How long is the tribulation?
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I see you refuse to do the work of looking for the spiritual meaning, hid from natural man this is even though Christ said without parables he spoke not.
Yes they could never understand them unless g Christ gave them the spirutl understanding.
Yes hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost as those who refuse to do the work of rightly dividing. .
Yes, they see with their eyes walking by sight in respect to the temporal called a literal. They oppose the spiritual understanding (the eternal not seen)
I know that those who have the Spirit of Christ were given the spiritual meaning to them and hid from the lost. Without parables Christ the Holy Spirit of God spoke not to the multitude. (Every person that heard the literal words that conveyed a spiritual understanding including the Jews..
The "You" in the verse above, would refer to the disciples and all believers, ergo, we as believers have been given the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but it wasn't given to them. The "them" would be the people of that generation of Israel.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom 9:6
Christian is the new named for those which are of Israel
Regarding spiritual meanings, you invent them. You force other meanings that aren't there, as there is nothing to link the verse to your claim. It is all conjecture. Not everything, in fact, most subjects in the Bible do not have multiple meanings. All you're doing is forcing the issue. You apply parabolic meanings to Biblical topics that are not parables. [/QUOTE]
I think you forgot that "without" parables Christ the word of God spoke not.
The below informs us how we are to understand parables?
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Sure they are parables .Is below a parable? It says it is a historical true, parable. Is it?
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
The word figure is the same word parable .Just as the word proverb .
Yes they could never understand them unless g Christ gave them the spirutl understanding.
Yes hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost as those who refuse to do the work of rightly dividing. .
Yes, they see with their eyes walking by sight in respect to the temporal called a literal. They oppose the spiritual understanding (the eternal not seen)
I know that those who have the Spirit of Christ were given the spiritual meaning to them and hid from the lost. Without parables Christ the Holy Spirit of God spoke not to the multitude. (Every person that heard the literal words that conveyed a spiritual understanding including the Jews..
The "You" in the verse above, would refer to the disciples and all believers, ergo, we as believers have been given the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but it wasn't given to them. The "them" would be the people of that generation of Israel.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom 9:6
Christian is the new named for those which are of Israel
Regarding spiritual meanings, you invent them. You force other meanings that aren't there, as there is nothing to link the verse to your claim. It is all conjecture. Not everything, in fact, most subjects in the Bible do not have multiple meanings. All you're doing is forcing the issue. You apply parabolic meanings to Biblical topics that are not parables. [/QUOTE]
I think you forgot that "without" parables Christ the word of God spoke not.
The below informs us how we are to understand parables?
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Sure they are parables .Is below a parable? It says it is a historical true, parable. Is it?
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
The word figure is the same word parable .Just as the word proverb .
It must be they insist we do need a man to teach us .The motive of operation of the antichrist (one) , antichrists (many ).
The many antichrists were there in the first century when the refomation came ending the signs and types used as shadows. It became the time of Jacobs trouble scattering the Jews, seeing there were no longer used as shadows and types in respect to their outward flesh , a tribulation not seen among them before or ever again (he came once) They rejected that.Hoping their own flesh could profit for something other than to look at. .
The many antichrists were there in the first century when the refomation came ending the signs and types used as shadows. It became the time of Jacobs trouble scattering the Jews, seeing there were no longer used as shadows and types in respect to their outward flesh , a tribulation not seen among them before or ever again (he came once) They rejected that.Hoping their own flesh could profit for something other than to look at. .
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P
See post 93.
He refers to the Messiah not the anti-christ.
The Messiah confirmed His covenant with many while most rejected Him and crucified Him.
This fulfilled the first half of the 70th week. Dan. clearly teaches that there are 1335 days left in the 70th week that will begin when the Man of Sin is revealed.
The Messiah put a stop to the Temple worship that had become an abomination to God.
When the Messiah was crucified, the Temple worship was no longer accepted. Jesus fulfilled the Law.
The destruction of the Temple referred to was when Titus destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was not reffering to the anti-christ.
The Jews were scattered through out the world at that time.
The anti-christ is not mentioned nor referred to in Dan. 9. There is no mention of a covenant/peace treaty between Israel and the anti-christ anywhere in Scripture.
The misunderstanding of the pronoun "he" used two times in verse 27 has lead to this false teaching.
P
Here is a challenge for everyone.
Open your bible to Dan. 9: 24-27.
Ask someone who does not study the Bible as much as you do, ( one of your kids, your wife, your brother, an English teacher) to read those verses and then ask them who the pronoun "HE" in verse 27 refers to.
Now don't cheat. Don't even mention the tribulation period or the peace treaty, or Israel, or the anti-christ.
Open your bible to Dan. 9: 24-27.
Ask someone who does not study the Bible as much as you do, ( one of your kids, your wife, your brother, an English teacher) to read those verses and then ask them who the pronoun "HE" in verse 27 refers to.
Now don't cheat. Don't even mention the tribulation period or the peace treaty, or Israel, or the anti-christ.
Hello Persuaded,
First, all you doing above is repeating what you have read or heard, for I recognize everything that you are saying above, because I've heard it many times. So you are just repeating someone else's apologetic. Second and most importantly, Jesus cannot be the "He" of Dan.9:27. For the "He" in the verse does three things:
* Established a seven year covenant with Israel
* In the middle of the seven years puts a stop to the offerings and sacrifice
* In the middle of the seven years, sets up an abomination in the holy place
The word "bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as - a reeking stench that goes up before God. Therefore, since the setting up of the abomination in the temple is against God, Jesus cannot possibly be the "He" referred to in the verse, and that because he would be blaspheming God the Father and himself. Grammatically speaking, the "He" of the verse would have to refer back to the last person mentioned, which would be "the ruler of the people," which is that coming antichrist.
Also, at the end of the verse, regarding the "He" is says: " until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." This is not in reference to Messiah being crucified, but is in reference to when Christ returns and that antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of his coming, which is in reference to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age where the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire.
Dan.9:27 is about the antichrist. The abomination is synonymous with that image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast who survives the fatal wound, as described in Rev.13:14-15.
First, all you doing above is repeating what you have read or heard, for I recognize everything that you are saying above, because I've heard it many times. So you are just repeating someone else's apologetic. Second and most importantly, Jesus cannot be the "He" of Dan.9:27. For the "He" in the verse does three things:
* Established a seven year covenant with Israel
* In the middle of the seven years puts a stop to the offerings and sacrifice
* In the middle of the seven years, sets up an abomination in the holy place
The word "bdelugma" translated "abomination" is defined as - a reeking stench that goes up before God. Therefore, since the setting up of the abomination in the temple is against God, Jesus cannot possibly be the "He" referred to in the verse, and that because he would be blaspheming God the Father and himself. Grammatically speaking, the "He" of the verse would have to refer back to the last person mentioned, which would be "the ruler of the people," which is that coming antichrist.
Also, at the end of the verse, regarding the "He" is says: " until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." This is not in reference to Messiah being crucified, but is in reference to when Christ returns and that antichrist/beast is destroyed by the brightness of his coming, which is in reference to when Christ returns to the earth to end the age where the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire.
Dan.9:27 is about the antichrist. The abomination is synonymous with that image that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast who survives the fatal wound, as described in Rev.13:14-15.
P
No, I am not repeating what have heard or read.
That is what you are doing.
What you believe is exactly what I was taught for years.
What you believe is exactly what I read for years.
It is only when I began studying for my self that I realized the truth.
Dan. 9 is about the last 70 weeks (490 years) that God will deal with Israel.
After 69 weeks the Messiah is presented to them.
Did not Jesus offer Himself to Israel as the promised Messiah.
Why would you believe that this is not God continuing dealing with Israel?
P
You are the one repeating word for word a false doctrine that has been preached and taught for years.
This is nothing new. It is not something you learned through study.
What you have done is approach the Scripture with the idea of PROVING what you have already been taught and believe.
Take the challenge I proposed if you dare.
This is nothing new. It is not something you learned through study.
What you have done is approach the Scripture with the idea of PROVING what you have already been taught and believe.
Take the challenge I proposed if you dare.
P
When I learned the truth about Dan 9:27 some 20 years ago and presented it to others, I was told how foolish I was.
Over these past 20 years, I have found a few that also have learned the truth.
About 5 years ago I was talking to an old 90 year old preacher who agreed with me.
He said what we believe is what was taught by the old preacher when he was growing up.
It only changed after the publishing of the Scofield Bible.
Over these past 20 years, I have found a few that also have learned the truth.
About 5 years ago I was talking to an old 90 year old preacher who agreed with me.
He said what we believe is what was taught by the old preacher when he was growing up.
It only changed after the publishing of the Scofield Bible.
So, do you think that Jesus is the "He" of Dan.9:27 who is setting up the abomination? That kills your whole interpretation.
Regarding your challenge, it needs to be interpreted by people who have studied these Biblical topics, not by people who don't. Why would you suggest to have people who are unqualified, who have not studied that topic to interpret it? It's No wonder you believe in this false teaching.
In the scripture, the Messiah is cut off at the end of sixty-nine sevens. Then another figure is referred to as "the ruler," which is introduced after the Messiah is cut off. My understanding of this and every Biblical issue comes from study, not the teachings of men. That last seven years is set in the future to "finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." These things are still unfulfilled. Neither did Christ make a seven year covenant with Israel, nor did Christ set up an abomination in the holy place.
The "He" in the verse is referring to that antichrist who, in the near future, will establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will initiate that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven year decree.
Seven 'seven' year periods = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem
Sixty-nine seven year periods = Messiah cut off/crucified
One seven year period = The Ruler/antichrist establishes a seven year agreement with Israel
From the onset of that seven years, Israel will rebuild the temple and will once again begin to make offerings and sacrifices according to the law. But in the middle of that seven years, the antichrist, controlled by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss, will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings and set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple, which is that image spoken of in Rev.13:14-15 that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast.
Regarding your challenge, it needs to be interpreted by people who have studied these Biblical topics, not by people who don't. Why would you suggest to have people who are unqualified, who have not studied that topic to interpret it? It's No wonder you believe in this false teaching.
In the scripture, the Messiah is cut off at the end of sixty-nine sevens. Then another figure is referred to as "the ruler," which is introduced after the Messiah is cut off. My understanding of this and every Biblical issue comes from study, not the teachings of men. That last seven years is set in the future to "finish their rebellion, to put an end to their sin, to atone for their guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to confirm the prophetic vision, and to anoint the Most Holy Place." These things are still unfulfilled. Neither did Christ make a seven year covenant with Israel, nor did Christ set up an abomination in the holy place.
The "He" in the verse is referring to that antichrist who, in the near future, will establish a seven year agreement with Israel, which will initiate that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven year decree.
Seven 'seven' year periods = Restore and rebuild Jerusalem
Sixty-nine seven year periods = Messiah cut off/crucified
One seven year period = The Ruler/antichrist establishes a seven year agreement with Israel
From the onset of that seven years, Israel will rebuild the temple and will once again begin to make offerings and sacrifices according to the law. But in the middle of that seven years, the antichrist, controlled by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss, will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings and set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple, which is that image spoken of in Rev.13:14-15 that the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the beast.
NO, There are around 65 biblical passages where the Israelites turn away from God over the centuries. Yet, God keeps coming taking them back every time. Why would he stop now because they did not know of his arrival in Jerusalem. That is what this is about is it not.....The rejection of Israel by God thus we the Church are now his chosen people?????? This way of thinking is about about as bad if not worse that the Calvinism (dispensationalism).
I think you forgot that "without" parables Christ the word of God spoke not.
The below informs us how we are to understand parables?
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Sure they are parables .Is below a parable? It says it is a historical true, parable. Is it?
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
The word figure is the same word parable .Just as the word proverb .
[/QUOTE]
The below informs us how we are to understand parables?
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Sure they are parables .Is below a parable? It says it is a historical true, parable. Is it?
Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
The word figure is the same word parable .Just as the word proverb .
[/QUOTE]
There are some interesting things in the writing of Josephus. In one place he talks about the roman fort that looked down on the temple. Some think that crusaders found the highest place and assumed it was where the temple stood but that it could be where the roman fort stood.
There was another place where he talked about how from a certain area, the temple could not be seen, but if the temple was on the "temple mount", it would have been easily seen from the place he claims it could NOT be seen.
It's very interesting. Although Josephus had some obvious biases and penchants, there would be no reason for him to lie about these things...
There was another place where he talked about how from a certain area, the temple could not be seen, but if the temple was on the "temple mount", it would have been easily seen from the place he claims it could NOT be seen.
It's very interesting. Although Josephus had some obvious biases and penchants, there would be no reason for him to lie about these things...
P
Here is your problem.
You believe you have a superior intellect that allows you to INTERPRET Scripture.
You should just read it and believe it and not INTERPRET it to prove what you believe.
He, Jesus will put a stop to the temple worship that had become an abomination to God.
Read the Matt., Mark, Luke and understand what Jesus said about the priest and the worship system.
The man of sin will set up an abomination during the last half of the 70th week.
Dan. addresses this in Dan. 11-12.
The anti-christ is not mentioned in Dan 9.
Show me just one other Scripture that mentions a 7 year peace treaty between the anti-christ and Israel.
YOU CAN NOT DO THAT>
You believe you have a superior intellect that allows you to INTERPRET Scripture.
You should just read it and believe it and not INTERPRET it to prove what you believe.
He, Jesus will put a stop to the temple worship that had become an abomination to God.
Read the Matt., Mark, Luke and understand what Jesus said about the priest and the worship system.
The man of sin will set up an abomination during the last half of the 70th week.
Dan. addresses this in Dan. 11-12.
The anti-christ is not mentioned in Dan 9.
Show me just one other Scripture that mentions a 7 year peace treaty between the anti-christ and Israel.
YOU CAN NOT DO THAT>