How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

The sickle is an instrument being used in a visionary scenario - the interpretation of which must be based on the context of that visionary scenario.

Right! it is symbolic and prophetic - speaking of near future events such as Armageddon. God will not use a sickle at Armageddon. However, it is very likely that those beheaded will be beheaded by a sword. For certain the rapture is not found in this chapter.

 

[lamad]

WOW WOW WOWZA Brother - You never read the Gospel of Matthew???

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now you have to prove with scripture that this gathering is Paul's rapture gathering. No one as yet has ever been able to prove this with scripture. It is certainly a gathering, and it is certainly after the trib. But it is NOT Paul's gathering. His gathering comes before the Day of the Lord as per 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

When forming doctrine of end times, a theory must agree with ALL end times scriptures. One should never form doctrine from an isolated verse.

 

[lamad]

Rev 19 has Jesus coming post wrath on horses

Not in the trib

I have searched diligently for horses in 1 Thes. 4 & 5: they are just not there.

 

[lamad]

The 144k is symbolic - you can find the literal meaning of the 144k in Gospel of John, Romans, Galatians, I Peter, James and Genesis

How do you know it is symbolic? It makes perfect sense taken literally as the firstfruits of the Hebrew harvest.

This is how nonsense doctrine is formed: taking literal scriptures and making them symbolic.

 

[lamad]

Paul spoke of Jesus' rapture - Jesus spoke of it first...

It is Paul's rapture because He is the only writer of the NT that received a revelation of the rapture - and he said it was a mystery. He could not call the rapture a mystery if Jesus spoke of it first.

The answer is simple: Jesus never spoke of the catching up of those who are alive and in Christ. He DID speak of taking the church to heaven to the homes He has prepared.

 

[lamad]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

Unless you can place a certain coming on a timeline and show that it will be His NEXT coming, you cannot prove any "coming" to be a "second" coming. In fact, "second" in relation to a coming is used only ONCE in the NT:


Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Which "coming" verse would this be a parallel to: His Rev. 19 coming or His 1 Thes. 4 coming?

I believe it parallels His 1 Thes. 4 coming, which according to Paul will be BEFORE the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath, and of course before His wrath. In Revelation that must be before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal. How amazing then, John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal - as the great crowd too large to number.

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages.
Sorry, but you are reading into Paul's scripture what is not there. You may imagine it is in timing alignment with Matthew 24, but imagination does not prove anything. Paul tells us (not in so many words) that his gathering will come before the Day and before Wrath. It would then be impossible for it to happen any time AFTER the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal.

 

[DavidTree]

You are trying to hard - just like the 'pre-trib' people do.

humble reminder:

Whenever you study Revelation, you must always start with an understanding of "what John saw" - you must never try to interpret individual words and/or phrases apart from an understanding of "what John saw" - or you will fall/slip into error.

Correctly applying the 'vision' aspect of Revelation to its interpretation is critical to obtaining a proper understanding of it.

Not humble reminder - you just erred - there is NO interpretation in my post!!!

v13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write,
“Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”
v14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

NO RAPTURE in these verses - the exact opposite, just as the Scripture says, without anyone's interpretation.

 

[peldom10]

There is the Kingdom of God in heaven ... that's our inheritance and there is the kingdom of God on earth which is yet to come ... that is what the Jews were promised and what they shall get.

"Thy Kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

just the jews...separate......r u sure about that?

.....Our father who art in heaven.....thy kingdom comes thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven....

...no one has ever seen God and if they did they must surely die...

...the earth will be cleansed with fire.....

 

[lamad]

Dear Brother Nehemiah6, the following statement was made by member lamad Post #2,845

lamad said: "This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!"
"IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground."

There can be no doubt that in His Armageddon coming, Rev. 19, He comes to the ground to the Battle of Armageddon. He also comes riding a white horse. The armies of heaven come with Him. One can find NONE of this in His 1 Thes. coming: there He stops in a cloud and calls up the church. There is no resurrection found in the Matthew 24 gathering.

Paul's rapture, if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, comes before the Day and before wrath. Since the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. chapter 6, then the rapture must come before the Day starts because that is the Day of His wrath.

Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: this series of events will start with SUDDENLY the dead in Christ flying up out of their graves. WHEN? When people are thinking and saying "peace and safety." How can ANYONE imagine people saying peace and safety after the days of GT?

A moment after the dead in Christ rise, then Paul tells us that two different groups of people get two very different results:
1. Those that are alive and in Christ get salvation: they are caught up to join the dead in Christ.
2. All those who are left behind fact Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul hints strongly that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath and the start of the Day of the Lord.

WHERE do we find the start of God's wrath in Revelation? In chapter 19? NO! We find the start of the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal in chapter 6 of Revelation.

Prewrath believers are then forces to move the 6th seal to align with Rev. 19! How amazing is that?

ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong.

 

[DavidTree]

No, the tool he uses is one that is specially made to harvest grapes safely. The grapes are safe and unharmed.

The second harvest is where grapes suffer harm:

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Guess who trods those grapes?

Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Jesus!

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is the rapture.

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress , even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is Armageddon and the wrath of God.

revelation 14 :14 is not the rapture. For one ,the Rapture is the barley Harvest not the Grape Harvest , and there is no sickle in the rapture.
The rapture is the groom gathering His bride.

If you guys frame everything outside the bride /groom dynamic , things become abstract.

Purpose is almost never revealed in other rapture models.

Do you guys know the purpose of the rapture?
The purpose if the trib?
The purpose of the AC?

1) I see almost nobody incorporating the bride and groom. ( a sure pathway for missing any hope to unpack the rapture and surrounding components.)
2) Almost nobody aware that the trib is Jacobs trouble....the time of gentiles OVER, ( THE CHURCH) ,the bride taken and in heaven ,AS JESUS DECLARED, and the beginning of the destruction of the earth and its inhabitants.

3) almost nobody here addresses the PURPOSE of the antichrist.
a) he is obsessed with killing christians....and....
b) He masquerades as the messiah...coming to help the world.
c) he is obsessed with the jews and perverting everything about them. As well as their destruction

Purpose left out is the incubator for mans formulas

There is no separate Harvest that separates the HARVEST.

No where in the Gospels, the Apostles writings or Revelation are there separate Harvests.

 

[lamad]

We know there is a rapture...which begins the tribulation period. Many consider this to be Christ's 2nd coming....I am not convinced.
...in the twinkling of an eye is a very short period of time for Christ to appear and be gone.........scripture leads us in that direction however.......
When Christ appears with His armies later in the trib. period.......is the 2nd advent ....it appears.

I agree, except for "2nd advent." I believe this (Rev. 19 coming) will be His THIRD coming. Why? Because his second coming will be as shown in 1 Thes. 4.

I believe TIME will be church age -> rapture -> and instantly after, "Day of the Lord."

I think Paul tells us this in 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

 

[lamad]

This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.

Man loves the methodology of 'serpent twisting ' of scripture.

God hates it, and so do i.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

the LORD says: "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

No where in Scripture can you find the LORD or the Apostles saying there is more then one return -the Coming of Christ.

Again, to say other then the words of the LORD and the Apostles is the working of the evil one in your heart.

When you recognize this, the Lord will grant you grace to turn away from it.

Never assume that i lack understanding from the Holy Spirit on such things as His Coming and TRUTH.
To hurl insults because you cannot prove from scripture your position is clear immaturity.

The Apostles spoke the same singular Coming of the LORD in their writings - there was never a confusing statement or multiple Returns/Comings of the LORD. Always, just one - His Coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep(the spirits of the dead in Christ)

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. = Revelation 20 the FIRST Resurrection

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

serpent twisting of scripture: "multiple returns of Christ and multiple resurrections and pre-trib rapture before the resurrection"

No where in Scripture can you find the LORD or the Apostles saying there is more then one return -the Coming of Christ.

I disagree. Paul tells us of a coming in 1 Thes. 4, and John tells us of a coming in Revelation 19. If we study both comings, we can see they are different comings separated by over 7 years.

You are trying to force the Gentile church of today into Daniel's 70th week - a period of time ONLY for Daniel's people.

 

[lamad]

Oh, and i am still waiting for the Scripture from you that says: 'Christ is coming for His Church BEFORE the Tribulation'
as you claim - now PROVE it and enough of your silly talk.

I'm still waiting for the scripture that says 'Christ is coming for His Church AFTER the Tribulation'

You see, brother, NO ONE has EVER proved with scripture that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's gathering. That is because it is NOT Paul's gathering and comes over 7 years AFTER Paul's gathering.

 

[lamad]

Not just silly but corrupt when they say "did JESUS really say HE is Coming after the Tribulation."

Oh wait, that lie is now exposed, so you say: "this does not prevent the Lord from coming before that".

That satement you made a number of times reveals a proud heart, lack of the fear of God, and far far worse then silliness.

All this is only your opinion.

You have formed a doctrine from one, isolated verse. Did you check all end time passages to see if your theory would fit other scriptures? One can only IMAGINE the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. It cannot be proven to be because it is not and cannot be.

 

[lamad]

i lack understanding in Revelation???

Do you know that Revelation repeats Itself throughout by saying the same thing in different ways.

Now I KNOW you have a lack of understanding in Revelation.

My axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

 

[DavidTree]

There can be no doubt that in His Armageddon coming, Rev. 19, He comes to the ground to the Battle of Armageddon. He also comes riding a white horse. The armies of heaven come with Him. One can find NONE of this in His 1 Thes. coming: there He stops in a cloud and calls up the church. There is no resurrection found in the Matthew 24 gathering.

Paul's rapture, if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, comes before the Day and before wrath. Since the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. chapter 6, then the rapture must come before the Day starts because that is the Day of His wrath.

Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: this series of events will start with SUDDENLY the dead in Christ flying up out of their graves. WHEN? When people are thinking and saying "peace and safety." How can ANYONE imagine people saying peace and safety after the days of GT?

A moment after the dead in Christ rise, then Paul tells us that two different groups of people get two very different results:
1. Those that are alive and in Christ get salvation: they are caught up to join the dead in Christ.
2. All those who are left behind fact Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul hints strongly that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath and the start of the Day of the Lord.

WHERE do we find the start of God's wrath in Revelation? In chapter 19? NO! We find the start of the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal in chapter 6 of Revelation.

Prewrath believers are then forces to move the 6th seal to align with Rev. 19! How amazing is that?

ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong.

Revelation is not chronological from ch 1 directly to ch 20. Revelation repeats Itself and shows us different 'revealings' as it goes along.

The Day of His Coming is the Day of the LORD

His first Coming - One Coming with only Two Outcomes = Eternal Life or Wrath
Second Coming - One Coming with only Two Outcomes = Eternal Life or Wrath

1 Thess 1:10 and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
A.) wait for the Son
B.) the Resurrection/rapture = deliverance from
C.) His coming Wrath

1 Thess 4:13-18

A.) God brings with the LORD the spirits of the Saints who are now in Heaven waiting for the Day of 'His Coming'
B.) FIRST Resurrection, the spirits of the Saints are now joined to their New Glorified Resurrected Body
C.) those whom the LORD 'kept' alive on earth unto His Coming are raptured

2 Thess 2:1-3

A.) Do not believe 'pre-trib rapture lies from anyone - it will not happen until
B.) the 'Falling Away' comes first and
C.) the 'man of sin' - Antichrist

 

[Evmur]

just the jews...separate......r u sure about that?

.....Our father who art in heaven.....thy kingdom comes thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven....

...no one has ever seen God and if they did they must surely die...

...the earth will be cleansed with fire.....

"Thy kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven"

... you say it will never happen.

 

[DavidTree]

All this is only your opinion.

You have formed a doctrine from one, isolated verse. Did you check all end time passages to see if your theory would fit other scriptures? One can only IMAGINE the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. It cannot be proven to be because it is not and cannot be.

A bunch of your opinions is all you bring to the table.

"In the beginning God...." you missed this before. This is just half a verse and yet is FULL DOCTRINE

For you to understand Scripture you must first be like Abraham - Believe what God says - NOT what HE does not say

ALL pre-trib lies are founded upon this violation: Deut 4:1-2, Proverbes 30:5-6, Revelation 22:18-19

Blabber makes good religious doctrines approved by religion.

TRUTH only comes from God and we must live by His Truth = Deut 4:1-2, Prov 30:5-6, John 17, Rev 22:18-19

Cut out the excessive chatter - everyone's starting point is Matthew ch24 - This is a chapter and not a verse, by the way.

 

[DavidTree]

Now you have to prove with scripture that this gathering is Paul's rapture gathering. No one as yet has ever been able to prove this with scripture. It is certainly a gathering, and it is certainly after the trib. But it is NOT Paul's gathering. His gathering comes before the Day of the Lord as per 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

When forming doctrine of end times, a theory must agree with ALL end times scriptures. One should never form doctrine from an isolated verse.

This is too funny......."no one has been able to prove Paul's rapture gathering" - lol - thank you for that

FYI, months ago i offered to $1,000 Reward for the return of the Lost ChiWowWhat of "pre-trib" rapture.

My offer still stands - All you have to do is bring forth the Scripture that clearly states "the Lord will pre-trib rapture His Church".

Rules for Disquallification: arguing, opinions, adding to or taking away from Scripture

 

[DavidTree]

Now I KNOW you have a lack of understanding in Revelation.

My axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

pre-trib rearranges Scripture and perverts Truth

I do not rearrange Scripture - Bad thing to do - there certainly is chronology in Revelation, as it is stated and shown.