"how that Christ died for our sins"

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EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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#21
No, I am not saying that. He might have preached that to the Jews too.

What he deemed as "my gospel" to the Gentiles, was the good news in 1 Cor 15:1-4.
There is no doubt that Paul would include these types of themes in his preaching. His knowledge of the Scriptures was so vast, and he knew very well that the Messiah had to suffer and die for our sins, be buried, and raised again on the third day.

In your postings, there seems to be an implication that there are different salvation requirements, one set for the Jews and another set for the Gentiles. Do you believe this to be this case? If so, what are the differences?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#22
There is no doubt that Paul would include these types of themes in his preaching. His knowledge of the Scriptures was so vast, and he knew very well that the Messiah had to suffer and die for our sins, be buried, and raised again on the third day.

In your postings, there seems to be an implication that there are different salvation requirements, one set for the Jews and another set for the Gentiles. Do you believe this to be this case? If so, what are the differences?
This will take us into the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, which is deviating from the opening post.

Let's just say that, when you read the Acts account, Jews who believed that Jesus is their Messiah are expected to
  1. Keep the Law (Acts 10:28, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12)
  2. Share all their possessions (Acts 4:32, based on what Jesus taught them in Luke 12:33)
  3. Face possible death by God for breaking the law (Acts 5:4-5)
  4. Undergo water baptism (Acts 2:38)
Gentiles who believed are exempted from the Law (Acts 21:25).

Those are not trivial differences don't you think?
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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#23
This will take us into the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, which is deviating from the opening post.

Let's just say that, when you read the Acts account, Jews who believed that Jesus is their Messiah are expected to
  1. Keep the Law (Acts 10:28, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12)
  2. Share all their possessions (Acts 4:32, based on what Jesus taught them in Luke 12:33)
  3. Face possible death by God for breaking the law (Acts 5:4-5)
  4. Undergo water baptism (Acts 2:38)
Gentiles who believed are exempted from the Law (Acts 21:25).

Those are not trivial differences don't you think?
There is no doubt that Acts and many of the epistles show the struggle to define what it means for Jews and Gentiles to live as Christians. One transition that had to occur for Jewish Christians in particular is a new way of living apart from keeping the law of Moses. This was not as big a deal for Gentiles, as most were unfamiliar with the Torah.

Jewish Christians, however, were not required to keep the law of Moses; they were to rely on the same grace as Gentile Christians that is found in the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter summarizes it beautifully in Ac 15, where he states that this yoke, the law of Moses, was not bearable by the Jewish forefathers or the Apostles. Peter knew that only Jesus could keep and fulfill the law of Moses, which is why only Jesus can be the spotless Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of both Jews and Gentiles (1Pe 1:19).

Acts 15:6-11
[6] The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. [7] And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said the them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [8] And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, [9] and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. [10] Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? [11] But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

How can water baptism not be for the Gentiles as well (Ac 10:44-48; 18:5-8; Ro 6:1-4; Col 2:8-12; 1Pe 3:18-22)?
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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#24
This will take us into the distinction between the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of Grace, which is deviating from the opening post.

Let's just say that, when you read the Acts account, Jews who believed that Jesus is their Messiah are expected to
  1. Keep the Law (Acts 10:28, Acts 21:20, Acts 22:12)
  2. Share all their possessions (Acts 4:32, based on what Jesus taught them in Luke 12:33)
  3. Face possible death by God for breaking the law (Acts 5:4-5)
  4. Undergo water baptism (Acts 2:38)
Gentiles who believed are exempted from the Law (Acts 21:25).

Those are not trivial differences don't you think?
This sounds like dispensationalism taken very far. The Gentiles are expected to be water baptized as well. Sharing all possessions is no longer required because the Church is so large that we do not live in communes, but if it came to the point that we did live in a country where Christians are persecuted and we have to come together, yes we should sell our possessions and share it among those who are in need.
 

Locoponydirtman

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Oct 9, 2018
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#25
Because we have so sullied the image of God in which we were created, with our evil, violent, wanton, and immoral behavior; that death is our just reward. Yet Jesus, God born in the flesh who lived out the image of God perfectly before man and God in heaven and the whole host of the heavenlies, took our punishment which is death upon himself in our stead. So that he having paid our price has redeemed us from death to himself.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#26
There is no doubt that Acts and many of the epistles show the struggle to define what it means for Jews and Gentiles to live as Christians. One transition that had to occur for Jewish Christians in particular is a new way of living apart from keeping the law of Moses. This was not as big a deal for Gentiles, as most were unfamiliar with the Torah.

Jewish Christians, however, were not required to keep the law of Moses; they were to rely on the same grace as Gentile Christians that is found in the Lord Jesus Christ. Peter summarizes it beautifully in Ac 15, where he states that this yoke, the law of Moses, was not bearable by the Jewish forefathers or the Apostles. Peter knew that only Jesus could keep and fulfill the law of Moses, which is why only Jesus can be the spotless Lamb of God who was slain for the sins of both Jews and Gentiles (1Pe 1:19).

Acts 15:6-11
[6] The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. [7] And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said the them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. [8] And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, [9] and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. [10] Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? [11] But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

How can water baptism not be for the Gentiles as well (Ac 10:44-48; 18:5-8; Ro 6:1-4; Col 2:8-12; 1Pe 3:18-22)?
But it was James who had the final say during acts 15 council.

Did he say exactly what Peter stated in v11? Read carefully and tell me.

Hint: if he did, then what the elders and him told Paul in acts 21:20 would be a contradiction.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#27
This sounds like dispensationalism taken very far. The Gentiles are expected to be water baptized as well. Sharing all possessions is no longer required because the Church is so large that we do not live in communes, but if it came to the point that we did live in a country where Christians are persecuted and we have to come together, yes we should sell our possessions and share it among those who are in need.
Curious, in your view, why was water baptism required for every Jew who believes during the 4 Gospels, but in the OT, it was not?

As for your view that "Sharing all possessions is no longer required because the Church is so large that we do not live in communes.", may I know how you came to that view? Was it taught to you, or you read it somewhere in the bible?
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
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#28
Curious, in your view, why was water baptism required for every Jew who believes during the 4 Gospels, but in the OT, it was not?

As for your view that "Sharing all possessions is no longer required because the Church is so large that we do not live in communes.", may I know how you came to that view? Was it taught to you, or you read it somewhere in the bible?
I came to that view by just observing how things continue on in the book of Acts till today. Could you imagine a commune of a million people? Would never work.

Water baptism is not just for Jews in the 4 Gospels. Acts 16:31 what must I do to be saved? Answer is believe on the Lord Jesus but then read on, the man is baptized in water and he is a gentile.

The Jews did baptism before John ever showed up, the Mikvah its called, it is part of rabbinical Judaism even today.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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#29
But it was James who had the final say during acts 15 council.

Did he say exactly what Peter stated in v11? Read carefully and tell me.

Hint: if he did, then what the elders and him told Paul in acts 21:20 would be a contradiction.
Just because James spoke last does not mean he had the “final say.” This was a collective decision, as evidenced by the context and the letter itself. It was ultimately a decision by the Holy Spirit as well as the apostles and elders (Ac 15:28).

James agreed with Peter because instead of trying to make the Gentiles bear the yoke of the entire Mosaic Law, he only proposed a very small portion of it (Ac 15:20).

In Ac 21, Paul is simply doing what he stated in 1Co 9:19-20.

[19] For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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#30
Just because James spoke last does not mean he had the “final say.” This was a collective decision, as evidenced by the context and the letter itself. It was ultimately a decision by the Holy Spirit as well as the apostles and elders (Ac 15:28).

James agreed with Peter because instead of trying to make the Gentiles bear the yoke of the entire Mosaic Law, he only proposed a very small portion of it (Ac 15:20).

In Ac 21, Paul is simply doing what he stated in 1Co 9:19-20.

[19] For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. [20] To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
But Did James state that the Jews are also to be exempted from the law!

This is important for peter, he would not have the incident with Paul in Galatians 2 if what James states did not matter
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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#31
But Did James state that the Jews are also to be exempted from the law!

This is important for peter, he would not have the incident with Paul in Galatians 2 if what James states did not matter
As mentioned in a previous post, there is no doubt that a struggle is occurring to define what it means for Jews and Gentiles to live as Christians. Paul seems to recognize, accept, and live in this newfound freedom from the law granted through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ quicker than some of his fellow Jewish believers. In Galatians 2, Paul recognizes that Peter and the men sent from James were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel and subsequently confronts Peter in front of them all (v. 14).

It is important to understand that James, Cephas, and John are preaching the gospel to the circumcised (Gal 2:9), which resulted in thousands of Jews believing in Jesus as their Messiah (Ac 21:20). When Paul comes along, who has fully understood and embraced his freedom in Christ from the Mosaic law, James knows there will be severe contention as a result of the existing anger over what the Jews have been hearing about the gospel of Christ that Paul proclaims. In this time period in particular, to say that it is a sensitive matter to no longer be under the law of Moses is an understatement. As we know, Paul has no problem behaving as if he is under the law to win Jews (1Co 9:20), and so he does what seems good to James at that point in time. James eventually recognizes the freedom from the Mosaic Law that exists in Christ and calls this new way of life for Christians, both Jew and Gentile, the law of liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12).

James 2:12

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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#32
As mentioned in a previous post, there is no doubt that a struggle is occurring to define what it means for Jews and Gentiles to live as Christians. Paul seems to recognize, accept, and live in this newfound freedom from the law granted through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ quicker than some of his fellow Jewish believers. In Galatians 2, Paul recognizes that Peter and the men sent from James were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel and subsequently confronts Peter in front of them all (v. 14).

It is important to understand that James, Cephas, and John are preaching the gospel to the circumcised (Gal 2:9), which resulted in thousands of Jews believing in Jesus as their Messiah (Ac 21:20). When Paul comes along, who has fully understood and embraced his freedom in Christ from the Mosaic law, James knows there will be severe contention as a result of the existing anger over what the Jews have been hearing about the gospel of Christ that Paul proclaims. In this time period in particular, to say that it is a sensitive matter to no longer be under the law of Moses is an understatement. As we know, Paul has no problem behaving as if he is under the law to win Jews (1Co 9:20), and so he does what seems good to James at that point in time. James eventually recognizes the freedom from the Mosaic Law that exists in Christ and calls this new way of life for Christians, both Jew and Gentile, the law of liberty (Jas 1:25; 2:12).

James 2:12

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.

Romans 8:2

For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
So the point you stated "Jewish Christians, however, were not required to keep the law of Moses; they were to rely on the same grace as Gentile Christians that is found in the Lord Jesus Christ." is incorrect.

No Jews who believe, who attended or heard the Acts 15 council, would go away with that conclusion. James only excused the Gentiles who believed from the Law.

Peter tried to get the Jews exempted as well, but failed to do so, hence leading to an awkward transitional period where Peter did one thing among the Gentiles who believed, but did other things when "the men from James" were with him.

Of course, when the temple was finally destroyed in AD 70, all these events become insignificant. We are gentiles born after AD 70 so to us, its natural that no one can fully keep the Law of Moses, but before AD 70, every Jew had to or they will be cut off (Genesis 17:14, Acts 21:21)
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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#33
Read, I believe in Galations, how it is stressed that we are saved by faith not by works of the law. Think on this, for the law is never omitted, it is undersstood in grace. Jews area all who believe, Gentiles alike, for we all are become praisers of Yah, or Yahudim in Hebrew.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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#34
So the point you stated "Jewish Christians, however, were not required to keep the law of Moses; they were to rely on the same grace as Gentile Christians that is found in the Lord Jesus Christ." is incorrect.

No Jews who believe, who attended or heard the Acts 15 council, would go away with that conclusion. James only excused the Gentiles who believed from the Law.

Peter tried to get the Jews exempted as well, but failed to do so, hence leading to an awkward transitional period where Peter did one thing among the Gentiles who believed, but did other things when "the men from James" were with him.

Of course, when the temple was finally destroyed in AD 70, all these events become insignificant. We are gentiles born after AD 70 so to us, its natural that no one can fully keep the Law of Moses, but before AD 70, every Jew had to or they will be cut off (Genesis 17:14, Acts 21:21)
Jews born before 70 A.D. and Jews born after 70 A.D. have never been or will ever be able to keep the entire Law of Moses, except for the one and only Jew who is our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach. Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Him have died to the law through the body of Christ. We therefore serve in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written code (Rom 7:1-6).

[1] Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? [2] For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. [3] Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. [4] Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. [5] For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. [6] But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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#35
Jews born before 70 A.D. and Jews born after 70 A.D. have never been or will ever be able to keep the entire Law of Moses, except for the one and only Jew who is our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach. Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Him have died to the law through the body of Christ. We therefore serve in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written code (Rom 7:1-6).

[1] Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? [2] For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. [3] Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. [4] Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. [5] For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. [6] But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Yes, they cannot keep the entire Law, that is true, that is what animal sacrifices were for. But that does not mean they can follow what Paul preached, "be dead to the Law", and don't at least, attempt to.

As I have stated, since you are a non Jew, you don't have to concern yourself with what James proclaimed for the Jews.

But I can see you find it difficult to put yourself into the shoes of a Jewish believer during that time, so be it then.
 

EternalFire

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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#36
Yes, they cannot keep the entire Law, that is true, that is what animal sacrifices were for. But that does not mean they can follow what Paul preached, "be dead to the Law", and don't at least, attempt to.

As I have stated, since you are a non Jew, you don't have to concern yourself with what James proclaimed for the Jews.

But I can see you find it difficult to put yourself into the shoes of a Jewish believer during that time, so be it then.
So Paul, being a Jew, could not live according to what he preached because he had to attempt to follow the law of Moses?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#37
So Paul, being a Jew, could not live according to what he preached because he had to attempt to follow the law of Moses?
Jesus revealed to Paul the mysteries of the gospel of grace, that the other 11, and James were not the recipients of.

But as you have correctly stated, he loved his people and wanted them to believe in Jesus as their promised Messiah, so he followed the Law, even though he knew it was not necessary, to be accepted by the Jews. As one of the verses I have used in Acts stated, only those Jews who are devout to the Law are highly respected among the Jews.

But as the sad incident in Acts 21-22 showed, the Jews have rejected him because they regarded him as a law breaker. They were incensed that he told them that Jesus was sending him to the Gentiles (Acts 22:22). This was forbidden under the Law.

It was noteworthy that none of the elders, nor James, ever came to his defense in Acts 22-23, even after they persuaded him to sponsor the Jewish shaving head ceremony.
 

Jayking94

New member
May 10, 2019
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#38
Jesus revealed to Paul the mysteries of the gospel of grace, that the other 11, and James were not the recipients of.

But as you have correctly stated, he loved his people and wanted them to believe in Jesus as their promised Messiah, so he followed the Law, even though he knew it was not necessary, to be accepted by the Jews. As one of the verses I have used in Acts stated, only those Jews who are devout to the Law are highly respected among the Jews.

But as the sad incident in Acts 21-22 showed, the Jews have rejected him because they regarded him as a law breaker. They were incensed that he told them that Jesus was sending him to the Gentiles (Acts 22:22). This was forbidden under the Law.

It was noteworthy that none of the elders, nor James, ever came to his defense in Acts 22-23, even after they persuaded him to sponsor the Jewish shaving head ceremony.
Does anyone speak or read Latin/Aramaic or Greek I really need to see these accurately deciphered
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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#39
Jews born before 70 A.D. and Jews born after 70 A.D. have never been or will ever be able to keep the entire Law of Moses, except for the one and only Jew who is our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach. Both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Him have died to the law through the body of Christ. We therefore serve in the new way of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written code (Rom 7:1-6).

[1] Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? [2] For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. [3] Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. [4] Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. [5] For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. [6] But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
One more point to add to this

People often mix cause and effect when it comes to Hebrews 11.

God command all of us now to cease from our works and trust in Jesus's finished work for our salvation. We show our faith in him by obeying exactly what he commanded us, and we are credited with salvation.

God commanded Noah to build an ark because a flood is coming. Noah showed his faith in God by likewise, obeying exactly what he commanded, and he was credited with salvation

For the rest of the OT after the Law of Moses, God commanded all the Jews to circumcise their children (Genesis 17), keep the Law, and sacrifice an animal every time they sinned. The Jews in the OT showed their faith in God by likewise, obeying exactly what he commanded, and they were credited with salvation.

To give a counter-example, imagine if a Jew during the era of Leviticus were to ever tell the High priest and God, "I am going to cease from my works and trust in Jesus's finished work at the cross for my salvation", I am not going to circumcise my male kids, keep the Law or sacrifice an animal".

If he were to do that, will he be saved? The answer is no, because those were not God's commandments for the OT Jews, as they are for us NOW. (I recall a similar scenario from the Choose your Own Adventure book "The Forbidden Castle")

None of us were saved by our own works. All of us obeyed what God commanded in faith, during each period of time, and we are saved by that faith.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#40
Study the Word and understand, all who come to believe because of Jesus Christ, are joined to Israel by the faith of Abraham, and the, we, receive the inheritance to come with them.

Read the teaching of our Lord about the Original Flock and that Other Flock joined to it.

Learn the Jew, is short for Judah or Yahudah transliterated from Hebrew and it means Praiser of Yah (Praiser of God.) In this we are become Jews everyone by the Blood of the Lamb

Read in Romans how Paul goes at length to describe andd define the true Praiser of God.........that particular teaching has it as the true Jew in other translations.

No one should be found a hypocrite here. All who believe in the two great laws of love know that all of the law hangs on them, as taught by Jesus, Yeshua. This being the case, those who believe in those laws are what they call "under the law" whether they like it or not, and are vainly looking for fault in the obedient. They should meditat on their own navals and nto disparage those who are not afraid eto understand Jesus on the law..

Just because our Salvation is not of ourselve is no excuse to disobey the two great laws and the laws which hang upon them. It is too bad many live in ignorance of just how the law is yet extant. Yes, extand, but only according to Jesus Christ's teaching. They are afraid to know.