How can one learn?

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Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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I didn't mean a heated discussion, but merely making cases for our positions.
As anyone knows a debate means both sides hear the other side out. As that is something that is not done on here, I may just move on, and do as I had before. Talk to myself, and if anyone reads it good on them.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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Yeah, Paul was not following the OT law... he was following the Law of Christ!

In the New Testament, many mentions of “the law” is actually referring to Law of Christ (aka the Law of Liberty) and is not talking about the old testament law. Christians are NOT called to keep or live under the old testament law, but we ARE called to live under the Law of Christ.

Ultimately this means we are called to abide In Christ which is living after the Spirit and not after the flesh, or to be spiritually minded and not carnally minded (see Romans 8). As we see in Romans 8, to be spiritually minded is life and peace but to be carnally minded is death which is separation from the Lord.

Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Law of Christ
The phrase "the law of Christ" appears only in Galatians 6:2, although it is implied by the wording of 1 Corinthians 9:21 as well. In both places, its precise meaning is difficult to fix. In Galatians, Paul argues vigorously that the law given at Sinai makes no claim on those who believe in Christ, whether Gentile or Jew ( 2:15-21 ; Galatians 3:10-14 Galatians 3:23-26 ; 4:4-5 ; 4:21-5:6).

He then appeals to the Galatians to engage in ethical behavior by walking in the Spirit ( 5:16 Galatians 16 ), being lead by the Spirit ( 5:18 ), and fulfilling "the law of Christ" (ho nomos tou Christou) through bearing one another's burdens ( 6:2 ). In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul demonstrates how Christians should, out of love for the weaker brother or sister, refrain from demanding their rights.

By way of illustration Paul says in verses 19-23 that he adopts certain Jewish customs when among Jews, although he is not under the Jewish law, and that he adopts some Gentile customs when among Gentiles, although he is not without the law of God but rather "in the law of Christ" (ennomos Christou).
It seems fairly clear from these two texts that Paul uses the phrase to mean something other than the law given to Israel at Sinai and considered by most Jews to be their special possession.

Help is found in the prophets. In Isaiah 42:1-4 we read that God's chosen servant will one day establish justice throughout the earth and that "the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law" (NASB). If we take this passage to refer to the Messiah, then we could paraphrase it by saying that the Christ, when he comes, will teach God's law to the Gentiles ("the coastlands"). Jeremiah 31:31-34 similarly predicts the coming of a time in which disobedient Israel will receive a new covenant, consisting of a law written on the heart and therefore obeyed (cf. Ezek 36:26-27 ).

Jesus' teaching, although standing in continuity with the law given at Sinai, nevertheless sovereignly fashions a new law. In some instances Jesus sharpens commandments ( Matt 5:17-48 ) and in others considers them obsolete ( Mark 7:17-19 ). On one occasion, having been asked to identify the greatest commandment, Jesus concurs with the Jewish wisdom of his time ( Mark 12:32-33 ) that the greatest commandments are to love God supremely and to love one's neighbor as oneself ( Mark 12:28-31 ). He breaks with tradition, however, by defining the term "neighbor" to mean even the despised Samaritan ( Luke 10:29-37 ).
Paul believed that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ marked the beginning point of God's new covenant ( 2 Cor 3:1-18 ; Gal 4:21-31 ; cf. Rom 8:2 ). Like Isaiah, he believed that this covenant included the Gentiles ( Gal 3:7-20 ), and like Jeremiah he believed that it offered Israel a remedy for the curse that the old Sinaitic covenant pronounced on Israel's disobedience ( Gal 3:10-13 ).

In light of this, Paul may have understood the teaching of Christ as a new law. If so, then the correspondence between the ethical teaching of Jesus and Paul on many points (e.g., 1 Cor 7:10-11 / Mark 10:2-9 ; 1 Cor 9:14 / Luke 10:7 ; Rom 14:1-23 / Mark 7:18-19 ) is a matter of Paul's intention rather than happy accident. Paul's own admonition to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens provides both a pithy restatement of Jesus' summary of the law and an indication that Jesus' teaching fulfills prophetic expectations.
So by all means explain why Yeshua would change the laws after making it clear He didn't come to do that. The Law that Yeshua used to correct those that stood against Him was Torah, He lived the Torah in His life, and said we should do the same. I am not going to beat a dead horse, so if you wish to go right ahead. My stand has remained the same for as long as I have been posting on here. I know that at some point your end goal is to see me leave. As that was clearly stated 5 years ago. As I am still here, one would think that you and others iike you would just move on. As to the title, I am sure by now that one can't learn under the frame work of attack, attack, belittle, attack, belittle. Oh you can say you didn't have a hand in that, and you may be right this time. Trust me in a one on one debate, you would not have a leg to stand on.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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in other words, you have no answer
what ever you wish to follow is fine by me. I will follow my understanding and you, along with an army of people just like you will not change it. So Yes I AM DONE. If you follow my off script you will find that I do have a rebuttal, I just made the choice to do so in a manner that is a lot more constructive. So I ask kindly that you stop with your faults accusations, thinly vailed as they may be. Take a stand and then take that to someone that follows your ideas. As I said, if my was to be changed it will not be by you, or any like you. So now go right ahade and make up what ever you want, I am done with you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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No it's what I say when I am done. As I have said many times, you have lost any credibility you may have had, so I feel it best to just move on.
yeah dismissing me under false accusations is also just you having no answer and looking for an out that saves your face and smears mine.

it's clear.

bro you ain't doing too well on "how can we learn"
your actions aren't the way.

saying this bluntly in order to teach you.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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As anyone knows a debate means both sides hear the other side out. As that is something that is not done on here, I may just move on, and do as I had before. Talk to myself, and if anyone reads it good on them.
You've been heard. The proof is in the replies. You may not like the answers, but the replies evidence that people have considered what you said and responded.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
87
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Off script
Rom 10:5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
From this passage some will say, "See told ya". Yet they will also follow the Torah so long as it fits their wishes. Ask them, is rap, murder, homosexuality, theft, adultery, lying, and so on sin? If they are honest they will say yes, but. Oddly the wod but negates everything that came before it. As we can see, Paul is calling the law righteous, Not a phrase one would use if they seen the law as something to avoid. So if a man does them, and lives by them are they living in sin? NO. You see Yeshua said,
Mat 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
As it stands not once has anyone turned to the words of the one who holds all athority to try and show that law has been removed. Odd really, as it is only through Yeshua that one can be saved, or turned away. Oddly I had asked someone once, Who has the most athority, Yeshua or Paul. The answer I got was Paul. If you want to find that, you will need to look back the threads I posted 5 years ago. If you do, you will find the same thing going on in them as you see here. Fear drives mankind to do everything they can to remove the thing they are scared of. Yet here I am, still doing my thing, and have not changed my understanding on the Law. So do any of you really think you can change it now?
Rom 10:4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
many times as we rad Paul, we find some odd things. As here, it would seem Paul was saying the law has been removed. That places Paul in direct conflict with Yeshua. As Yeshua told us in mat.5:18
Mat 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
We must also keep in mind that Yeshua had to live out the Torah perfectly to be our sacrifice for sin. Had He changed the Law, or removed it, He would be found guilty of sin. Why?
Deu 4:2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Most reject Torah as they have been told it was evil, and brings sin all their lives. Yet when one takes time to seek out the root of Torah, they find it is based on love, and trust.
I am a long way from done with this, so stick around. Reply if you wish, just understand, I am not going to be distracted from what I feel I have called here to do.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
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"how can we learn"

The actual topic of this thread.

we have to figure out how to respond to teachers that drive us crazy.

vanity and spite are not the right responses.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
113
As anyone knows a debate means both sides hear the other side out. As that is something that is not done on here, I may just move on, and do as I had before. Talk to myself, and if anyone reads it good on them.

you are demonstrating what is absolutely NOT the answer to "how can we learn"

dumping on the whole forum, considering yourself better than everyone.
deciding to ignore everyone because none of the Saints agree with you - but uphold what scripture says "we are not under the Law"

Not good, bro.

If the truth is that salvation means being under the Law and condemned by it, then you need to make that case, not just say we're all dumb and run away.

But if the truth is that salvation means we are set free from the Law and uncondemned, then you need to acknowledge the truth.

How do we learn?
we admit it when we are wrong.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
87
48
"how can we learn"

The actual topic of this thread.

we have to figure out how to respond to teachers that drive us crazy.

vanity and spite are not the right responses.
you are demonstrating what is absolutely NOT the answer to "how can we learn"

dumping on the whole forum, considering yourself better than everyone.
deciding to ignore everyone because none of the Saints agree with you - but uphold what scripture says "we are not under the Law"

Not good, bro.
You filled that to a tee. One can learn nothing from working both sides of the fence. As I have shown that you do just that, I see no reason to wast my time on it. Thanks anyway.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,703
13,516
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How do we teach?

we don't give up.
 
Sep 28, 2023
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How about we let HaShem judge us by our actions, and see how it works out.
It's OK to call Him... Jesus! thumbsup2.gif

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Using OT language does not make one closer to the Lord or do anything to further our spiritual growth in the Lord.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
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Previously discussed and demonstrated to be lying accusations.
Wrong, it is true you try to work both sides of the fence. See post #579 just to give one. So why I am done with you? Well there you go.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
87
48
It's OK to call Him... Jesus! View attachment 257609

John 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Using OT language does not make one closer to the Lord or do anything to further our spiritual growth in the Lord.
Nor does taking scripture out of context.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
87
48
Rom 9:32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Yes I know that no matter how many times I say it, I will be accused of trying to get to heaven by works alone. Some have used this passage to try and make their point. Yet as one looks at the whole of the word, it becomes clear that the stumblingstone is Yeshua. See Is. 7:14, 8:8, Mat. 1:23, Ps. 118:22Lk. 20:18, 1cor. 1:23, Gen. 49:24
Rom 9:31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Why was Israel unsuccessful in their endeavor? They failed to seek it out of trusting, faithfulness. It is only when one acts out of trusting faithfulness that they can find Shalom. Yes Shalom means peace, only it is much more than peace on earth. It is the peace placed in ones heart and mind when they turn to HaShem in trusting faithfulness, and from that they work to show their love by their works. What did Paul say?
Jas 2:18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
We must work to better ourselves, and walk in the Torah. Not to be saved, rather because we are saved. Then I have said this many times in this thread and others.
Rom 8:7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
In this passage we find that our own minds rebel against HaShem, as it wishes to be free of His law. To over come this, one must place their faith in HaShem, and fill their minds with His law. As I have said many times, we all sin. Even if one wishes to say we don't. Though that is a lie some tell themselves, deep down we know it isn't true. Why do you think those that understand this always ask for forgiveness? If sin is real, and counted against us, we seek forgiveness. After all 1John,3:4 and many other passages make it clear that sin is the transpiration of the Law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Wrong, it is true you try to work both sides of the fence. See post #579 just to give one. So why I am done with you? Well there you go.
false.

Hebrews 8:13 is not in conflict with James 2:10 or Matthew 5:18.

by saying your earthly body is wearing out but not fully passed away it does not mean that you have missing arms or legs.

your accusations against me are pure nonsense.