were with the sons of men.

Man was not created at this time, yet Wisdom's delights were with the sons of men. I believe this shows that God's people were always in the mind of God and He knew us 'forever' and delighted in us even before the creation.

Quantrill
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
4,553
1,082
113
#25
My questions come from this in regards to the created...
. "From everlasting I was established, From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. "When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no springs abounding with water. "Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth;

And the female question about wisdom is because of the female pronoun she referenced a couple times at the beginning of chapter 8. I know that I wasn't reading it correctly so hence, here I am.
God created woman feminine. The Holy Spirit has lovlines and helpfulness as does woman.
There is no " mrs God", but the Holy spirit has some of her traits.
The harmony of God's creation is similar to the harmony of heaven in that God is a God of purpose. We see purpose in what he does and created.
Women were created in purpose. They,as do man,have purpose.
I see similarity in women and the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly,the fall came through woman. All were fallen "through" her.
But through Mary all can be saved.
The feminine component is a key component.
Through Ruth,a gentile, came David,and Jesus.
Such depth in something that seems sorta hidden.
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
285
72
28
#26
I find this so interesting...

So we know God, Yud Heh Vav Heh, Elohim, is male as is Yeshua. But here we have Godly wisdom, created and possessed by Him at the beginning. Thus we have the word, but now wait why is wisdom, Godly wisdom female? Please be patient with me, and humor me, will ya? I am sure my thinking here needs some guidance so will you help a sister out? Doesn't this seem perplexing to you? I think Adonai is far beyond gender and that in Christ we are one. But still how does the wisdom fit with its feminine qualities and it being created?
Why would Godly wisdom not be female? God may use masculine pronouns and Jesus was a man, but in the broader scheme, the maleness of christ includes the female. The church is always described as feminine, but clearly the church is made up of men and women. God is bigger than gender. He includes both the male and the female. Both are equal as the Father and Son are equal. Christ has a submissive role, as do women, but this has nothing to do with status.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#27
Why would Godly wisdom not be female? God may use masculine pronouns and Jesus was a man, but in the broader scheme, the maleness of christ includes the female. The church is always described as feminine, but clearly the church is made up of men and women. God is bigger than gender. He includes both the male and the female. Both are equal as the Father and Son are equal. Christ has a submissive role, as do women, but this has nothing to do with status.
Oh thank you, I like the way u think. Truly pleasant, and makes a good point. The He and She (submissive to He as the Son is to the Father) make the One. Thank you.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#28
God created woman feminine. The Holy Spirit has lovlines and helpfulness as does woman.
There is no " mrs God", but the Holy spirit has some of her traits.
The harmony of God's creation is similar to the harmony of heaven in that God is a God of purpose. We see purpose in what he does and created.
Women were created in purpose. They,as do man,have purpose.
I see similarity in women and the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly,the fall came through woman. All were fallen "through" her.
But through Mary all can be saved.
The feminine component is a key component.
Through Ruth,a gentile, came David,and Jesus.
Such depth in something that seems sorta hidden.
So wait not, do you think the Godly wisdom is the Holy Spirit, not His Son? You make some excellent connections and I am falling in love with the depth of a matter in the word, so thank you for helping me explore.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#30
In my opinion only I suspect...........wisdom and understanding are not persons......they are qualities of persons.

They are not God, they are qualities of God. Just as love, anger, jealousy, charitable acts, grace, powerful, omnipresent, etc. etc.

Anyway, I just think it can simply be understood that the Book of Proverbs was by and large POETRY. And, when we keep that in mind, we can also keep in mind Poetic License.
Oh I have enjoyed these responses so much. Thank you and I think keeping in mind that they are not people does allow some room for them being attributes we know as feminine. It also prevents the reading into, and trying to figure out because it reads Wisdom and understanding perhaps that is what they are and that God possessed them and brought them up with Him shows the wisdom and understanding in His creation, in His design. Hmmmm, interesting indeed.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#31
Oh I have enjoyed these responses so much. Thank you and I think keeping in mind that they are not people does allow some room for them being attributes we know as feminine. It also prevents the reading into, and trying to figure out because it reads Wisdom and understanding perhaps that is what they are and that God possessed them and brought them up with Him shows the wisdom and understanding in His creation, in His design. Hmmmm, interesting indeed.
I love how His book calls out the analytical mind and the poetic.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#32
The easiest way for me is simply to say His Name is Yahweh, or I am that I am...….He is whatever is His Choice to be. If anyone looks at the grammatical roots of His titles he will soon find these are all just that, Titles of His Manifestations……… Again knowing He is to reveal a name and a single language for all peoples in His time should be more than sufficient to realize His name is not yet known to any flesh.

But He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit…...He is One. Why then can He not be Wisdom and Understanding......after all wisdom and understanding are from Him………...as for gender callings, this too is a need only the weak in faith need. He is Who He iuntil all is revealed and clear on His Great and Beutiful day when we shall be made perfect...by Him, amen
So much straight forward reverence for the sovereignty of Yahweh here, thank you for your input.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
14,207
8,261
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#33
In my opinion only I suspect...........wisdom and understanding are not persons......they are qualities of persons.

They are not God, they are qualities of God. Just as love, anger, jealousy, charitable acts, grace, powerful, omnipresent, etc. etc.

Anyway, I just think it can simply be understood that the Book of Proverbs was by and large POETRY. And, when we keep that in mind, we can also keep in mind Poetic License.
You are right on target p_rehbein, wisdom is a character of God and not a person. We can say God created wisdom by defining it just like good and evil. You reference in the article of why "she" was used had a very defining paragraph:

The grammatical construction is an artifact of the process of personification. In other words, since the word wisdom is feminine by grammar, when we personify it, it becomes a she to satisfy diction — not to add information to its object.
In Greek nouns have gender, so she was used as a grammar function. :cool:
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
5,997
6,497
113
#34
You are right on target p_rehbein, wisdom is a character of God and not a person. We can say God created wisdom by defining it just like good and evil. You reference in the article of why "she" was used had a very defining paragraph:



In Greek nouns have gender, so she was used as a grammar function. :cool:
I am so glad to know this forum is filled with sound minds, thank you.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
11,017
4,332
113
#35
But still how does the wisdom fit with its feminine qualities and it being created?
While "Wisdom" has been personified as a female in Proverbs, that does NOT change the FACT that the Godhead is masculine. So just accept that both are true and that a figure of speech should not be substituted for this reality:

GOD THE FATHER = MASCULINE = HE

GOD THE SON = MASCULINE = HE

GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT = MASCULINE = HE
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
4,553
1,082
113
#36
So wait not, do you think the Godly wisdom is the Holy Spirit, not His Son? You make some excellent connections and I am falling in love with the depth of a matter in the word, so thank you for helping me explore.
Wisdom is knowledge applied, or the act of applying knowledge correctly.

In 1 cor we see wisdom imparted to us as a gift
1 Corinthians 12:8
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit

Imparted by The Holy Spirit.

Wisdom comes from God.