How long is the tribulation?

Spurgeoncy · Jan 16, 2017

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

All this means is that the Old Covenant had finished and the New Covenant had begun.

Ahwatukee · Jan 16, 2017

Hello samuel23,

In keeping with proper grammar, when Jesus said "this generation will not pass away" he was not referring his current generation, but to the generation where all of those signs begin to take place, which would take place in that last generation leading up to his return to the earth to end the age. The tribulation period will be dominated by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and so it is still future. Neither has the tribulation for Israel taken place, which happens during that last 3 1/2 known as the great tribulation.

Once the church has been gathered, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed, which is represented by the rider on the white horse at the 1st seal and from there the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will follow, leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

Spurgeoncy · Jan 16, 2017

Scofield wrote his convoluted claptrap 200 years ago and it has now passed into Church lore, and people like yourself blindly parrot it ad nauseam, in defiance of all simple explanations and expositions.

Matthew 24:2
And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?

Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:33-34
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

36 But of that day and hour

Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Simply establish the this and that, the these and those, according to simple grammar, and it is clear what Jesus is saying.

These things:

1) The Temple
2) The Levitical System
3) The Jewish Identity As Holders of the Israelite Identity and Special Role
4) False Christs, Wars & Rumours of Wars
5) All the events leading up to AD 73

That/Those (Things):

1) The return of Christ.

These things are all clearly time stamped and explained, and refer solely to the events in Judea and Jerusalem in the 40 years after Jesus' Crucifixion.

All we know about Christ's return is that it transpires 2000 years plus after his crucifixion.

garee · Jan 16, 2017

Ahwatukee said:

He was referring to the generation of Christ, as those born again.. The genealogy ends with Christ, just as it begins with the Alpha and Omega.

The tribulation, or trouble of Jacob began when the veil was rent. The beginning of the last days, the thousand years as a metaphorical number no man could count.

It is when Satan fell , being bound here as if they were chains , never to enter into the assemble with other angels who did not leave their first place of habitation..

It sent the unbelieving Jews (no faith) who were used temporally as shadows and types into confusion when they were cut off at the time of refomation.. Seeing there no longer remained the need of an outward appearance to be used as the pagans do .

Ahwatukee · Jan 16, 2017

As I have continued to make clear whenever people attempt to give credit to Scofield, Darby or anyone else for my knowledge of scripture, I remind them that I am not a follower of them nor have I read anything by them. My studies are my own and no one can take credit for them.

"These things" were all of the signs that Jesus said would take place leading up to his return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which has yet to be fulfilled. Prior to His return, all of those signs must take place, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the plagues of God's coming wrath. The generation that the Lord was speaking of was the generation where those signs take place with the majority of them referring to the last generation.

The Lord's promises are to the entire church. Therefore, you can't have Christ returning at the destruction of the temple, because it would leave the majority of the church, which is still in the process of being built, out of those promises. And you would also have no fulfillment of God's wrath which must take place first.

The other on-going problem with expositors, is not recognizing that the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as being two separate prophesies. When you look at them as the same event, then all other end-time events will be distorted.

garee · Jan 16, 2017

Spurgeoncy said:

Good point. Failure to distinguish the "things of God" (the eternal not seen) from "those of men" (cerimoinal laws,temporal that seen ) is where the antichrist Satan (singular) gets his foot in the door and moves by influencing the antichrists (many) to perform his will, as the god of this world.

Things of God ,the generation of Christ must be distinguished from the generation of Adam the "things of men" . It is that generation (the seed of Christ) that will not pass away until the last one is called heavenward.

You could say the in the same way His perfect law of love in respect to His gospel of peace will not pass away .

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

PlainWord · Jan 16, 2017

GaryA said:

I respectfully disagree. First let's remember where they were and why:

2 Chronicles 36:21

to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.

They were in Babylon having been punished for not allowing the Land to rest, among other reasons. The punishment was to last 70 years.

Now, please start back at the beginning of Dan 9. Look at the thrust of the passage. Daniel is begging for forgiveness and mercy for his people.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him.

...therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

Now please note this verse:

...all this disaster has come upon us; yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth...

Daniel is obviously telling God that he understands why they are being punished and acknowledges that they (his people) have not sought forgiveness. The key message is they did not pray that they would turn from their iniquities. Keep "iniquities" in mind.

I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers...for we do not present our supplications before You because of our righteous deeds, but because of Your great mercies...Your own sake, my God, for Your city and Your people are called by Your name.”

So Daniel is clearly requesting that they be forgiven, not because they've changed and turned to righteousness, but because of God's mercy and because of His covenant and because they and their city are called by His name. God heard his prayer and sent Gabriel to convey His response. Remember, Daniel confessed and asked for forgiveness for his people, but there was no change in their behavior. In fact when they returned, the religious leaders instituted 500 new Sabbath laws thinking, "we aren't going to do that again." Christ butted heads with them over their legalistic Sabbath laws which imposed far greater restrictions than the law God gave Moses.

The point is, asking for forgiveness is one thing, but it is no good if the sinful behavior doesn't change. So my view is correct. Seventy weeks (70 x 7) were determined for Daniel's people and city (Jerusalem) to "shape up" and "fly straight." They had 69 x 7 weeks to get their act together before Messiah, the Anointed One, would arrive. But God is God and knows everything. He knew they would not change and told Daniel that they would kill Messiah and the punishment they would get as a result.

Jesus says that we are to forgive our brother his sins up to 70 x 7 if he asks and repents but keeps doing the sin.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Look at the question posed by Peter!! At this point if the behavior doesn't change, its time for punishment. That was Jesus' message in Mat 18 and He clearly was thinking of Dan 9 when He said it because He was a big part of the plan of Dan 9. God was giving the Jews 70 x 7 years to change their ways. They offered sin sacrifices every day but never changed their behavior. When Messiah was cut off at Week 69.5 that was the last straw. The veil was torn. God turned His back on them and refused their sacrifices or to hear their voice. Judgment was already pre-determined.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

He gave them an extra 35-40 years to hear the Gospel so that some would be spared then unleashed the worst Tribulation against a nation that the planet would ever see. Leading up to the final assault of AD 70, the Jews were fighting so bad among themselves that they were murdering each other in the Temple. See Josephus. THE GREAT SLAUGHTERS AND SACRILEGE THAT WERE IN JERUSALEM.

PlainWord · Jan 16, 2017

samuel23 said:

This is the very reason why it took me so long to conclude that the Great Tribulation happened in AD 66-70, because Christ didn't return immediately after. Now Zone states that Josephus claimed there were chariots flying around in the sky and trumpets sounding, etc. I haven't found that passage from Josephus yet so I remain very skeptical that Christ returned back then. No, there has to be another explanation and I think I'm on to it.

If you notice Matthew and Mark's account are very similar. Although neither were there when the question was asked or answered, they give us the account second hand. Luke, who also wasn't there and gives his account also second handed, breaks the Matthew and Mark version in two. Part of it is in Chapter 17 and the rest in Chapter 21. Luke 21 doesn't say anything about Christ coming "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

Christ specifically teaches that we Christians will have tribulation in this world. This message is repeated often by especially John and Paul. Perhaps Jesus was referencing this tribulation and not the "great tribulation" He was discussing concerning Israel?

Ahwatukee · Jan 16, 2017

As I said, no he wasn't referring to the generation that he was speaking from. If that were true, we would currently have already gone through the thousand year reign of Christ, Satan's last rebellion and the great white throne judgment. I would also say that you need to go back to English 101. Below is the scripture:

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

The example is that, in the same way that you can know that summer is near because the trees are blossoming, when you see all of those signs begin to take place, then you can know that the end of the age is near. Therefore, it is those signs that determine that the end of the age. By your claim that the generation that Jesus was speaking of was the one that he was living in, you take the focus off of the signs and force them into his generation and that without any fulfillment.

Daniel 9:27 states that the ruler/antichrist, makes a seven year agreement. In the middle of that seven years he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up the abomination that causes the desolation of Jerusalem/Judea. Regarding this, in Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding the abomination, which marks the middle of the seven years. Matt.24:29-31 is a description of Jesus return to the earth to end the age, which takes place 3 1/2 years after the setting up of the abomination. Jesus return in Matt.24:29-31 is also synonymous with Rev.19:11-21. That said, in order for Jesus to have returned, every eye would have had to have seen him, the angels would have gathered the tares and the wheat, the beast and the false prophet would have been captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan would have been seized and thrown into and restricted in the Abyss for a thousand years. Needless to say, not of those events have taken place yet. Not one!

No, the tribulation did not begin when the veil of the holy of hollies was torn. Jesus makes it very clear that the great tribulation begins from when the abomination is set up until 3 1/2 years later when he returns to the earth to end the age. Which again, is still a future event.

The thousand years is literal, for scripture states six times the words "a thousand years." Instead of believing what the scripture actually says, in order to support your belief you have to distort the truth by making the thousand years a metaphor. However, the truth of the matter is that, scripture states clearly "a thousand years." Regarding this, there is nothing in the scripture that would lead the reader to apply any other meaning than the literal.

Once again, no! After Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21, which takes place after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. At that time an angel is literally going seize Satan and throw him into the Abyss and lock and seal it over him, where he will be restricted during that literal thousand years so that he has no exposure at all to the inhabitants of the earth at all. Why don't you try actually believing what you are reading instead of just applying a symbolic or metaphoric interpretation.

garee · Jan 16, 2017

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

It’s all one prophecy.”the last day “ the second resurrection, and judgment day, the earth and heaven will vanish all in the twinkling of the eye...Christ will not establish a outward reign on this sin filled corrupted earth and heavens.

2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist

Is come not will come again the flesh

There will be no second coming in the flesh as if God was man as us. He remains without mother or father beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

He will not appear in the flesh a second time. Last time leads to the last day .(the second and final resurrection.)

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

By teaching other Christ the Holy Spirit of God must put on flesh again as another demonstration simply denies that He is the Christ, the anointing one. He has come as the Son of man (temporal flesh)

2Co 4:18 While we look not at "the things" which are seen, but at the "things which are not seen": for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

This would be subjecting Christ over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough. Better things accompany salvation.

There is no prophecy that states he will come again in the temporal flesh .God is not a man as us and neither is there a daysman (outward as that seen of the flesh a infallible mediator) between God and man . The Son of man in respect to his flesh seen refused any kind of worship as to that which was seen.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 1Jo 2:22

Again the veil is rent indicating Christ has come. Looking for a fleshly God, gives Satan a hope .

PlainWord · Jan 16, 2017

GaryA said:

Disregard my last post. I found the answer. It isn't ongoing Tribulation that gets worse, it's wrath Tribulation that is poured out when Christ is revealed from heaven. It's not when He returns but it's when He's revealed. Remember, "sit at my right hand until...?"

The break from AD 70 to the future comes here between verse 26 and 27. Everything before and including verse 26 belongs to AD 70 events, everything after and including verse 27 belongs to the future Second Coming.:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

----------------------2,000+ YEAR BREAK!-------------------------

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened...

I'm sure you are going to disagree Gary

but consider this.

Paul tells us in 2 Thes 1 that God repays with Tribulation those who are evil WHEN?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, [SUP]7 [/SUP]and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, [SUP]8 [/SUP]in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God...

Luke repeats this in 17:

...it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed...

Again, it's when the Son of Man is revealed but BEFORE HE ACTUALLY RETURNS. So what happens when the Son of Man is revealed but before He returns? Let's continue in Luke 17 because he gives the answer:

...[SUP]31 [/SUP]“In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. [SUP]32 [/SUP]Remember Lot’s wife. [SUP]33 [/SUP]Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. [SUP]34 [/SUP]I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.

In that day, the DAY CHRIST IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN they are taken. Where to, his disciples ask?

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Piece this back into Mat 24:28. Rev 19 tells us where the eagles are gathered.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

This is the GREAT DAY OF GOD'S WRATH, AKA the Tribulation which comes immediately before Christ returns as He says in Mat 24.

garee · Jan 16, 2017

The fig tree is a metaphor for the temporal use of the flesh, as shadows and types. It was cut off at the time of reformation. He said, grow no more fruit.

What time period to you think it was restored to?

The ceremonial laws as parables that were used to preach the gospel of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow .The renting of the veil, the graves as metaphors were opened and the old testament born again Jews entered the holy city the new Jerusalem,Zion , prepared as the bride of Christ.

It’s the beginning of Jacob’s trouble,the last days.. This is like when us like Jacob find ourselves alone with Christ as two walking together by faith (that not seen) In effect Christ touches us all in that way . It was a tribulation (no form) especially for the Judaizers. It left them without a fleshly representative, to place their faith in ,as it remains today.

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. Gen 32:24

garee · Jan 16, 2017

Spurgeoncy said:

Its the end of time, the last day(the sun, and the moon under her feet) when the bride of Christ pictured in Revelation 12 is shown clothed with the righteousness of Christ having received the her promised new body.

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.Rev 12:1

The signal ,the new testament was here was the time of reformation.

Timeline · Jan 16, 2017

Matt 11:11-19[SUP]11 [/SUP]Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. [SUP]12 [/SUP]From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. [SUP]15 [/SUP]He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’

[SUP]19 [/SUP]The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Matt 23: 34-39
[SUP]34 [/SUP]“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, [SUP]35 [/SUP]so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! [SUP]39 [/SUP]For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Mark 8:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”

Mark 13:30-32
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Matt 5:17-18
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

John 19:28After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”

Galatians 5:16-18
[SUP] [/SUP]But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Did Jesus always refer to some random, future generation when He said "this generation"?

Jesus said that nothing would pass from the Law until Heaven and Earth passed away...but Paul says that we have been freed from the Law.

garee · Jan 16, 2017

This generation, the generation of Christ will not pass away until the last one is called by faith.

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

iamsoandso · Jan 16, 2017

PlainWord said:

It is good i think to approach these things with caution,Ill give you an example.

If all of these events have been fulfilled in the past as held by many because of the writings of Josephus then should not the other prophecies concerning the tribulation and the wrath?

So are the wrath,and the tribulation even the same thing? who does the bible say that the wrath of God would be poured out on those with the mark,or the name of the beast or who worships the beast image? Then compare it to the events in Josephus along with the scriptures.

In Revelation 13:16-18 there are a set of things said to either be fulfilled or that at some future time they will be fulfilled,compare them to Josephus and the scriptures.

In the letters of Josephus and history we find a group if events described as the "Jewish revolt" or "Jewish wars". In that time frame of history they,those Jews revolted from Rome and minted their own money(Jewish revolt coins) so they did not buy nor sell with the money of Rome or worship Rome's image as God according to Josephus they revolted against it.

So the scriptures in Rev. 13:16-18 were not fulfilled by those who rebelled against Rome’s authority in the Jewish revolt ad66-70 it seems by those who revolted against Rome’s authority that they were put to death because they refused the mark of Rome’s authority instead opposite of what Revelation 13:15 says.

Now look at the scriptures given to the Christians during the same time frame, Hebrews 13:17,Romans 13,and 1Peter 2 in which is found that to all Christianity the apostles were telling the Christians to obey those set above them and to pay their taxes to them as if appointed by God. So the apostles in fact were telling the Christians to buy and sell with Rome’s money which would have been a direct violation of Rev. 13:16-18 if(if) Rome was the beast spoken of in Rev.13..

samuel23 · Jan 16, 2017

It is a popular idea today to believe that when Jesus said that, this generation shall not pass until all be fulfilled, that Jesus was referring to the future generation that would be alive when Jesus returns. Of course the bible does NOT SAY THAT, and everyone knows that it does not say that, however if we take this place in the bible for what it is literally saying then it appears that Jesus got it wrong. We know that is not true, so we all decide to deny what our own eyes can read and comprehend and pretend that the scripture says what we know it does not say...does the Lord want us to do that? Context is 100% clear that when Jesus said this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled that He was in fact referring to those people living at that time. Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are probably the hardest place in the NT to comprehend because if we take it for what it is actually saying it does not seem to make sense. My thought is that there is a tiny difference in Luke 21 between those things that would happen in that generation...and the other things that have not yet happened. It is obvious that when Jesus said that this generation shall not pass until all be fulfilled, that He had to be referring to those things that happened in 70ad. It is also obvious that when Jesus said that this generation shall not pass until all be fulfilled, he could not have been referring to the heavens being shaken and His return. Why was it written that way? I do not know, however the reality of history proves it to be so.

iamsoandso · Jan 16, 2017

So Matthew 24:15,

When you see see the abomination of desolation spoke by Daniel... is when Jesus said the great tribulation would begin, Matthew 24:21 .

And in Revelation the only ones who receive the wrath of God are the ones who received the mark of the beast or his name or worshipped his image, Rev. 13:16, Rev.14:9 ,Rev. 20:4 ect.

So in ad66-70 the Jews who were involved in the revolt against Rome had the mark worshipped the Image had his name ect. or not?

If they had the mark and Gods wrath was poured out on them and they rebelled against Rome both then the mark they had was not Rome's.

At the same time if Rome was the beast spoken of and the Christians were honouring Rome’s authority and using their money they would be receiving the mark and not having the wrath poured out on them as the scriptures state.

So is the A.O.D. in Matthew 24:21 that Jesus is referring to the same as is in Revelation 13:15-18 ? This tribulation is it an tribulation poured out on Israel(Jacobs trouble),or on Christians,Matthew 24:9/"my names sake meaning on those who believe and profess Jesus as Christ?

Alan2bc · Jan 16, 2017

Hello. I just found his forum today so I’ve not had time to read every post, but I will try my best to do so. I understand the original topic to be “How long is the tribulation?” KJV1611 mentioned Rev 11:2 in his initial post which says, “and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months”. Well, I have read the book of Revelation many times and I have a couple of questions which are related to the topic of this forum.

Reading the posts in this forum I see a lot of references to the Old Testament book of Daniel. I too believe that Revelation cannot be understood without an understanding of the book of Daniel. The two books are prophetic writings which appear to be about the same events. Dan 12:4 says, “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end.” And again in Dan 12:9 we read, “Go the way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed to the time of the end.” If these verses are telling us that the book of Daniel is “shut up” till the “time of the end” then when is the time of the end? When will it, or did it, start and how will it unseal the words of Daniel’s writings so that we can fully understand what they mean? Wouldn’t God tell us specifically when this time would begin if our understanding of Daniel’s writings depends on it? Can we really understand the book of Revelation without a good understanding of the book Daniel?
The book of Revelation contains lots of symbolic language describing things that must represent something else which the author was trying to describe at the time. If we say that every word of Revelation is literal and not symbolic then we can expect a seven headed beast to rise up out of the sea and come ashore sometime in the future. If some of the book is written using symbolic language, then which parts are symbolic and which parts are to be taken literally? Wouldn’t God have given us the key to understanding the difference between the literal and the symbolic of prophesy? How do we discern the difference?

PlainWord · Jan 16, 2017

iamsoandso said:

Please see my post #211 which fully explains the Olivet and end times scenario. It is 100% accurate. The Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21 ended in 70 AD. However, we are told in multiple passages that Christ will be revealed from heaven (AKA REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST), that God's furious wrath will be poured out upon the Beast and its Kingdom (followers).

They cannot be Rome because Rome as the legs of Dan 2 statue has already been divided into 2 feet and 10 toes. The Rock which strikes the statue is not striking Rome but rather the feet and toes. Further, Rev 13 discusses a beast which came from the region of the Lion, Leopard, Bear which is north of Israel. Rome is almost exactly due West. This Beast has 7 heads, one of which was mortally wounded but heals. This is a much longer topic but the short of it is, this beast is ISLAMIC.

How long is the tribulation?

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