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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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So Yeshua doesn't have the power to remove our sins? Did Paul also died in sin? He followed the Laws of HaShem, in his own words as noted in the prior post. So if Paul was so lost, as you make it sound that I am also, why bother with anything he said?
He has the power to do so. But He doesn't. Our sin nature remains. What He offers is to live in us.
This is wholly consistent with God's dealings with mankind. We were never made to live independently of God. We were made to live by Him. Just as God came each day to walk with Adam and Eve, God remains with us day by day that we might walk in Him by His Spirit.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Let me give my understanding of that passsage. It will be way different that yours.
Yes the Law does have dominion over us as long as we are above ground, breathing, and have a pulse.
The law is clear in regard to marriage. As we all know til death do us part. So it is no wonder that Paul, a man who folloed the Law in his heart, seen this as fact. However as we should note, if she remarries when he is still living, she is guilty of adultery. The laws that govern marrage came with an exportation date built in. When one dies, the other is now free to remarry. What does this mean? Working with Paul's words here. Should the women remarry do you know what happens? Thats right she now back under the laws of marriage. So the law hasn't been removed, it simply can't be applied to a person that isn't married. Much like the laws that govern the high priest can't be applied to you or me.
Paul is right, we should have died to the letter of the law, yet in his own words he still did his best to follow a law you wish to see as him saying we are dead to. Rom. 7:25.
So does it add up that if we are free from the law in the way you say, that Paul would follow it, and tell us he does so? No it doesn't. Unless Paul was so confused he didn't remember what he had just said. Or maybe Paul is a hypocripte, inf so, we should place no stock in anything he said. Keeping the context of one passage in line with what came before and after, as well the whole of scripture is a must.
You seem to think Paul a hypocrite, because he is very clear that we have died, in order to belong to another Husband - Christ - to Whom we are espoused/engaged, and will marry when He returns to smatch up His bride.

You see we cannot belong to the Law and to Christ.

or maybe you don't believe Paul is a hypocrite - because your entire conversation has been utter rejection of what is written here in Romans. you rather think he is a liar instead.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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I understand your position. Both scripture and experience show it to be in error.
Yet sripture also shows my side or I wouldn't be saying it. Keep in mind Paul also keep the Law. Thats a hard one to get around.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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He has the power to do so. But He doesn't. Our sin nature remains. What He offers is to live in us.
This is wholly consistent with God's dealings with mankind. We were never made to live independently of God. We were made to live by Him. Just as God came each day to walk with Adam and Eve, God remains with us day by day that we might walk in Him by His Spirit.
And His Torah tells us how to walk with him. So it is a valid law even today, just as sin is a valid part of life today. Also He does remove our sin. So yes He does forgive our sin. If not then our salvation is made of no account.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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You seem to think Paul a hypocrite, because he is very clear that we have died, in order to belong to another Husband - Christ - to Whom we are espoused/engaged, and will marry when He returns to smatch up His bride.

You see we cannot belong to the Law and to Christ.

or maybe you don't believe Paul is a hypocrite - because your entire conversation has been utter rejection of what is written here in Romans. you rather think he is a liar instead.
as you wish. I not going to even try to explain something to someone that is to blind to see the plain text of Paul saying he followed the Law.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Yet sripture also shows my side or I wouldn't be saying it. Keep in mind Paul also keep the Law. Thats a hard one to get around.
Not hard to get around at all considering Paul tried to keep the law while being a pharisee of pharisees.
 

Rainrider

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Jun 17, 2017
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Not hard to get around at all considering Paul tried to keep the law while being a pharisee of pharisees.
Yet he also said the law is Holy, just, and good. He never said the law had no place in the lives of believers. That is if we keep his words in context with the whole of scripture.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Yet sripture also shows my side or I wouldn't be saying it. Keep in mind Paul also keep the Law. Thats a hard one to get around.
Of course he did. The argument isn't whether Christians obey the law. It's in whose strength: ours or God's.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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And His Torah tells us how to walk with him. So it is a valid law even today, just as sin is a valid part of life today. Also He does remove our sin. So yes He does forgive our sin. If not then our salvation is made of no account.
Again...there is no keeping of the law apart from Christ.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Almost forgot. I will always stand by the FACT that we are not dead. As before please read the following.
Rom 6:4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Last time I posted this passage you said I can play word games all I want. What you didn't say is that the WORD, Paul, Yeshua, and all say we are BORN again. Being born again is the exact opposite of being dead.
Jhn 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Mar 12:27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Not my word game, this is the Word speaking.
yup dead to the Law, alive to Christ.

Romans 7:4​
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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as you wish. I not going to even try to explain something to someone that is to blind to see the plain text of Paul saying he followed the Law.
he said we uphold the law, which is not what you said - that we are still under it and still condemned by it.

why wouldn't he seek to do what is good?

do you imagine that just because through Christ i am in no way whatsoever under the Law of the Sinai covenant with the nation of Israel, that i run around seeking to do evil all the time?
 
Sep 28, 2023
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the plain text of Paul saying he followed the Law.
Yeah, Paul was not following the OT law... he was following the Law of Christ!

In the New Testament, many mentions of “the law” is actually referring to Law of Christ (aka the Law of Liberty) and is not talking about the old testament law. Christians are NOT called to keep or live under the old testament law, but we ARE called to live under the Law of Christ.

Ultimately this means we are called to abide In Christ which is living after the Spirit and not after the flesh, or to be spiritually minded and not carnally minded (see Romans 8). As we see in Romans 8, to be spiritually minded is life and peace but to be carnally minded is death which is separation from the Lord.

Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Law of Christ
The phrase "the law of Christ" appears only in Galatians 6:2, although it is implied by the wording of 1 Corinthians 9:21 as well. In both places, its precise meaning is difficult to fix. In Galatians, Paul argues vigorously that the law given at Sinai makes no claim on those who believe in Christ, whether Gentile or Jew ( 2:15-21 ; Galatians 3:10-14 Galatians 3:23-26 ; 4:4-5 ; 4:21-5:6).

He then appeals to the Galatians to engage in ethical behavior by walking in the Spirit ( 5:16 Galatians 16 ), being lead by the Spirit ( 5:18 ), and fulfilling "the law of Christ" (ho nomos tou Christou) through bearing one another's burdens ( 6:2 ). In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul demonstrates how Christians should, out of love for the weaker brother or sister, refrain from demanding their rights.

By way of illustration Paul says in verses 19-23 that he adopts certain Jewish customs when among Jews, although he is not under the Jewish law, and that he adopts some Gentile customs when among Gentiles, although he is not without the law of God but rather "in the law of Christ" (ennomos Christou).
It seems fairly clear from these two texts that Paul uses the phrase to mean something other than the law given to Israel at Sinai and considered by most Jews to be their special possession.

Help is found in the prophets. In Isaiah 42:1-4 we read that God's chosen servant will one day establish justice throughout the earth and that "the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law" (NASB). If we take this passage to refer to the Messiah, then we could paraphrase it by saying that the Christ, when he comes, will teach God's law to the Gentiles ("the coastlands"). Jeremiah 31:31-34 similarly predicts the coming of a time in which disobedient Israel will receive a new covenant, consisting of a law written on the heart and therefore obeyed (cf. Ezek 36:26-27 ).

Jesus' teaching, although standing in continuity with the law given at Sinai, nevertheless sovereignly fashions a new law. In some instances Jesus sharpens commandments ( Matt 5:17-48 ) and in others considers them obsolete ( Mark 7:17-19 ). On one occasion, having been asked to identify the greatest commandment, Jesus concurs with the Jewish wisdom of his time ( Mark 12:32-33 ) that the greatest commandments are to love God supremely and to love one's neighbor as oneself ( Mark 12:28-31 ). He breaks with tradition, however, by defining the term "neighbor" to mean even the despised Samaritan ( Luke 10:29-37 ).
Paul believed that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ marked the beginning point of God's new covenant ( 2 Cor 3:1-18 ; Gal 4:21-31 ; cf. Rom 8:2 ). Like Isaiah, he believed that this covenant included the Gentiles ( Gal 3:7-20 ), and like Jeremiah he believed that it offered Israel a remedy for the curse that the old Sinaitic covenant pronounced on Israel's disobedience ( Gal 3:10-13 ).

In light of this, Paul may have understood the teaching of Christ as a new law. If so, then the correspondence between the ethical teaching of Jesus and Paul on many points (e.g., 1 Cor 7:10-11 / Mark 10:2-9 ; 1 Cor 9:14 / Luke 10:7 ; Rom 14:1-23 / Mark 7:18-19 ) is a matter of Paul's intention rather than happy accident. Paul's own admonition to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens provides both a pithy restatement of Jesus' summary of the law and an indication that Jesus' teaching fulfills prophetic expectations.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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yup dead to the Law, alive to Christ.

Romans 7:4​
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
How about we let HaShem judge us by our actions, and see how it works out.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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he said we uphold the law, which is not what you said - that we are still under it and still condemned by it.

why wouldn't he seek to do what is good?

do you imagine that just because through Christ i am in no way whatsoever under the Law of the Sinai covenant with the nation of Israel, that i run around seeking to do evil all the time?
As you wish
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
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How about we let HaShem judge us by our actions, and see how it works out.
by the deeds of the Law no one will be justified.

ain't gonna work out well.

those who are justified have life by faith - and the law is not of faith, but says "do" and live.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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by the deeds of the Law no one will be justified.

ain't gonna work out well.

those who are justified have life by faith - and the law is not of faith, but says "do" and live.
As you wish
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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this is what you say when you have no answer.
No it's what I say when I am done. As I have said many times, you have lost any credibility you may have had, so I feel it best to just move on.