How Believers Are Clothed

[mark54]

I simply live by faith with my focus on God. The things of the world no longer mean anything to me. God purged then from me. I used to love the world and the things in the world but the love of the Father was not in me.

Yes I strive and through Christ I can do all things. That does not mean I never fall short due to a misunderstanding or negligence, but I simply get up again and move on. God chastens me when I am doing something wrong so as perfect holiness in me. I am not there yet but I am growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless what often happens in these forums is that people continually attempt to divert attention from what the Scripture actually teaches. I ask questions and people avoid them and try and find some means by which they can discredit the messenger.

The scriptures mean what they say.

You see the way you are preaching it Skinski, is that the individual has to perform almost perfect to be a Christian from the off, according to some of the literal letter.
You demand all of Christ's teachings/commandments are followed(maybe through love but you insist nonetheless they are all followed) yet you yourself appear not to follow them all yourself. That is simply crushing people with demands you yuorself do not try and keep
If you want to set the bar as high as you do for others, you have to live up to what you are preaching. But you can't do it can you in truth?

But there are sincere Christians, acutely aware of their sin, humble, sincere folk who read what you write and the scripture you bring forth and question whether they are saved, due to the demands you make. Demands you do not live up to yourself.
How much clearer can I/do I have to make this?

 

[zone]

People can "feed the poor," "run a soup kitchen," "write pamphlets," etc. for all manner of reasons but those deeds MEAN NOTHING if they are not done in LOVE. Paul addressed this very issue in 1Cor 13.

oh yes. how LOVING you and your cult have been.
anyone can go to standingthegap.org and see what kind of love you have loved others with.

thinketh no evil

really?
anyone can go to standingthegap.org and see what kind of evil you have thought and said about others.

sin, skinski. you've been committing horrendous sin against against the Church Jesus shed His blood for.

not loving. not love.

not faith in His loving all who come to Him in sincerity.
no faith in His effectual working in all who come to Him in sincerity.

HE DOESN'T NEED YOUR HELP.

your crazy teacher is only thinking evil.
no faith.
no love.
sin.

worse than your own personal sin - you've taken it to a whole new level...sin against Christ's SHEEP.

There is not a single thing in the Bible about a "cloak of righteousness" which covers a person "while they are still wicked." God imputes people righteous yes but it is FAITH which is counted as righteousness, it has nothing to do with a the literal righteousness of Jesus Christ cloaking you while you remain defiled in your sin.

do you know what the proto-evangelium is, skinski?
no. because you are a pelagian.

So instead of people addressing the points I raise they instead attempt to discredit the messenger. They attempt to divert attention away from what the Bible plainly teaches.

do you have sin, skinski?

a single word answer.

everybody knows the passages you post.
what do you think we're all doing here?

The doctrine of the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ To the Believer" is a doctrine which originated out of the Reformation and especially out of the works of Martin Luther. You won't find it taught before then.

what is your impued rightouesness through your faith IN?
WHAT is credited to you as righteousness?
what is it your have FAITH in that is counted a righteousness?

WHAT?
your obedience?

spell it out.

 

[Skinski7]

is any of that SIN skinski?
God won't be chastening you if you are not sinning.
can't even say it, can you.

"I am not there yet but I am growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ"

not where yet?
i thought you said you stopped sinning. no sin.
that means you're there.

if you have a perfect holiness, a pure heart and no sin, you are there.
which is it?

are you ever going to repent of your lying about your condition while demanding others wear a yoke you yourself do not bear?

are you ever going to renounce that nut who is opposed to Christ's Church and go back and make amends for the outrageous crimes you've committed against untold pastors?

because you know, that Christ forgives.
and i suspect everyone of those pastors you've sinned against would forgive you also.

you'd have to want to do it though.
you'd have to see your desperate need.
i wonder if you do.

Again you make no distinction between willful sin and sins done in ignorance.

In Numbers 15 there is a clear distinction made. There is a sacrifice for non-presumptuous sin and there is no sacrifice for willful sin.

Numbers 15:22-33
22 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
23 Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

That distinction can be found in the New Testament...

Heb 10:26-29
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Numbers 15:30-31 is a parallel to Hebrews 10:26-29. Compare both passages. There is a clear distinction between both kinds of sin.

Look at this passage...

1Joh 5:16-18
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.



There is a sin "unto death" and a sin "not unto death."

Rom 6:16 speaks of "sin unto death" and connects it to YIELDING.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin unto death is simply willful disobedience. It's not the same as an err in judgment. Why don't you make the distinction Zone? Answer that question.

I have noticed that you like to avoid my questions and simply divert to a new angle of attack. It seems like what the Bible actually teaches is a taboo subject to you if it contradicts your theology. Don't Catholics do the same thing when their dogma is brought into question?



God counts our faith as righteousness. In other words He looks at the heart and if the heart is clean, if there is no iniquity, if we are walking by a faith that works by love then God reckons us as righteous. Therefore when we wall short non-presumptuously we have an advocate for that, we get right back up and move on.

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

We walk by faith and not by sight. We are not workers of iniquity. We are workers of righteousness because we abide in Jesus Christ.

 

[zone]

Again you make no distinction between willful sin and sins done in ignorance.

GET DOWN TO IT.
isn't that what your advice was to a member who was worried about backsliding?

GET DOWN TO IT.
CAN YOU READ?

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

pasha: to rebel, transgress
Original Word: פָּשַׁע
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pasha
Phonetic Spelling: (paw-shah')
Short Definition: transgressed

to rebel, transgress

been in rebellion (1), committed (1), offended (1), rebel (1), rebelled (6), rebellion (1), revolted (7), transgress (3), transgressed (10), transgressing (1), transgression (1), transgressors (8).

offend, rebel, revolt, transgression,

A primitive root (identical with pasa' through the idea of expansion); to break away (from just authority), i.e. Trespass, apostatize, quarrel -- offend, rebel, revolt, transgress(-ion, -or).

Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great and he shall divide the spoil with the strong because he hath poured out his soul unto death and he was numbered with the transgressors and he bare the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors


Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"--and you forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah

guys like you stumble onto Hebrews 6 and run off and develop a series of destructive heresies.
are you EVER going to get down to it?
any CLUE what Hebrews is about?
what was the warning?

REJECTING THE ONLY SACRIFICE WE HAVE FOR WILLFUL SIN AND TRANSGRESSION AND GOING TO THE LAW.
that's YOU.

if you deny you sin, you're a LIAR.

 

[zone]

John was teaching that the outward conduct must match the profession.

that is NOT what that was about.
that was about claiming there's no such thing as sin. flesh is evil and doesn't matter and spirit is pure and does < that's what they believed.
and you and that crackpot have falsely attributed THAT belief to the church.

if you find a true antinomian anarhist who believes sin doesn't matter in the flesh, TELL ME WHO IT IS.
if you find out what the LICENTIOUS doctrine was and can find anybody in the visible church living that way let me know - DELIBERATE SINNING EQUATED TO GODLINESS. the worse the better.

claiming to walk in the Light while lying to oneself about having not sinned, and not having sin.
that's YOU.

go learn something.
if you've gotten some self-control. good for you.

are you ever going to give anyone else the benefit of the doubt or are you going to continue to preach the ministry of death as you do?

you are either CALLED (DECLARED) righteous FIRST by God - by virtue of HIS PLAN - HIS SON's Rigtheousness, then MADE to walk in His paths of righteousness, or you are toast.

you better get down to it.

 

[Skinski7]

You see the way you are preaching it Skinski, is that the individual has to perform almost perfect to be a Christian from the off, according to some of the literal letter.
You demand all of Christ's teachings/commandments are followed(maybe through love but you insist nonetheless they are all followed) yet you yourself appear not to follow them all yourself. That is simply crushing people with demands you yuorself do not try and keep
If you want to set the bar as high as you do for others, you have to live up to what you are preaching. But you can't do it can you in truth?

But there are sincere Christians, acutely aware of their sin, humble, sincere folk who read what you write and the scripture you bring forth and question whether they are saved, due to the demands you make. Demands you do not live up to yourself.
How much clearer can I/do I have to make this?

No, I am not saying that at all. I am not saying one has to be "perfect" in the sense of never falling short. I am saying one has to OBEY FROM THE HEART the DOCTRINE ACCORDING TO GODLINESS. To do that one must be broken in repentance, the wild horse must be tamed.


You twisting my words by saying that I am setting a bar that is impossible to reach. Who says I don't follow the teachings of Jesus? You? I do follow Him. My life belongs to Him. Not my will but His.

I am telling people that we have to come to the end of ourselves through a broken godly sorrow and repentance whereby we forsake our rebellion to God. We then yield to God by faith as we are led by the Spirit. It is very simple. We are to do the will of God and not our own will.

Most people don't want to do that and thus they try and formulate "another way" which caters to the lusts of their flesh. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the passions and desires. Our old man is crucified with Him once and for all, we are not crucified by degrees. The Bible is VERY CLEAR on all of this.

Jesus taught that we must strive to enter in at the strait gate and that MANY would seek to enter and be unable. This is because MANY are not willing to pick up their cross, DENY THEMSELVES and actually follow Jesus.

Are the Commandments of Jesus burdensome to you Mark?

1Joh 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


We are to live up to the demands ourselves. Otherwise we are HYPOCRITES.

Paul taught this...

2Cor 3:3-7
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds

5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.


Our own obedience must be fulfilled first. Hence Jesus taught that we have to remove the beam from our own eye before we can address the splinter in our brothers. One cannot see clearly whilst still walking in darkness. The light of the body is in the eye hence our eye must be singly focused on God in order that we be filled with light.

 

[zone]

No, I am not saying that at all. I am not saying one has to be "perfect" in the sense of never falling short.

SIN?
just say yes or no.
do






you







still









sin?

i left you lots of wiggle room.
go for it

 

[zone]

eh....another day wasted on skinski's junk?
nah.

i'm out.

 

[Skinski7]

that is NOT what that was about.
that was about claiming there's no such thing as sin. flesh is evil and doesn't matter and spirit is pure and does < that's what they believed.
and you and that crackpot have falsely attributed THAT belief to the church.

if you find a true antinomian anarhist who believes sin doesn't matter in the flesh, TELL ME WHO IT IS.
if you find out what the LICENTIOUS doctrine was and can find anybody in the visible church living that way let me know - DELIBERATE SINNING EQUATED TO GODLINESS. the worse the better.

You present a strawman. The wolves won't teach that "sin doesn't matter," they clearly teach that it does. What they do teach though is that "willful sin doesn't matter AS IT PERTAINS TO SALVATION." That is the error. Thus they can preach morality as something you SHOULD abide by but they disconnect MANIFEST CONDUCT from the being IN CHRIST. This is what Enow did in the first post. He is teaching that one can be IN CHRIST and be in rebellion at the same time. In other words one can serve two masters. It is unbiblical.

Here is what Martin Luther said....

We see then how rich a Christian, or baptized man, is; since, even if he would, he cannot
lose his salvation by any sins however great, unless he refuses to believe; for no sins
whatever can condemn him, but unbelief alone.

http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/BABYLONIAN_CAPTIVITY_OF_THE_CHURCH.pdf

Right there Martin Luther disconnects salvation from MANIFEST CONDUCT and thus is clearly teaching that YOU CAN SIN and yet REMAIN JUSTIFIED. While none of these wolves will say "YOU SHOULD SIN" they always imply that "YOU CAN." Hence when I ask pastors if a pornography addict has to forsake that behaviour in order to be reconciled with God they say NO! A pastor I spoke with the other week was telling me about a man in his congregation who was addicted to pornography and yet he was telling me this man was still saved an on his way to heaven, I told the pastor that this man had to be broken in repentance and forsake the lusts of his flesh which draw him into sin. I asked the Pastor how this man could be Christ's if he had not crucified the flesh with the passions and desires. He had no answer. None of them ever do. There is no crucifixion of the flesh in repentance in their gospel.

Can you imagine Paul using the following words to illustrate the grace of God...

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Martin Luther, Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

The man who stated that (as far as I can tell) INVENTED the doctrine of the imputed righteousness of Christ. He thus DENIED that the MANIFEST CONDUCT of a believer was reflective of whether they were truly in Christ or not. It is pure Gnosticism dressed up in Christian terminology. It is not surprising that he reached these conclusions because he was an avid student of the writings of Augustine of Hippo who was schooled in Neo-Platonic Philosophy for many years and was also a devout Manichaean Gnostic before his conversion to the Catholic faith.

Yet instead of addressing the crux of what I write Zone you say things like this...

claiming to walk in the Light while lying to oneself about having not sinned, and not having sin.
that's YOU.

Yet you make NO DISTINCTION between willful sin which is rooted in iniquity and non-presumptuous sin which is due to a lack of understanding. Your tactic is to blur the two and then use a broad brush to discredit the messenger whilst COMPLETELY AVOIDING the issues at hand.

 

[mark54]

Most people don't want to do that and thus they try and formulate "another way" which caters to the lusts of their flesh. The Bible clearly teaches that those who are Christ's HAVE crucified the flesh with the passions and desires. Our old man is crucified with Him once and for all, we are not crucified by degrees. The Bible is VERY CLEAR on all of this.

Are you saying that once someone becomes a Christian they have no sinful desires because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires? D
Are the Commandments of Jesus burdensome to you Mark?

1Joh 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


We are to live up to the demands ourselves. Otherwise we are HYPOCRITES.

.

Exactly
So why will you not respond to the list of Christ's commandments I placed before you and tell me if you always strive and succeed in obeying them? If you do not, according to what you wrote you must be a hypocrite.

Also
If you do not follow all of Christ's commands, can you love God according to what you wrote above?

 

[SarahM777]

Yet you make NO DISTINCTION between willful sin which is rooted in iniquity and non-presumptuous sin which is due to a lack of understanding. Your tactic is to blur the two and then use a broad brush to discredit the messenger whilst COMPLETELY AVOIDING the issues at hand.

A couple of questions for you.

Was Jonah a child of God?

Was Jonah in willful disobedience when he got on that ship to Tarshish?

 

[Skinski7]

Exactly
So why will you not respond to the list of Christ's commandments I placed before you and tell me if you always strive and succeed in obeying them? If you do not, according to what you wrote you must be a hypocrite.

Also
If you do not follow all of Christ's commands, can you love God according to what you wrote above?

If I was to give you a written list of what I did this week what would that prove? How would you know if was telling you the truth? You wouldn't!

Didn't your opening statement pertain to not doing works for a show?

Don't let anyone know when you do a good deed(wherever possible) keep it between you and your Father in Heaven who will reward you.

When(if) you fast the same. Don't let others know,(if this is possible) keep it between you and your Heavenly Father, otherwise you are a hypocrite

Yet then you want me to make a list? You are being very inconsistent.

I won't be drawn into your game. This is a forum where we are to discuss what the Scriptures teach. Can you address the valid scriptural points I make or is it simply easier to obfuscate and misdirect attention?

Let's stick to what the Scriptures actually teach.

 

[Skinski7]

A couple of questions for you.

Was Jonah a child of God?

Was Jonah in willful disobedience when he got on that ship to Tarshish?

Here is what Jesus taught...

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Which of the two sons was like Jonah?


Jesus also taught this...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The question we need to ask ourselves is are we workers of iniquity or are we doing the Father's will?

How do we know the Father's will?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[Enow]

John was teaching that the outward conduct must match the profession. Thus one cannot be WALKING in darkness and be in fellowship with God. In fact one cannot be WALKING in darkness and be cleansed of all sin.

The condition of being cleansed is to be WALKING IN THE LIGHT. Your walk is your deeds. Your walk is what you do. We have to be in submission to the lead of God before the blood will cleanse. Hence the need for repentance.

John then continues with his teaching that DEEDS MUST MATCH the PROFESSION.

1Joh 2:1-6
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Notice in verse 1 it says "IF ANYONE SIN." Not WHEN but IF. If 1Joh 1:8-10 was teaching that the sin never stops then verse 1 would say WHEN. John uses IF because SIN IS THE EXCEPTION and NOT THE RULE.

And yet here, John was talking about how a believer is claiming to have fellowship with Him when living in sin, thus proving that the believer was out of fellowship with Him when living in sin. That does not mean that the believer no longer has the Holy Spirit or that he was never saved because then, there would be no reason to post this warning below.

Ephesians 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Zone you teach that SIN IS THE RULE and NOT THE EXCEPTION. You are in opposition to what the Bible plainly states. Right there in verse 1 your error is shown.

How do you explain that scripture in light of what you believe? Can you see the inconsistency?

I have not read any of her posts as saying that.

Notice in verses 3-6 that the WALK must match the PROFESSION. How do those verses compare to the reformed doctrine of the "Imputed Righteousness of Christ" ? They state the complete opposite.

Enow in the original post of this thread asserts that one can be IN CHRIST and yet be IN REBELLION at the SAME TIME. John in this passage completely demolishes that assertion.

You keep mixing the two topics of imputed righteousness of Christ by how we have received the remission of sin when we believed in Him and thus have received the promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation with how we are to be His disciple by continuing in His words to be abiding in Him and having fellowship to bear fruit and that we lose not our full reward of being that vessel unto honour in His House that Christ by His righteousness has made us to be.

Every believer is saved, BUT not every believer is continuing in His words to bear fruit as His disciple. That is why Jesus taught His disciples to teach other believers all that He has taught them so that they may be His disciples too. The reward for leaning on Him as our Good Shepherd to continue in His Words is how one is being chosen for the Marriage Supper.

John 15:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These things I command you, that ye love one another.

All throughout that chapter, the commandment we are to do to be found abiding in Him is to love one another. That is how one continues in His words in being His disciple, and even here, we need His help because we are also to love our enemies. Without Him, we can do nothing.

If you have any doubt as to the point of this abiding as nothing to do with salvation, but with being His disciple to bear fruit, then read these verses in context.

John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.[SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

The problem here is that you would zero in on verse 6 and ignore the reward of doing all of that is verse 8.

Yes: there is burning, but you ignored what kind of burning Jesus was referring to. Believers in Jesus Christ have now that foundation and what we build on that foundation will be judged. That is what will be burned, but the believer is still saved because that foundation remains and cannot be removed.

1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Hebrews 10:[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I agree with John. I agree with Jesus. I agree with Paul.

I can only conclude that people disagree with me because they must not really believe what the Bible teaches. I tend to think they have an emotional attachment to some doctrines of men that when they are shown to be in conflict with the Scripture the doctrines of men are upheld and the Scripture is then misapplied to prove the false doctrine.

The only emotional attachment is recognizing what God has done in having saved us, brother. How we build on that foundation shows whethor or not we are abiding in Him by faith in continuing in His words as His disciples or not.

 

[Skinski7]

A couple of questions for you.

Was Jonah a child of God?

Was Jonah in willful disobedience when he got on that ship to Tarshish?

A couple of questions for you.

Was David a child of God?

If David had of refused to repent of his adultery and murder would he have been forgiven by God?

If David would have died in the commission of that sin would he have entered the kingdom?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

[SarahM777]

Here is what Jesus taught...

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Which of the two sons was like Jonah?

You missed the point. Was Jonah in rebellion? And if so wasn't he forgiven and restored for that sin?

 

[Skinski7]

Enow....


What is salvation to you? What actually is it. What does being saved mean?

You say things like...

You keep mixing the two topics of imputed righteousness of Christ by how we have received the remission of sin when we believed in Him and thus have received the promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost at our salvation with how we are to be His disciple by continuing in His words to be abiding in Him and having fellowship to bear fruit and that we lose not our full reward of being that vessel unto honour in His House that Christ by His righteousness has made us to be.

Every believer is saved, BUT not every believer is continuing in His words to bear fruit as His disciple. That is why Jesus taught His disciples to teach other believers all that He has taught them so that they may be His disciples too. The reward for leaning on Him as our Good Shepherd to continue in His Words is how one is being chosen for the Marriage Supper.

Firstly there is not a single scripture in the entire Bible which pertains to the "imputed righteousness of Christ" so unless you can prove that assertion WITH SCRIPTURE you ought not be teaching it. The Bible clearly teaches that FAITH is imputed as righteousness, it does not teach that CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS is imputed. We are made righteous IN HIM because we are led by the Spirit as we walk by faith and Jesus Christ will always lead us to righteousness and not sin.

What you are doing is setting up this idea that you can not be "in fellowship" and yet be "saved." What is salvation to you then? A mere judicial position you hold? Is that what you believe salvation is?

WHAT IS SALVATION? WHAT ARE YOU ACTUALLY SAVED FROM?

If you can be walking in darkness and rebellion and at the same time be "saved" then obviously salvation has nothing whatsoever to do with being "saved from sin" like Mat 1:21 clearly states. It obviously has nothing to do with being "redeemed from ALL iniquity" and "being made pure" like Tit 2:14 states.

What is salvation to you? Please explain. The terms need to be clearly defined.

I assert that salvation is both being reconciled to God through the blood of Christ where your PAST SINS are forgiven (Rom 3:25) and that the BONDAGE of sin has been broken whereby you no longer submit to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God (Rom 6).

 

[mark54]

If I was to give you a written list of what I did this week what would that prove? How would you know if was telling you the truth? You wouldn't!

Didn't your opening statement pertain to not doing works for a show?


Yet then you want me to make a list? You are being very inconsistent.

I won't be drawn into your game. This is a forum where we are to discuss what the Scriptures teach. Can you address the valid scriptural points I make or is it simply easier to obfuscate and misdirect attention?

Let's stick to what the Scriptures actually teach.

You see Skinski

All you can do is deflect isn't it.
To your credit you're not lying and saying you strive every day to keep all of the literal commands I posted.
But you see, you are certainly demanding of others what you cannot live up to yourself
So some become crushed by your demands and question their salvation, while you carry on with your Christianity leaving some demoralised people in your wake, who actually believe you live up to what you preach and demand of others

I'm sorry Skinski, but you, like so many preach the literal letter as to what is required without any understanding of how the convert is to grow in the faith. You preach that immediately upon conversion a convert crucifies their flesh and have only a pure heart. I know Christian counsellors who have to work with people who have suffered under teaching such as yours. Many of them became consumed by lust/sex addiction. If you had any real understanding of Rom ch7 you would understand why that was
for once you state a person upon conversion has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires, you in effect put them straight back under law.]
They fear that if they have sinful desires, and their heart is not pure as the driven snow God will reject them. They are therefore back under law, and the natural, sinful desire to rebel against that which is Holy and good rises up in opposition to the good and Holy laws of God
Or put it another way. Satan knows the convert now will judge their Christianity as to whether they have a completely pure heart or not, or as to whether they have sinful passions/desires, they cannot stand by faith in Christ, that is now impossible. So satan will just plant in them impure thoughts until the convert gives up, believing they are too much of a sinner to be saved
That is the spiritual reality. Of course it won't affect insincere people who go to church and put on an act each week and pretend to be something they know they are not, but it will crush the sincere.
As you do not know that is the truth I can only conclude you do not understand much spiritual reality, only some of the literal word.

 

[Skinski7]

No point missed at all. Jonah was forgiven and restored AFTER he repented, not before. The Prodigal Son was not forgiven and restored until AFTER he forsook the pig pen and his rebellion. He forsook his rebellion and turned back to the Father. Just like Jonah and just like David.

Yet people like Enow teach that one is "saved" whilst in "rebellion." Salvation has been redefined into some abstract notion of a judicial application instead of something that is actually manifested in the here and now.

This is why very few pastors warn their congregations about walking according to the lusts of the flesh and how it relates to losing your soul. What you do is who you are and it is a reflection of who you belong to.

We are slaves to whom WE obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

No one can be set free from sin unless they obey from the heart the doctrine of Christ. An essential part of Biblical Salvation is being SET FREE FROM SIN. If one has not been set free from sin then they are still the slave of sin and by definition NOT SAVED.

Israel was not free when they were still in bonds in Egypt. They had to be delivered through the Red Sea which is a picture of Baptism whereby we die with Christ and are raised up to newness of life. A prisoner is not free until they leave the prison cell. A sinner is not free if they still yield to the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God and sin.

Peter wrote of those who have "escaped the corruption in the world through lust" in order that they may partake in the divine nature. Salvation involves escaping the corruption in the world through lust. This aspect of which is CLEARLY TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE is not being taught in the pulpit. WHY?

They don't teach it because it contradicts their theology which is based on substitution. They teach that you swapped track records with Jesus. They teach that Jesus obedience is credited to your account and that your wickedness is credited to His. Thus Jesus absorbed your punishment and God PRETENDS that you are Jesus. That is the basic foundation of what is taught in most protestant churches today. Yet the Bible does not teach that.

Satan is a theologian and is very crafty and he has invented a theology which will damn those who buy into it because it negates being truly reconciled with God whereby the iniquity within the heart has been purged. People are coming to a "notion" of salvation based upon isolated proof texting instead of truly abiding in Jesus Christ by faith.

This is why the church system is full of sin. Practically no-one has crucified their old man in repentance and therefore there is an attempt to reform the old man gradually by degree. Thus a Christian still serves two masters, is divided in heart, produces good and evil fruit. All of which is the opposite of what the Scriptures teach.

If you read the Epistles of Paul, James, John and Peter you find admonishment after admonishment and warning after warning to depart from all iniquity and practice holiness. These men knew very well that the unrighteous will not enter the kingdom.

One is either in submission to God or they are not. There is no middle of the road grey area. One is either hot or cold. God hates lukewarmness.

 

[BarlyGurl]

Amid all the argueing... I am having trouble sorting out. I think there is a point about sin is NOT "just sin" because God is pretty clear about defining certain types of sin as abominations worthy of magisterial death penalty. And that God sees the "heart" of the matter where as a person might commit a "technical" sin with right heart motives. Just as a person can commit
"righteous" acts with sinful motives. Some are going to be scratching their head about what I just wrote...you probably fall into the "legalism" thinking (sorry). A truly saved person, who has put on Christ, been born again having the indwelling Holy Spirit cannot use their LIBERTY to sin egregiously. A newly born again person SHOULD be legalistic in thinking... this is the measuring tool to reconstruct their life according to God's principals while they are growing... yet at some time should surpass the NEED for legalism and thus shed it as they continue to mature SPRITUALLY. The problem I see is that (barring universal salvation heresy) the believer is concieved by the spirit... and becomes convicted and convinced... this is the "pregnancy" time... then the person REPENTS (has a mind change which recognizes the NEED for salvationand DESIRES to be Born Again... so he takes the necessarry steps For that to Happen... which is repent, confess, receive the Holy Spirit, be clothed anew in Christ. Seems to me there are many many many people who have been concieved in the spirit... talk alot of Christian-ese but have not actually taken the steps to be born again.