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Jan 17, 2013
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Romans 3:10: "There is none righteous, no, not one;"

Romans 3:23: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

God is God. He does not need a sinless vessel to give birth to a sinless Jesus. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. Mary was just a vessel. Read the scriptures, for they prove she was a sinner like everyone else, in need of a savior.

To say she was sinless is to put her on the same level as Jesus, because only He was sinless.
Adam and Eve and the angels were created sinless, Katy. Does that put them "on the same level as Jesus"? Of course not. The premise of your argument is invalid.

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

Immaculate Conception
 
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TosinAsLeader

Guest
I lost interest in this thread once everyone else joined in to include their important doctrines.
 
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7seven7

Guest
I lost interest in this thread once everyone else joined in to include their important doctrines.
Little brother, they're doctrines put in place to prove the Truth! You really should pay attention to them. Just saying.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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Do you have a stutter? Or have you got a parrot typing everything for you? I dont partake in things not pleasing to the Heavenly Father. Trust me. You need not worry lol. A true child knows what his father likes, and I, MY DEAR SISTER, AM A TRUE CHILD OF MY FATHER'S NOW! BODY MIND AND SOUL! I'm going to bed now. Sweet dreams.

You are amusing yourself...



Read the Old Testament and learn of the Almighty God.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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You only need one doctrtine for God to accept you
Cry out to God for the forgiveness of your sins, believe the son of God died for you on the cross and ask him into your life as Lord and Saviour. That's it, God will accept you, forget all the add ons man insists on(catholic or protestant)
 
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7seven7

Guest
You only need one doctrtine for God to accept you
Cry out to God for the forgiveness of your sins, believe the son of God died for you on the cross and ask him into your life as Lord and Saviour. That's it, God will accept you, forget all the add ons man insists on(catholic or protestant)
Yeh, but how will he understand the Word of God at the age of 16 without guidance? Mate, i have trouble understanding alot of it at the age of 32 without help from my brothers and sisters. Crying out to God is very important, but its not all he needs to do.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,471
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Adam and Eve and the angels were created sinless, Katy. Does that put them "on the same level as Jesus"? Of course not. The premise of your argument is invalid.

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!

But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

Immaculate Conception
No biblical backng on this immaculate conjecture that she was sinless or never got angry and never sinned, this could be, God can do anythiong God wants, but God is not a liar. but it is conjecture. God considered her righteous by Faith, just as God considered all other Saints righteous by them having Faith in him and then they did what he said he wanted and that is the seal Hebrews 11, and regardless yes Jesus was born from Mary as a Virgin that is imaculate, Her himon had never been broken that is what is immaculate, not whether she ever sinned or not. And Mary's Job done after raising Jesus.
Jesus Christ has been placed above all POWERS and PRINCIPALITIES chapter 2 of Collosians.
Anyway I see no where in Scripture that Mary is involved after the virgin birth and the raising of Christ. Be careful that we put noone before Christ for it is by Christ that we have access to God the Father period praying to Mary is out of line, for Christ said it clearly that he is the way the truth and the life. If we pray to Mary why not John the Baptist he baptized Jesus, and afterward said his Job was over that he must decrease and Jesus must increase. Or wait a minute why not Paul lets be of Paul, or Appollos, read 1 Corinthians, I am just saying we all need truth the truth that sets us free that is what God came to earth to do was and is to set us free first by the death of Christ for the believer to be free from the Law that Christ filled and prooved that he was and is the redeemer. After we see his death and believe we get freed by this death from the Law believing in Jesus, then after that because we see that we are freed from the Law, and thus by that we are dead to the Law. Then God raises us back to a new life with a new Spirit the Holy Spirit in us to guide us into all truth inside of us working his way out through usutting God's light on our lamp stand for all to see, this is immaculate born again and did not physically die or go back into moms womb and be born again. No born again of God by the Spirit of God, through first being freed from the Law at the death of Christ by Christs last sacriffice and only sacrifice, along with the last shedding of blood. Tell me where is Mary involved here or any other Saint considered Righteous by Faith
Love you
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,471
216
63
Yeh, but how will he understand the Word of God at the age of 16 without guidance? Mate, i have trouble understanding alot of it at the age of 32 without help from my brothers and sisters. Crying out to God is very important, but its not all he needs to do.
by the Guidance of the Holg Ghost installed in you on the first day of belief
Ephesians 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
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TosinAsLeader

Guest
Little brother, they're doctrines put in place to prove the Truth! You really should pay attention to them. Just saying.
I was refering to the opinion based doctrines, not the biblical ones.
 
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OceanGrl

Guest
I lost interest in this thread once everyone else joined in to include their important doctrines.
I've only been frequenting the forum for a couple of weeks and I have witnessed so much division between Christians on here. Topics where no one can agree and they use biblical verses to support their position while someone else finds other verses to support theirs, and it just goes back and forth... creating fear and confusion. Everyone believes they are in the right and don't acknowledge that it might be a pride thing, not budging on their position or even just considering another viewpoint.

Anyways, basically, I'm saying I can understand where you're coming from.
 
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Tintin

Guest
Ocean, some are genuine Christians, some are non-Christians and some are trolls. But even Christians can fall to pride. I try to avoid that sort of thing but sadly, I've entertained pride several times whilst here. This is one of the reasons we need the grace of Jesus.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
You get used to it after awhile. Stick around. And it serves a purpose for without the differing perspectives it would be very boring. If you're looking for a place where everyone agrees with you, well... good luck with that.

I'm probably going to be taking a hiatus in the near future so that should drop the division here by 40%. LOL!

I've only been frequenting the forum for a couple of weeks and I have witnessed so much division between Christians on here. Topics where no one can agree and they use biblical verses to support their position while someone else finds other verses to support theirs, and it just goes back and forth... creating fear and confusion. Everyone believes they are in the right and don't acknowledge that it might be a pride thing, not budging on their position or even just considering another viewpoint.

Anyways, basically, I'm saying I can understand where you're coming from.
 
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OceanGrl

Guest
Ocean, some are genuine Christians, some are non-Christians and some are trolls. But even Christians can fall to pride. I try to avoid that sort of thing but sadly, I've entertained pride several times whilst here. This is one of the reasons we need the grace of Jesus.
I agree, we definitely need the grace of Jesus. It's just crazy how divisive Christians can be about things. An example are those who speak of fire and brimstone and consider themselves perfect don't seem to see the sin in being haughty. Those who are too relaxed on sin don't see the sin of being too liberal about it.
 
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OceanGrl

Guest
You get used to it after awhile. Stick around. And it serves a purpose for without the differing perspectives it would be very boring. If you're looking for a place where everyone agrees with you, well... good luck with that.

I'm probably going to be taking a hiatus in the near future so that should drop the division here by 40%. LOL!
Haha, I'll probably stick around and I agree that it would be boring if everyone agreed, it's just that even for little things there is no agreement. It's crazy! lol
 
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Tintin

Guest
The differences aren't the issue, it's that they're sometimes not being spoken with love.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Why I've got a mind to! How could you say something so hateful!



HAHAHAHA! Just joking of course. Good point Tintin; however, what we type and the way that is perceived are sometimes two different things on forums... a result of forums being a much less multimodal communication format than real life.

The differences aren't the issue, it's that they're sometimes not being spoken with love.
 
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TosinAsLeader

Guest
Why I've got a mind to! How could you say something so hateful!



HAHAHAHA! Just joking of course. Good point Tintin; however, what we type and the way that is perceived are sometimes two different things on forums... a result of forums being a much less multimodal communication format than real life.
Hey! It's the internet. So everyone is entitled to release hell and take cyber conversations to seriously....
 
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Tintin

Guest
Wow, that guy has a huge head. Must be top-heavy!