How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

When I say "Second Coming", I am referring to the second time He touches down on Earth. I agree that Jesus will have already came into clouds seven years prior to fulfill the Rapture.

Thank you so much for all your previous posts which are so clear, concise, and Biblically correct.

One question - Do you believe we, the Church, will accompany those clothed in clean white linen as He comes back down to establish His Millennial Reign? (You referred to His army as angels).

I believe heaven will be emptied when He comes to Armageddon; both the NT saints and OT saints will be coming with Him on white horses. You are welcome.

There is a problem with your stipulation of touching down. Paul called His coming for the church a "coming."

 

[lamad]

Yes but it couldn't be more clearly stated
Revs 20 4
These are the martyrs of the Great Tribulation they will reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years ...this is the first resurrection or the resurrection of the just [those in Christ at His coming] blessed and holy are they.

After the 1, 000 years there is a short sharp battle then comes the general resurrection unto judgement.

Those who are shown in the first resurrection had been pursued and persecuted and executed for not receiving the mark. This is the Great Tribulation.

Actually, verse 4 includes more than the beheaded.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them "
Who are these seen seated on thrones? They are both the OT and NT saints, all with resurrection bodies.

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded "
These are those who were left behind at the pretrib rapture but then turned to Christ, and then were captured by the Beast. They refused the mark and/or refused to bow to his image, so were beheaded.

"they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "
WHO lived and reigned with Christ? Both groups of saints.

 

[DavidTree]

Did you not read?
Rev. 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

I say this large group is the church, raptured just before wrath (6th seal) as Paul states.
If you don't believe this is the church, can you prove it is not by scripture?

"of all nations:" will the rapture include people of all nations? CHECK!
"of all kindreds:" will the rapture include people of all kindreds? CHECK!
"of all ...people and tongues:" will the rapture include people of all nations? CHECK!
"stood before the throne, and before the Lamb" Will the raptured church stand before the throne and the Lamb? CHECK!
"with white robes:" will the raptured church be given white robes? Without a doubt!

Just think: perhaps 50 generations of believers - billions upon billions of people in one place at one time. The raptured church will be by far the largest group mentioned in Revelation. Just to compare, it would take one person, counting one person every second, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, nearly 130 years to count to ONE billion. No wonder John said too large to count.

OF COURSE there will be a rapture before the timing of Revelation chapter 20 when John mentions the chief of two resurrections.

All the righteous will be a part of this first or chief of resurrections, Jesus included, around 2000 years ago.

Now my Beloved Brother in Christ, do you see how chapter 6 plays out - Six Seals that are chronological according to the Scriptures.

Pay close attention to the Fifth Seal.

When you get back to me - less is better - i prefer short, precise, one at a time, elements of TRUTH.

Just like the LORD said: Here a little, there a little - building Truth upon Truth until the complete Picture is SEEN.

Thank You, Brother

 

[DavidTree]

Actually, verse 4 includes more than the beheaded.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them "
Who are these seen seated on thrones? They are both the OT and NT saints, all with resurrection bodies.

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded "
These are those who were left behind at the pretrib rapture but then turned to Christ, and then were captured by the Beast. They refused the mark and/or refused to bow to his image, so were beheaded.

"they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "
WHO lived and reigned with Christ? Both groups of saints.

AMEN

 

[oyster67]

I believe heaven will be emptied when He comes to Armageddon; both the NT saints and OT saints will be coming with Him on white horses. You are welcome.

Very good then.

There is a problem with your stipulation of touching down. Paul called His coming for the church a "coming."

You can call it Three Comings if you like. Never heard anyone call it that, though.

Godspeed.

 

[lamad]

Very good then.

You can call it Three Comings if you like. Never heard anyone call it that, though.

Godspeed.

I am not afraid to say that His coming to Armageddon will be His third coming. If people wish to say He only comes twice to touch down, that too would work.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no separate Harvest that separates the HARVEST.

No where in the Gospels, the Apostles writings or Revelation are there separate Harvests.

There are two obvious harvests in Revelation 14, one by Christ and one by an angel. There are also two harvests at a separate time:

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

First harvest is the tares, second harvest is the wheat. This is the day of the GWTJ /LOF, and those who go to the NHNE.

 

[lamad]

Now my Beloved Brother in Christ, do you see how chapter 6 plays out - Six Seals that are chronological according to the Scriptures.

Pay close attention to the Fifth Seal.

When you get back to me - less is better - i prefer short, precise, one at a time, elements of TRUTH.

Just like the LORD said: Here a little, there a little - building Truth upon Truth until the complete Picture is SEEN.

Thank You, Brother

Less is better: Got it!

I am well acquainted with the 5th seal. It is quite likely we will disagree on it, but who knows? It is the martyrs of the church age and people are still being added to it.

 

[ewq1938]

Hebrews 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Which "coming" verse would this be a parallel to: His Rev. 19 coming or His 1 Thes. 4 coming?

They both speak of the one and only second coming which happens after the GT is over, at the 7th trump.

I believe it parallels His 1 Thes. 4 coming, which according to Paul will be BEFORE the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath, and of course before His wrath. In Revelation that must be before the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.

All the seals and all trumps are done when Christ returns.

How amazing then, John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal - as the great crowd too large to number.

That was all saved from all time, not just raptured church. That passage takes place during eternity.

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages.
Sorry, but you are reading into Paul's scripture what is not there. You may imagine it is in timing alignment with Matthew 24, but imagination does not prove anything. Paul tells us (not in so many words) that his gathering will come before the Day and before Wrath. It would then be impossible for it to happen any time AFTER the Day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal.

The seals are information of future events not the events happening. The wrath starts at the 7th trump. The 6th seal is describing 7th trump events from the perspective of the unsaved. This is why Jesus does not leave when he opened the 6th seal. He stays in heaven to open the 7th seal.

 

[ewq1938]

There can be no doubt that in His Armageddon coming, Rev. 19, He comes to the ground to the Battle of Armageddon.

He is not described as coming to the ground in Revelation 19. He fights from the air.

 

[ewq1938]

I am not afraid to say that His coming to Armageddon will be His third coming.

There is no third coming. The second coming is the last one. It is described multiple times in the bible but it is clear error to count each one as a separate coming.

 

[oyster67]

There is no third coming. The second coming is the last one. It is described multiple times in the bible but it is clear error to count each one as a separate coming.

If I said that Jesus came into my heart to stay several years ago, would someone have kittens over that as well??

 

[ewq1938]

If I said that Jesus came into my heart to stay several years ago, would someone have kittens over that as well??

We are discussing physical arrivals of Christ not metaphors and symbolisms.

 

[oyster67]

We are discussing physical arrivals of Christ not metaphors and symbolisms.

I am greatly relieved to hear that. For a moment I thought someone may have been flipping semantic pancakes.

obtw, Jesus did return to the planet Earth to rule and reign 1000 years. This takes place on the Earth, not in a cloud.

 

[peldom10]

I agree, except for "2nd advent." I believe this (Rev. 19 coming) will be His THIRD coming. Why? Because his second coming will be as shown in 1 Thes. 4.

I believe TIME will be church age -> rapture -> and instantly after, "Day of the Lord."

I think Paul tells us this in 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

Your analysis is interesting but we must also deal with the coming of Christ with his armies in the clouds ...which is preparatory to His arrival....or 2nd advent. This is presented in scriptures as the coming for the battle of Armageddon.

 

[oyster67]

The truth has been told on this thread multiple times over. Time to move on. Good night and God Bless.

 

[ewq1938]

obtw, Jesus did return to the planet Earth to rule and reign 1000 years.

No, he didn't. That is full Preterism and it's a heresy.

 

[ewq1938]

Your analysis is interesting but we must also deal with the coming of Christ with his armies in the clouds ...which is preparatory to His arrival....or 2nd advent.

No, that is the completion of his coming/arrival. Touching the ground wasn't part of his initial first coming and it isn't in his second. He will eventually step on the ground but it's after the events of Revelation 19.

 

[oyster67]

Your analysis is interesting but we must also deal with the coming of Christ with his armies in the clouds ...which is preparatory to His arrival....or 2nd advent. This is presented in scriptures as the coming for the battle of Armageddon.

Some also view The Second Coming/Advent as a general time period in which seveal events take place. Lets all agree on...

rapture
trib on earth/marriage in heaven
return for Armageddon
millennium
new jerusalem and final state.

 

[peldom10]

No, he didn't. That is full Preterism and it's a heresy.

I am not buying preterism here. Therefore heresy is negated. (a serious charge!!!!!).

Preterism is a view in Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days refer to events which took place in the first century after Christ's birth...

That doesn't fit.