How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so.'

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GreenNnice

Guest
#1
How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so.'

How so?

This speaks of those 'saved,' His 'sheep,' those, being any one who has having chosen Him as his'/her's personal Saviour when called by Him. (Revelation, as well as books of The Gospel, make His 'called' clear).

Can evil, through Satan's directing, overtake His (own) in a blind moment of God's eyes not on us, or, must God APPROVE?
So, can Satan destroy His (God's) own on Satan's own agenda, or, do we STAY on planet Earth until God says it is time for us to die and be with Him?
 
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Moe

Guest
#2
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Are you trying to tell me that my God is Blind?! He has His eyes on His flock 24/7..You need to re think or re write your question...Cheers
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#3
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

In the bible, God allowed Satan to attack Job but did not allow Satan to take away his life. Satan has no power over what God has ordained and none of his efforts will prevail over God's plan for His children.
 
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Kyouken01

Guest
#4
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

I've heard that we all have at least, like, 70 years guaranteed or something like that, but I've not read it and I didn't ask where to find it.

Personally, I believe that Satan could snuff us out with sickness, murder, etc., but I also believe that God will protect us if we trust Him to do so.

If God did have a certain date for us, and we wanted to die sooner than God had wanted, we could do that too (but who the heck would want to?).
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
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#5
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

How so?

This speaks of those 'saved,' His 'sheep,' those, being any one who has having chosen Him as his'/her's personal Saviour when called by Him. (Revelation, as well as books of The Gospel, make His 'called' clear).

Can evil, through Satan's directing, overtake His (own) in a blind moment of God's eyes not on us, or, must God APPROVE?
So, can Satan destroy His (God's) own on Satan's own agenda, or, do we STAY on planet Earth until God says it is time for us to die and be with Him?
Predestination is a misinterpretation of the Bible. The Lord has a plan for each of us, IF we do things his way.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
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#6
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

In the bible, God allowed Satan to attack Job but did not allow Satan to take away his life. Satan has no power over what God has ordained and none of his efforts will prevail over God's plan for His children.
You are absolutely right and we don't even want to give Satan a place or opportunity in our life to even try it or think he has a chance to be successful. He may try to hinder us and sift us as he did Peter, but the Lord prayed for Peter that his faith fail not. We are to keep ourselves in the love of God and build ourselves up in the faith that we have been given through the word.
 
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Catfish

Guest
#7
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

I would like to add that you can't blame everything on the devil, at least moma is not going to let you(and God neither). When I was younger, moma baked a cake and put it on the table, and told me not to touch it, she left the room and went outside. The temptation was more than I could take. There was also a saying back then, "The devil made me do it", When Moma came back inside, I told her "the devil made me do it," She didn't fall for that. The devil missed out on that time of well deserved correction, lol. The next time she left out a cake she didn't have to worry about me touching it.

Temptation, is it coming from the devil, or is it something that is of someone's own desires? Either way, it is still your choice whether to follow through with it or not.

Conquering/dealing with temptation can be like christian weightlifting. The more you resist, the stronger you get. To have the heart that loves God more than itself is the goal, and God does likewise.

 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#8
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Predestination is a misinterpretation of the Bible. The Lord has a plan for each of us, IF we do things his way.
Predestination is biblical so is the fact that God is almighty. You must be talking about another book.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#9
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

its the emergent hermenutic.....lets play fit the bible into my belief.
with practice you can get good at it.

Yesterday i heard someone say..."God cant go against man or angels free will"
I didnt want to break up the happiness there with scripture. But i did wonder how
such an idea got so popular. "Cant" seemed like a pretty big word.

One another day i simply read 5 verses from Romans 5....with no commentary...
and a fella jumped on the mic and said....you must be a calvanist.

Haha...its just funny sometimes. :)
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#10
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

I would like to add that you can't blame everything on the devil, at least moma is not going to let you(and God neither). When I was younger, moma baked a cake and put it on the table, and told me not to touch it, she left the room and went outside. The temptation was more than I could take. There was also a saying back then, "The devil made me do it", When Moma came back inside, I told her "the devil made me do it," She didn't fall for that. The devil missed out on that time of well deserved correction, lol. The next time she left out a cake she didn't have to worry about me touching it.

Temptation, is it coming from the devil, or is it something that is of someone's own desires? Either way, it is still your choice whether to follow through with it or not.

Conquering/dealing with temptation can be like christian weightlifting. The more you resist, the stronger you get. To have the heart that loves God more than itself is the goal, and God does likewise.

Predestination is biblical so is the fact that God is almighty. You must be talking about another book.
Those whom He called He has predestined, tribers, and.....

...God calls every one of us to Him , through being drawn, dragged, hitting bottom (in life.)

This theme runs clearly through the Word of God as His speakers clearly show the universalism of 'free will,' even though those two words are not in His words of men inspiringly speaking His ways and regulations and mandations and manifestations throughout.

Like Rez says, He has a plan for 'you,' and ' is not exclusive of any one tribe or race or believing a certain denomination's ways. They (the person drawn) MUST simply whole-beingly believe God is God and they will NOT die until His time and His plan for them ceases as they are transferred from body to soul to be with Him, spiritedly living in Him, forevermore :)

God knew what we would be doing from the time BEFORE each and every one of us was in the womb.

Predestination speaks of our great God who has called ALL to hear His great ways, and, one day the angels will be shouting the gospel over and over throughout the Earth and those not hearing, with their ears and believing, will be destined to the lake of fire.

God, just like He gives every human free choice to become a part of those pre-destined in Him, IS in control of His sheep individual lives, and, things, like 911, do NOT happen unless God is in complete control of the end. Like Starryfields said, Job was tormented but not killed, and, this per God's divine sovereignty.

Satan CAN 'destroy' our body, but cannot 'kill' our 'soul.' But, again, Satan CAN only do this with God's knowing, understanding, and, most important to remember, His allowing. God is creator, ruler of everything.

There is NOTHING impossible with God. All things ARE possible with God.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,621
281
83
#11
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

...Yesterday i heard someone say..."God cant go against man or angels free will"
I didnt want to break up the happiness there with scripture. But i did wonder how
such an idea got so popular. "Cant" seemed like a pretty big word..
Tragicomic at best. It stems from a most horrific thinking: God HAS to work this particular way and man HAS to have a say in it...else... I shudder at this lust for control.
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#12
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

its the emergent hermenutic.....lets play fit the bible into my belief.
with practice you can get good at it.

Yesterday i heard someone say..."God cant go against man or angels free will"
I didnt want to break up the happiness there with scripture. But i did wonder how
such an idea got so popular. "Cant" seemed like a pretty big word.

One another day i simply read 5 verses from Romans 5....with no commentary...
and a fella jumped on the mic and said....you must be a calvanist.

Haha...its just funny sometimes. :)
Hey Abiding,

You're right of course. Many people do not use a consistent hermeneutic for the entire bible, instead adapting their hermenutic so as not to offend their already existing beliefs in which they have much emotion invested. But you are being unfair if you wish to imply that only those promoting free will are guilty of this. If you wish to be completely fair, there are biblical verses that, taken even in the immediate context, will support both positions. That is why this has been a raging controversy for many years.

As such, I have taken a position of basing my beliefs on what I know about God's nature, which he has revealed to us through Scripture. The following is a posting of mine reprinted from another thread. What is your opinion on this?


No one questions God's authority to do whatever he wishes. However, some people have a false view of God's omnipotence. God's omnipotence means that he can do only those things that are consistent with his nature and reasonable. God cannot create a five sided triangle, for example. God cannot lie or break a promise. God cannot cease to exist.

God's laws are not arbritrary. He cannot decide one day to make a law that everyone is to hate everyone else. His laws are a reflection of his nature. His laws are good, because God is good.


We can argue this or that scripture all day long and get nowhere. However, God has revealed his nature to us in the Scriptures. We know him to be a God of righteousness. We, who are created in his image, have been endowed with the ability to understand that nature by observing his acts in history, studying his laws, and especially in his works of redemption by revealing himself fully in his son Jesus Christ.

Calvinists would have us [saved Christians] believe that we know nothing of God's nature even after it was revealed fully in Jesus Christ! And so we are to accept their views which contradict that nature because "we do not know an infinite God". Incredible!! God has made himself known to us!!

How is it consistent with what we know of God's nature to think that he would create men with the express purpose of sending them to hell? Hell was not even created for man, it was created for Satan and his angels, Mat. 25:41. The bible is clear that God does not wish for anyone to go there. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all men, but we must accept the free gift when is is made known to us and offered to us. Holy Spirit uses God's word found in the Scriptures to make God's redemption known to us. But we must enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ in order to receive that redemption. We who were dead in sin become alive in Christ!! However, a loving relationship can never be had unless both parties are free to give that love willingly.

How is it that Calvinists are comfortable with the idea that children who die before the age of accountability are still saved, but those who have reached that age and rejected God's salvation will be sent to hell? What then does the age of accountability represent? Is it not the age at which we can make a conscious decision based on free will?

Do you allow your dependent children to make decisions in their lives? Are you giving up your sovereignty by allowing them some autonomy? Would you micromanage their lives and make every decision for them and if so would they ever grow and mature into responsible adults? Would you be happy if their love for you resulted because they had no choice but to love you? Or would you rather that their love was a result of their own free will? How can we ever expect to understand God's love for us, if we cannot understand the love that exists within our own families?

How do we explain the process of sanctification? Why is it necessary for us to grow into spiritual maturity? If God is in control of every decision that we make, then after we are saved we should never sin again. And yet we do. All of us.

How would we ever be able to attain spiritual maturity if not allowed autonomous free will to make mistakes and learn from them?
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#13
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Hey Abiding,

You're right of course. Many people do not use a consistent hermeneutic for the entire bible, instead adapting their hermenutic so as not to offend their already existing beliefs in which they have much emotion invested. But you are being unfair if you wish to imply that only those promoting free will are guilty of this. If you wish to be completely fair, there are biblical verses that, taken even in the immediate context, will support both positions. That is why this has been a raging controversy for many years.

As such, I have taken a position of basing my beliefs on what I know about God's nature, which he has revealed to us through Scripture. The following is a posting of mine reprinted from another thread. What is your opinion on this?


No one questions God's authority to do whatever he wishes. However, some people have a false view of God's omnipotence. God's omnipotence means that he can do only those things that are consistent with his nature and reasonable. God cannot create a five sided triangle, for example. God cannot lie or break a promise. God cannot cease to exist.

God's laws are not arbritrary. He cannot decide one day to make a law that everyone is to hate everyone else. His laws are a reflection of his nature. His laws are good, because God is good.


We can argue this or that scripture all day long and get nowhere. However, God has revealed his nature to us in the Scriptures. We know him to be a God of righteousness. We, who are created in his image, have been endowed with the ability to understand that nature by observing his acts in history, studying his laws, and especially in his works of redemption by revealing himself fully in his son Jesus Christ.

Calvinists would have us [saved Christians] believe that we know nothing of God's nature even after it was revealed fully in Jesus Christ! And so we are to accept their views which contradict that nature because "we do not know an infinite God". Incredible!! God has made himself known to us!!

How is it consistent with what we know of God's nature to think that he would create men with the express purpose of sending them to hell? Hell was not even created for man, it was created for Satan and his angels, Mat. 25:41. The bible is clear that God does not wish for anyone to go there. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all men, but we must accept the free gift when is is made known to us and offered to us. Holy Spirit uses God's word found in the Scriptures to make God's redemption known to us. But we must enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ in order to receive that redemption. We who were dead in sin become alive in Christ!! However, a loving relationship can never be had unless both parties are free to give that love willingly.

How is it that Calvinists are comfortable with the idea that children who die before the age of accountability are still saved, but those who have reached that age and rejected God's salvation will be sent to hell? What then does the age of accountability represent? Is it not the age at which we can make a conscious decision based on free will?

Do you allow your dependent children to make decisions in their lives? Are you giving up your sovereignty by allowing them some autonomy? Would you micromanage their lives and make every decision for them and if so would they ever grow and mature into responsible adults? Would you be happy if their love for you resulted because they had no choice but to love you? Or would you rather that their love was a result of their own free will? How can we ever expect to understand God's love for us, if we cannot understand the love that exists within our own families?

How do we explain the process of sanctification? Why is it necessary for us to grow into spiritual maturity? If God is in control of every decision that we make, then after we are saved we should never sin again. And yet we do. All of us.

How would we ever be able to attain spiritual maturity if not allowed autonomous free will to make mistakes and learn from them?
Well....if i was unfair as you said...it was only in my lack of info...since it was simply a glib remark.

Im in no way a calvinist...that was where i found it humorious to be called one by simply reading a text.

Although im not against most of what calvinists say...to most of them im a heritic.

Still tho to say God cant go against mans freewill is not biblical at all....example..Jonah...several others.

Unfortunatly these crazy doctrines seem to be put as the foundation of a persons life and not so much just
a small backburner issue.

Example what good would it do for Him to discipline us if He cant change(or go against) our will? Is this why so many
blame every uncomfortable thing on satan? Ending up by wrong doctrine resisting God and fleeing to the devil.

I havnt said anything on the freewill issue. Because it never gets defined..and hardly ever ends up changing
anything but driving people further into their own belief.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
#14
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Well....if i was unfair as you said...it was only in my lack of info...since it was simply a glib remark.

Im in no way a calvinist...that was where i found it humorious to be called one by simply reading a text.

Although im not against most of what calvinists say...to most of them im a heritic.

Still tho to say God cant go against mans freewill is not biblical at all....example..Jonah...several others.

Unfortunatly these crazy doctrines seem to be put as the foundation of a persons life and not so much just
a small backburner issue.

Example what good would it do for Him to discipline us if He cant change(or go against) our will? Is this why so many
blame every uncomfortable thing on satan? Ending up by wrong doctrine resisting God and fleeing to the devil.

I havnt said anything on the freewill issue. Because it never gets defined..and hardly ever ends up changing
anything but driving people further into their own belief.
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
#15
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

:p WHY DON'T WE ASK THE LITTLE SQUIRREL THAT CAME ALONG WITH YOU.:D
 

superdave5221

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
1,409
31
48
#16
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Well....if i was unfair as you said...it was only in my lack of info...since it was simply a glib remark.

I qualified that remark by saying that "if you wish to imply", therefore it is a conditional statement. If you were not implying X, then you were not being unfair.

Im in no way a calvinist...that was where i found it humorious to be called one by simply reading a text.

I didn't find it humorious that in a previous thread I was lumped into a stereotyped "free willer" category without even an attempt to understand what my beliefs were. Humanists were also thrown into the group with me. The person of which I am speaking even questioned everyone in the stereotyped group's relationship with God, which he had no right to do. So you see, Calvinists are guilty of this as well.

Although im not against most of what calvinists say...to most of them im a heritic.

Still tho to say God cant go against mans freewill is not biblical at all....example..Jonah...several others.

God can indeed influence our decisions in many ways for his providential means but in the end he will never force us into a loving relationship with him.

Unfortunatly these crazy doctrines seem to be put as the foundation of a persons life and not so much just
a small backburner issue.

It wasn't such a backburner issue for me, because it lead me to consider God's nature and stimulated a greater understanding of who God is. A relationship is based on love and understanding, and so the better I understand God, the stronger my relationship is with him.

Example what good would it do for Him to discipline us if He cant change(or go against) our will? Is this why so many
blame every uncomfortable thing on satan? Ending up by wrong doctrine resisting God and fleeing to the devil.

There was an old comedian, I believe it was Flip Wilson, who used to say, "The devil made me do it". The Calvinists have a similar saying, "God made me do it". Either way, it takes the accountability away from the individual, and makes God's judgement according to his nature impossible.

I havnt said anything on the freewill issue. Because it never gets defined..and hardly ever ends up changing
anything but driving people further into their own belief.
We must speak the truth, as we understand it, and leave the convincing up to Holy Spirit.
 
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Catfish

Guest
#17
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Matt 26:39
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

I am sure that you guys have seen this verse of course, I think He said this out of sorrow, had he known about predestination this would have never been said. Or, it could be argued for predestination in the sense that He knows that He has to go through with it, or else. To me, it means that he asked the Father if it is possible to change His will for a second, then Jesus' realizing that this is or would be selfish and out of Jesus' love for us corrected Himself. And, If you throw free will into the equation then, what the verse equals is love, John 3:16.

 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,260
6,546
113
#18
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

As a very young child, I had a waking vision upon my bed. I do not put much stock in visions, mine or anyone else's if it is not written in the Good Book. But since it was harmless, and encouraging somehow, I have always remembered it. Your post title brought it to mind.
I saw a bottomless chasm rifting in two the land with all the souls that are, were and ever will be hovering on one side. It was very dark. All the souls seemed to be wondering about a wee small light across the chasm. Looking at the light brought the realization that in faith one could cross the chasm and be in the light. All of this was occurring as before birth, at least my own. I knew to believe faith would get me across, and this vision, although not from the Good Book, has always strengthened my own resolve in Yeshua, Jesus. I was seven at the time, and I said nothing to anyone about it for over 50 years.
I pray this is not offensive to anyone. God bless all in Yeshua, amen.
 
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#19
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

Jesus Christ was the only one predestinated by the Father and we are predestinated in Christ when we believe. There is no separate predestination for any sinner that occurred before the foundation of the world or being not yet born having neither done good or evil (Rom 9:11). The foreknowledge of God looked upon His Son toward the work of redemption to redeemed a people for Himself (Titus 2:14) and those who would believe were included in that foreknowledge being hid with Christ in God (Eph 3:9-11, Col 3:3). God calls according to grace (2Tim 1:9) and those who respond to that grace are chosen in the one who is elect and precious (1Pt 1:2, Rom 8:33, Mt 2:14, 1Pt 2:6)...

1Pt 2:5-10

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (the same goes for those who are disobedient, who stumble at the word and are appointed to being confounded)
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; (this is based upon those that believed on Him in verse 6,7)
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


Eph 1:4-12 (for those who have believed)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (God did not appoint us to believe, but He did appoint us to be holy and without blame when we do believe)
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (predestination comes through Jesus Christ, God's Son when we believe)
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#20
Re: How do 'predestination' & 'free will' tie into 'You do NOT die until God says so

We must speak the truth, as we understand it, and leave the convincing up to Holy Spirit.
Well i hope it wasnt me that made you feel any type of stuffing you into a namegroup because i didnt even
read any of your posts. I happen to agree with all youve said tho.

I agree we should be ready to speak the truth at all times....but i dont agree we must.

One of my favorite quotes from Jesus in the bible is............And He held His peace.