How can we uphold the law through faith? Romans 3:31

Pilgrimshope · Oct 14, 2021

“sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“through sanctification of the Spirit,”

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63

“unto obedience”

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Blik · Oct 14, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

But if you mean that Christ did not come for over 4,000 years after God created earth, that is not so. Christ was from the beginning. Salvation in the OT, for them, was through faith in what God told them about the forgiveness of sin.

Paul gives us examples of faith in the OT in Romans 4. The OT speaks of faith in Genesis 15: 6 "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness".

When God created the world, God said let there be light. That light was not the sun and moon that was created on the fourth day, the Hebrew word used the was translated as light meant all goodness. Law and order is part of all goodness. You cannot say one good is before another good, or that you know the timing of the creation of law and faith. It is part of light.

I also disagree with using one definition of law to the exclusion of all other definitions scripture gives us. The basic definition is given in Psalm 119:1: Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord.

walknlight · Oct 14, 2021

Hi!

Blik said:

Civil laws are to be followed, but are not a major concern for Christian thought.
Always be clear to separate Yahweh’s moral law from the religious/ceremonial culture of your day.
Whenever you read an Old Testament command, and you wonder if it applies today,
simply read the context and ask yourself what the Law is there for.
Yahweh has a general Moral Law to which we are all beholden, and a specific Ceremonial Law that the Jews were chosen to uphold.

God Bless!

walknlight · Oct 14, 2021

Hey Again!

Blik said:

What "law" did Abraham keep?

God Bless!

justbyfaith · Oct 14, 2021

walknlight said:

Yes, this is true.

The ceremonial law (such as all of the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament) has been fulfilled in Christ.

walknlight · Oct 14, 2021

Hi!

justbyfaith said:

And you wonder, those who are "keeping the law" , well..... keep the whole law....why are they not sacrificing animals?

or are they?

God Bless!

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

Blik said:

Good Question
Many people do not like this verse and twist it or ignore it completely because it upholding the law is something they can't incorporate in their belief.

the answer is simple.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
When you love Jesus the keeping of the law is not done to be saved and is not a burden. The law is done as a result of of your love for what Jesus has done and is to you.

Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Upholding the law is not done to be saved but a natural result of being saved. If you spend time with Jesus you slowly become more and more like Him.

GRACE_ambassador · Oct 14, 2021

Blik said:

justbyfaith said:

Precious friends, "faith" does Not uphold The Law; That's God's OPERATION,
And, For Today, In HIS "Revelation Of HIS MYSTERY {Rom - Phm} HE Says:

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are No Longer under a schoolmaster.

Thus, for the "righteous man, by faith" - he does Not uphold The Law, But:

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD, even in this;
Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. (cp Romans_13:8-10 KJB!)

"Simplicity In CHRIST," eh?:

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL to SEE, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

DavidTree · Oct 14, 2021

Blik said:

It is very Simple - religion and carnal minds complicate the Truth.

Salvation unto Eternal Life is THREE-fold

1.) Grace = by GRACE you are saved......not of works lest any man should boast

2.) Faith = by grace you are saved through FAITH, not of works lest any man should boast

3.) Works = For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

All THREE come from the Father and are cannot be earned - AMEN

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

True our works do not save us..... Us keeping the law does not save us..... this is plainly stated.

but the question is asked "do we then make void the law?"

No. We don't. That isn't a complicated answer it is plainly stated that the law is still valid today.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 7 below explains sin.....I had not known sin, but by the law:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It is simple = Salvation is a gift that is not earnt and we can not gain it by keeping the law. But because Jesus has done the work for us does not give us the right to be disobedient to the law and continue in sin.

justification comes by faith and sanctification is by faith also. Sanctification is the work of God in us, learning to obey the law more and more.

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

Satan doesn't care which side you take as long as you are not seeing the truth.

1. false truth = Saved by works and by keeping the law.. self righteousness.

2. False truth = You are saved by grace so works and the law are no longer valid.
The law in made void so we don't need to worry about works and sin, Jesus' grace will cover everything so don't worry about doing the right thing. Faith without works.

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul was without the law once. And many like to live without the law today because it points out our sinfulness and how corrupt we are. I would love to live without law.
No law = no sin = no guilt.
Sin = death = a need of Jesus and His Grace.

The law keeps me coming to Jesus for shelter in His Grace.

No law = no sin = no guilt = no need for grace.

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

DavidTree said:

It is very Simple - religion and carnal minds complicate the Truth.

Salvation unto Eternal Life is THREE-fold

1.) Grace = by GRACE you are saved......not of works lest any man should boast

2.) Faith = by grace you are saved through FAITH, not of works lest any man should boast

3.) Works = For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

All THREE come from the Father and are cannot be earned - AMEN

I agree..
So how does that apply to the law? is the law valid today or made void today?

DavidTree · Oct 14, 2021

TMS said:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

True our works do not save us..... Us keeping the law does not save us..... this is plainly stated.

but the question is asked "do we then make void the law?"

No. We don't. That isn't a complicated answer it is plainly stated that the law is still valid today.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Gal_2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 7 below explains sin.....I had not known sin, but by the law:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It is simple = Salvation is a gift that is not earnt and we can not gain it by keeping the law. But because Jesus has done the work for us does not give us the right to be disobedient to the law and continue in sin.

justification comes by faith and sanctification is by faith also. Sanctification is the work of God in us, learning to obey the law more and more.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Do you believe the Jew is saved by faith through circumcision?

Pilgrimshope · Oct 14, 2021

Blik said:

Jesus is eternal he is the creator by whom and for whom all things exist. He was not born in the flesh as a man until the appointed time of the “Christ “ and his gospel .

God is eternal his plan was from the beginning to restore us to our God given place at his side ruling over the earth in his Will and guidance. The first Thing you have to do to show someone salvstion is to show them what it is they need saving from .

the law given to Moses was of God no question but it’s intent is not the same as The gospel the law does this for all mankind

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:

for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

think of the law of Moses and it’s 10 part covenant command spoken by God from Sinai.

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now Moses law later under the angel after they transgressed with the calf says

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭

you have Moses law that repetitively says “ adulterers must surely be witnessed against by at least two to have committed the sin and then the whole group was to gather and stone the adulterers to death. It’s because of this often overlooked truth about the law

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this leaves any and all repentant sinners being put to death for every sin they commit from adultery to sabbath breaking like this poor man based upon the hands of the others

“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭15:32-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we understand this is not Jesus Christ’s judgement that was before the law and after the law in the gospel of Gods word and promises Jesus judgement is more like this

“And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:3-12‬ ‭

That’s a different law from Moses , Moses was to show no pity for sinners “you must witness against , judge and execute them by this law to keep everyone holy “

Jesus turned the judgemental part of them to their own selves looking for sin and they realized they had sinned also at some point and weren’t worthy to judge and condemn other sinners and left himself alone with the sinner and he dealt with her his way that leads to salvation rather than a brutal death and curse in the grave

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

DavidTree said:

As long as the deed is done through faith, in faith and by faith the person is right in God. But faith is not blind.

DavidTree · Oct 14, 2021

TMS said:

FALSE
This would be salvation through works according to the deeds of the flesh. It failed them for years and years and years.

justbyfaith · Oct 14, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

Precious friends, "faith" does Not uphold The Law; That's God's OPERATION,
And, For Today, In HIS "Revelation Of HIS MYSTERY {Rom - Phm} HE Says:

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are No Longer under a schoolmaster.

Thus, for the "righteous man, by faith" - he does Not uphold The Law, But:

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD, even in this;
Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. (cp Romans_13:8-10 KJB!)

"Simplicity In CHRIST," eh?:

(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mysteryfellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL to SEE, today?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!

Very simply, faith upholds the law, as a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ, so that other men may also come to faith in Christ.

Pilgrimshope · Oct 14, 2021

TMS said:

you saying we learn to obey Moses law for sinners more And more ?

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-

we arent part of the old broken covenant made with Israel by Moses and angels

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

probably why the apostles all
Agreed early on that it’s not part of Christian doctrine

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

….For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:24, 28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s just not Christian doctrine but is great for study and learning about Christ and the New Testament but we aren’t meant to go back to that law it’s not for born again folks

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we can’t be those kind of people anymore so we don’t need a law made for those folks no value for these folks

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3, 5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

one testament is about new life having our sins remitted through repentance and belief of the gospel. The other is made for the old sinful person if we’re still that type of person inside we need the law I suppose but we have to change and come into the gospel

“If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;( this guy needs the law )

And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭

but that’s what believing the gospel does new life new mind and heart because we started hearing and believing the right doctrine . It changes how we think and how we act and live is able to change

TMS · Oct 14, 2021

DavidTree said:

Explain,
Faith without works is dead.
Faith that is blind isn't real faith but presumption. Abraham was saved by faith but he had many deeds that showed his faith.
By faith we do good works. By faith we obey the law, and that does not earn us salvation it is the fruit of our love for God.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

DavidTree · Oct 14, 2021

TMS said:

1.) GRACE 2.) FAITH 3.) WORKS

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
not of works, lest anyone should boast = (Jews & Law & Religion)
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

How can we uphold the law through faith? Romans 3:31

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