How to be Born Again

[awelight]

Thanks for your unsolicited and ridiculously wrong opinion.


Rather, maybe you should consider keeping your snarky and worthless opinions to yourself.

Wow. What a way to start a conversation. Congratulations.

[QUORE]Free Grace is based on the concept of a completely unmerited Salvation. Free Will places man as the determinate factor. Therefore, if man is the determinate factor, it becomes a work, and thus, not unmerited GRACE.

You are half right and half WRONG. It's that pesky opinion of yours. Yes, FG is completely unmerited salvation. Amen!



Man believes the gospel, God saves and regenerates the believer.[/QUOTE]

Wow, this will be difficult to put into some kind of order. First the issue of free will as you explained it.

You said: Only an idiot would believe that freedom to choose between options makes any kind of determination.
You then later said: If you chose the color of your sox this morning, that is free will. When a person considers creation, that is visible to everyone (Romans 1:19-21

I submit this is double speak. You deny "determination" in free will (which really isn't free at all) but your "will" made the choice of what sox you would put on. Therefore we can conclude, if you are permitted to put on your choice, that you made a determination. Since you determined to wear that color that day. The english word "Determine" is a verb - which means = To cause something to happen in a particular way". Man makes many such decisions throughout life. However, if God decides otherwise, then you put on something else because God is the determinate factor. Simple science - cause and effect. God is the "CAUSE" and man is the "EFFECT".

Psa_36:8 They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD as the watercourses: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

As it relates to Salvation - we can state the following: Man's fallen "will" may choose to confess Christ as Savior but God's choice reigns supreme. A man, in regards to Salvation, is not the determinate cause and thus the effect is Salvation, rather God is the determinate cause and the effect is Salvation for that man. God making such a determination was settled in Eternity past, before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of the eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, (consult John CH. 10 on the Shepherd of the sheep)
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You then gave the following Scripture on the subject of "will":

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You rightly pointed out, that this revelation of God was by what was seen in nature. It represents no spiritual understanding. This is because the natural fallen man is spiritually depraved. Verse 21 does not say that fallen mankind made a choice to not glorify God nor give thanks - it states a fact of mans fallen condition; that he did not glorify God or give thanks. This verse must be harmonized with the rest of the text and a clear understanding of the natural mans condition before God.

Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that has understanding, There is none that is seeking after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

This is God's Holy Word that describes mankind's depraved condition. Not my opinion nor my interpretation. In our natural state our choices are away from God and not towards Him. Paul outlined what our natural heart desires:

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This is why one must be "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit (Born Again), in order to move towards God and His Christ.

You then said: It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Ephesians 2:5 and 8 teach no such thing.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

Our state was outlined by Paul in verses 2&3. Verses 5&6 prove the three things God did for His chosen ones while they were still dead. FIRST - He quickened us. (This is the New Birth - to quicken means to be made alive). SECOND - He raised us up. Thirdly - He made us sit. God caused ALL three and His chosen ones received ALL three. In verse 5 - "....(by grace have you been saved), magnifies the mercy of God on His people. What Scripture calls GRACE (see verse 4).

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Verse 8, shows that once again believers are saved by God's GRACE (going back to verse 4), by means of faith. But before one is so foolish to think this is human faith, which all possess, the writer is inspired to say: that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Once again magnifying that spiritual faith is the effect of it's object. This God given faith is imparted to the one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Again ---- the CAUSE must be God (The Father), and the effect is on the believer, in regeneration, to move that one by faith towards Christ (The Son). (see John 6:37, 44; 10:15; 17:6).

 

[awelight]

i prefers whoever believes....


who is arguing for and against calvinism is this thread, that would be a good place to start,

Somehow, I get the impression, that if one is arguing for what most would call an Arminian view of Salvation or man's self-will, they are warmly welcomed but if they are making an argument for what some call Calvinism or God's predetermined grace they are taking over the thread. Is that about right?

Don't you think both sides have the right to lay out their case? After all, both are attempting to show what they believe has merit in Scripture. One view is God's Truth, the other is Heresy. BOTH cannot be TRUTH. One view knows the God of the Bible and the true Jesus Christ, the other is worshipping a man-made Savior. One side is led by the Holy Spirit and the other is led by their own foolish intellect.

This is the most important issue ever laid before mankind. True believers better make sure they have it straight. No one wants to be guilty of trying to build an improper structure on the once and for all laid foundation.

We are not discussing the pro's and con's of a novel here. Even though I have read some posts that seem just that frivolous. Very sad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Somehow, I get the impression, that if one is arguing for what most would call an Arminian view of Salvation or man's self-will, they are warmly welcomed but if they are making an argument for what some call Calvinism or God's predetermined grace they are taking over the thread. Is that about right?

I get the impression you have a perception problem.

I was against both sides attacking each other, which s what I said,

i also get the impression maybe you are on the calvinist side? Is this why you saw something that was not there?

Don't you think both sides have the right to lay out their case? After all, both are attempting to show what they believe has merit in Scripture. One view is God's Truth, the other is Heresy. BOTH cannot be TRUTH. One view knows the God of the Bible and the true Jesus Christ, the other is worshipping a man-made Savior. One side is led by the Holy Spirit and the other is led by their own foolish intellect.

you must be new here? Both sides have been laying out their cases for months now. They take over threads that has nothing to do with their argument, one guy (an anti calvinist) has opened numerous threads attacking my calvinist brothers with a bunch of false truths,

This is the most important issue ever laid before mankind. True believers better make sure they have it straight. No one wants to be guilty of trying to build an improper structure on the once and for all laid foundation.

well, when we are talking about the gospel yes, but this is not really a gospel issue. So it’s not the most important issue, also in my view, both are in error. But that’s beside the point, it was not what I was complaining about,

We are not discussing the pro's and con's of a novel here. Even though I have read some posts that seem just that frivolous. Very sad.

no, you have calvinists attacking non calvinists and anti calvinists attacking calvinists,

in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do wih calvinism.

so again I ask, why is it calvinists and non calvinists alike have to hijack threads?

do you have an answer?

 

[awelight]

I get the impression you have a perception problem.

I was against both sides attacking each other, which s what I said,

i also get the impression maybe you are on the calvinist side? Is this why you saw something that was not there?


you must be new here? Both sides have been laying out their cases for months now. They take over threads that has nothing to do with their argument, one guy (an anti calvinist) has opened numerous threads attacking my calvinist brothers with a bunch of false truths,


well, when we are talking about the gospel yes, but this is not really a gospel issue. So it’s not the most important issue, also in my view, both are in error. But that’s beside the point, it was not what I was complaining about,


no, you have calvinists attacking non calvinists and anti calvinists attacking calvinists,

in a thread that has absolutely nothing to do wih calvinism.

so again I ask, why is it calvinists and non calvinists alike have to hijack threads?

do you have an answer?

First, I think your opening comment was a little harsh. I was asking in a honest desire to know where you are on the issue.

I am certainly not new here. As far as sides are concerned I am on the Sovereignty of God side. Whichever way someone wants to label it. Salvation, like creation is all of God.....period.

You cannot separate the Gospel from Soteriology, or vice versa. It is not necessary that a babe in Christ understands the points of Soteriology to be saved but it is inexcusable for a more mature believer to have the wrong ideas of Soteriology and perhaps the Gospel.

As far as hijacking is concerned, this thread is about how to be born again, this is tightly interwoven with the proper understanding of Soteriology; since it is not necessary for a person to know how they can be born again because they have nothing to do with it. It is the Sovereign act of God.

 

[Guojing]

They are to me. How about you?

Born again is a term directed to the nation Israel.

You can understand John's specific emphasis on being born again, as inextricably linked to Israel's relationship with God.

Their father, Abraham, was barren. Naturally, at his ripe old age, he could no longer have children.

God had to supernaturally intervene in his life to enable him to give birth to Isaac.

Thru Isaac, thru Jacob, thru his 12 sons, the nation literally came into existence.

Exodus 4:22 had a very insightful verse about this

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

This was reinforced in Jeremiah 31:9

9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

God considered Israel his first born son. They literally became a nation when God supernaturally rescued them from Egypt, separating the waters in the ocean until all of them literally cross over the water in dry land.

But as we all know, Israel broke their covenant of Law that was given at Mount Sinai. They killed or ignored all the prophets that God repeatedly sent to them when they were separated into 2 kingdoms and went into captivity under Babylon, and then under Persia.

Jesus used the parable of the tenants, one of my favorite parables to understand his first coming on Earth to Israel, in all 3 synoptic gospels. (Matthew 21:33-46; Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-19) to illustrate this.

When Jesus and the 12 were preaching from Matt-John, they need to repent of rejecting God their Father in the OT, and believe in his Son is their promised King and Messiah, as foretold by their prophets.

God had mercy on them even when they killed his prophets (e.g. 2 Chronicles 24:20-22; Jeremiah 26:20-30; cf. Luke 13:34; Acts 7:52)., and is now sending his very own Son to Israel, to do a final persuasion to Israel to repent and believe in him.

If they do, as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3, Israel will be born again.

That is why Paul never mentioned the necessity of being born again to us gentiles. That concept is irrelevant to us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First, I think your opening comment was a little harsh. I was asking in a honest desire to know where you are on the issue.

I think how you could read what I said and actually think I was only focusing one way is quite offensive,

I am certainly not new here. As far as sides are concerned I am on the Sovereignty of God side. Whichever way someone wants to label it. Salvation, like creation is all of God.....period.

your right, it is all god, but not the arminian view and not the fatalistic view of calvinism.

You cannot separate the Gospel from Soteriology, or vice versa. It is not necessary that a babe in Christ understands the points of Soteriology to be saved but it is inexcusable for a more mature believer to have the wrong ideas of Soteriology and perhaps the Gospel.

so it is calvinism or it is false?

As far as hijacking is concerned, this thread is about how to be born again, this is tightly interwoven with the proper understanding of Soteriology; since it is not necessary for a person to know how they can be born again because they have nothing to do with it. It is the Sovereign act of God.

dude I was speaking about a lot of threads, not just this one, this thread just became another calvinist hate vs pro calvinist thread.

 

[49]

Do agree with eg. SO many threads in the last 8+ months or so have been destroyed by anti-calvinists, and several folk banned because they became personal. Just insane.....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow, this will be difficult to put into some kind of order. First the issue of free will as you explained it.

You said: Only an idiot would believe that freedom to choose between options makes any kind of determination.
You then later said: If you chose the color of your sox this morning, that is free will. When a person considers creation, that is visible to everyone (Romans 1:19-21

I submit this is double speak.

OK. Everyone is free to submit whatever they want.

You deny "determination" in free will (which really isn't free at all) but your "will" made the choice of what sox you would put on. Therefore we can conclude, if you are permitted to put on your choice, that you made a determination.

You clearly misunderstood my point. Free will is the FREEDOM to choose between options. You have, like so many others, transferred the determination of choice to the FREEDOM to choose.

FREEDOM has no power to do anything. In fact, FREEDOM doesn't DO anything.

FREEDOM allows one to DO things. Not determines what one does.

Since you determined to wear that color that day. The english word "Determine" is a verb - which means = To cause something to happen in a particular way". Man makes many such decisions throughout life.

Sure. I make a choice. I determine something. But that's not free will. That's my will making a choice. I can make a choice because I had options from which to choose. But the FREEDOM to choose isn't a verb, and doesn't DO anything. That's where you and so many others go wrong.

However, if God decides otherwise, then you put on something else because God is the determinate factor. Simple science - cause and effect. God is the "CAUSE" and man is the "EFFECT".

So you think God is that interested in your sox color, huh.

To illustrate the opposite condition, let's think of a communist country where the govt gives you a pair of sox each day. You have NO choice in the matter about color or even size. The govt determines that. Therefore, you have NO FREE WILL. iow, you have NO FREEDOM.

As it relates to Salvation - we can state the following: Man's fallen "will" may choose to confess Christ as Savior but God's choice reigns supreme.

Man is free to believe the promise of God regarding salvation. Does that make man his own savior? Obviously not. But calvinists have a very hard time understanding this.

A man, in regards to Salvation, is not the determinate cause and thus the effect is Salvation

It should be obvious to everyone that God's plan is to save those who believe. That makes God the obvious cause of salvation.

iow, God does the saving. Man's believing doesn't cause salvation.

rather God is the determinate cause and the effect is Salvation for that man.

God making such a determination was settled in Eternity past, before the foundation of the world.

Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of the eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus, (consult John CH. 10 on the Shepherd of the sheep)
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good thing to do his will, working in us that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In v.4, who are the "us" in He chose us?

You then gave the following Scripture on the subject of "will":

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You rightly pointed out, that this revelation of God was by what was seen in nature. It represents no spiritual understanding.

Because God's very existence isn't about "spiritual understanding". Why would you think that?

This is because the natural fallen man is spiritually depraved.

Not true. The natural man is spiritually dead. There's a big difference between deprraved and dead.

Verse 21 does not say that fallen mankind made a choice to not glorify God nor give thanks - it states a fact of mans fallen condition; that he did not glorify God or give thanks.

Excuse me, but the fact that v.21 says that man is without excuse PROVES that man makes a choice.

Paul outlined what our natural heart desires:

Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Are you even aware of what Paul was doing here? He was quoting 6 OT verses about the various ways men sin. To prove or illustrate his point in v.9 that both Jew and Gentile alike are all UNDER SIN. Then he gives examples.

This is why one must be "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit (Born Again)

No it's NOT. You are only making a 'construct' to support your talking points.

Do you believe that regeneration precedes faith?

in order to move towards God and His Christ.

One "moves toward God and His Christ" WHEN one recognizes that God exists as Creator and becomes thankful to Him (Rom 1:19-21).

{QUOTE]You then said: It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Ephesians 2:5 and 8 teach no such thing.[/QUote]
They do, but it appears that you cannot understand it. Or just don't want to.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

I color code different words in v.5. The two phrases "quickened us" and "have been saved" are equated. They are about the same thing. iow, you can't have one without the other. They go together.

Then, in v.8 we find the exact same phrase "by grace you have been saved", followed by THOUGH FAITH.

While you obviously have missed the obvious point here, the 2 words "through faith" prove that faith precedes both regeneration and salvation.

'QUOTE]Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Verse 8, shows that once again believers are saved by God's GRACE (going back to verse 4), by means of faith.

Thank you for making my point. Salvation is BY MEANS OF FAITH. iow, the faith must be present BEFORE regeneration and salvation occur.

But before one is so foolish to think this is human faith, which all possess, the writer is inspired to say: that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Once again magnifying that spiritual faith is the effect of it's object.

Not even close. The "it", being the gift of God, is salvation, NOT "God's" faith.

But you are right about human faith. All do possess it. And it is by exercising our humanf faith that God saves us.

Rom 10:10 says "man believes with his heart". That's human faith, which all possess.

This God given faith is imparted to the one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

If you had a clearly worded verse that says this, I would believe it. But you don't and you know it. What you do have is "construct". iow, you're just making up stuff.

 

[awelight]

OK. Everyone is free to submit whatever they want.


You clearly misunderstood my point. Free will is the FREEDOM to choose between options. You have, like so many others, transferred the determination of choice to the FREEDOM to choose.

FREEDOM has no power to do anything. In fact, FREEDOM doesn't DO anything.

FREEDOM allows one to DO things. Not determines what one does.


Sure. I make a choice. I determine something. But that's not free will. That's my will making a choice. I can make a choice because I had options from which to choose. But the FREEDOM to choose isn't a verb, and doesn't DO anything. That's where you and so many others go wrong.


So you think God is that interested in your sox color, huh.

To illustrate the opposite condition, let's think of a communist country where the govt gives you a pair of sox each day. You have NO choice in the matter about color or even size. The govt determines that. Therefore, you have NO FREE WILL. iow, you have NO FREEDOM.


Man is free to believe the promise of God regarding salvation. Does that make man his own savior? Obviously not. But calvinists have a very hard time understanding this.


It should be obvious to everyone that God's plan is to save those who believe. That makes God the obvious cause of salvation.

iow, God does the saving. Man's believing doesn't cause salvation.


Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?


In v.4, who are the "us" in He chose us?


Because God's very existence isn't about "spiritual understanding". Why would you think that?


Not true. The natural man is spiritually dead. There's a big difference between deprraved and dead.


Excuse me, but the fact that v.21 says that man is without excuse PROVES that man makes a choice.


Are you even aware of what Paul was doing here? He was quoting 6 OT verses about the various ways men sin. To prove or illustrate his point in v.9 that both Jew and Gentile alike are all UNDER SIN. Then he gives examples.


No it's NOT. You are only making a 'construct' to support your talking points.

Do you believe that regeneration precedes faith?


One "moves toward God and His Christ" WHEN one recognizes that God exists as Creator and becomes thankful to Him (Rom 1:19-21).

{QUOTE]You then said: It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Ephesians 2:5 and 8 teach no such thing.

They do, but it appears that you cannot understand it. Or just don't want to.


Thank you for making my point. Salvation is BY MEANS OF FAITH. iow, the faith must be present BEFORE regeneration and salvation occur.


Not even close. The "it", being the gift of God, is salvation, NOT "God's" faith.

But you are right about human faith. All do possess it. And it is by exercising our humanf faith that God saves us.

Rom 10:10 says "man believes with his heart". That's human faith, which all possess.


If you had a clearly worded verse that says this, I would believe it. But you don't and you know it. What you do have is "construct". iow, you're just making up stuff.[/QUOTE]

Your answers show extreme confusion about what I said and what Scripture teaches. So much so, I am at a point where I should just give up. But I will take a few of your statements:

You said: Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?

Absolutely, I believe God chose all that will believe in the Covenant of Redemption. Not one more nor one less will believe. This is the Sovereignty of God in action. You obviously ignored the verses I gave previously in John. They are the prooftext:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. (The sheep are a particular group - The Elect of God. Settled by the Father in the Eternal covenant mentioned in Eph. 1:4, Heb. 13:20, before the foundation of the World.)
John 6:36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Every part of these verses point to a particular group of people. John 6:40 says: For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The ones believing on Him are exactly the same as the ones given to Christ by the Father. This is the only way you can harmonize the two verses, 39&40. Those Given to Christ = those believing on Him. But let's continue.

John 6:43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

Again, NO MAN can come to Christ on his/her own volition. That person must be "given" by the Father and "Drawn" to Him. The "drawing" is by the new heart given that individual in Regeneration by the Holy Spirit, before that one believes because it is a secret work by the Holy Spirit upon the Elected person. (Jn. 3:7&8).
Eze_11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Let's continue:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

Here Christ mentions that it is the Spirit that makes one alive, harmonizing with what He told Nicodemus in Ch. 3. We are also told HE knew from the BEGINNING who they were that believed. How did He know this? 1.) Because He was God. 2.) Because He knows His sheep, which harmonizes with John Ch. 10.

So let's go on:

John 6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
John 6:66 Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

In John verse 65 our Lord said "For this cause....." What cause? The one highlighted in blue from verse 64, He repeats for the second time "No man can come to me...." This information, given by the Lord and written in John, is constituted as "a hard saying" and it is. Only God's Elect will except it as Biblical Truth. As for the religionist and others, we see what happened to them in verse 66.

But let us not stop here... let's go to Christ's High Priestly prayer in John 17:

John 17:1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee:
John 17:2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that whatsoever thou hast given him, to them he should give eternal life.
John 17:6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:

I think that is enough. I could have gone to other books of the Bible as well but wanted to keep the subject within one writer. The things to notice in Christ's High Priestly prayer are:

1.) He prayed for His people - the ones the Father gave to Him. (v.2)
2.) That these people came out of the World. (v.6)
3.) That Christ prayed not for the World. (v.9)

The end results of teaching or witnessing for these great truths is in the following verse of the prayer.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[awelight]

OK. Everyone is free to submit whatever they want.


You clearly misunderstood my point. Free will is the FREEDOM to choose between options. You have, like so many others, transferred the determination of choice to the FREEDOM to choose.

FREEDOM has no power to do anything. In fact, FREEDOM doesn't DO anything.

FREEDOM allows one to DO things. Not determines what one does.


Sure. I make a choice. I determine something. But that's not free will. That's my will making a choice. I can make a choice because I had options from which to choose. But the FREEDOM to choose isn't a verb, and doesn't DO anything. That's where you and so many others go wrong.


So you think God is that interested in your sox color, huh.

To illustrate the opposite condition, let's think of a communist country where the govt gives you a pair of sox each day. You have NO choice in the matter about color or even size. The govt determines that. Therefore, you have NO FREE WILL. iow, you have NO FREEDOM.


Man is free to believe the promise of God regarding salvation. Does that make man his own savior? Obviously not. But calvinists have a very hard time understanding this.


It should be obvious to everyone that God's plan is to save those who believe. That makes God the obvious cause of salvation.

iow, God does the saving. Man's believing doesn't cause salvation.


Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?


In v.4, who are the "us" in He chose us?


Because God's very existence isn't about "spiritual understanding". Why would you think that?


Not true. The natural man is spiritually dead. There's a big difference between deprraved and dead.


Excuse me, but the fact that v.21 says that man is without excuse PROVES that man makes a choice.


Are you even aware of what Paul was doing here? He was quoting 6 OT verses about the various ways men sin. To prove or illustrate his point in v.9 that both Jew and Gentile alike are all UNDER SIN. Then he gives examples.


No it's NOT. You are only making a 'construct' to support your talking points.

Do you believe that regeneration precedes faith?


One "moves toward God and His Christ" WHEN one recognizes that God exists as Creator and becomes thankful to Him (Rom 1:19-21).

{QUOTE]You then said: It is God who gives new birth to those who believe. As Eph 2:5 and 8 show, salvation and regeneration are preceded by faith.

Ephesians 2:5 and 8 teach no such thing.

They do, but it appears that you cannot understand it. Or just don't want to.


Thank you for making my point. Salvation is BY MEANS OF FAITH. iow, the faith must be present BEFORE regeneration and salvation occur.


Not even close. The "it", being the gift of God, is salvation, NOT "God's" faith.

But you are right about human faith. All do possess it. And it is by exercising our humanf faith that God saves us.

Rom 10:10 says "man believes with his heart". That's human faith, which all possess.


If you had a clearly worded verse that says this, I would believe it. But you don't and you know it. What you do have is "construct". iow, you're just making up stuff.[/QUOTE]

You also made the following observation:

I said: But before one is so foolish to think this is human faith, which all possess, the writer is inspired to say: that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Once again magnifying that spiritual faith is the effect of it's object.

You said: Not even close. The "it", being the gift of God, is salvation, NOT "God's" faith.

Trying to be nice here but I can see you are not a Greek grammatical student. The "it" you referred to is not Salvation. Here is the verse again:

Eph_2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The greek word here under discussion is not "it" ( "It" was supplied by the translators and is not in the Greek Manuscripts) but rather the word translated "that" from the Greek word τοῦτο, pronounced touto. This word "that" is connected to the word "faith" (πίστις). Thus it answers the question - What is not of ourselves? The answer "faith". Good ole' regular human faith. This agrees best grammatically and Theologically, since saying "that" is connected to "have been saved" will not stand the test.

However, to be fair, there are some who believe it goes back to the word "grace". Therefore, "grace" is "that" which is not of yourselves. In my personal studies I believe it to be connected to "faith" and so do: Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom.

I hope that is helpful to you.

 

[awelight]

I think how you could read what I said and actually think I was only focusing one way is quite offensive,


your right, it is all god, but not the arminian view and not the fatalistic view of calvinism.




so it is calvinism or it is false?


dude I was speaking about a lot of threads, not just this one, this thread just became another calvinist hate vs pro calvinist thread.

You said: "so it is calvinism or it is false?"

One should never hang the Truth of God on anyone man. I would say: "So it is the Truth of God or it is false." If it is not supported by the Scriptures it is Heresy.

And by the by, I was not offended by any of your points - I am not that thinned skinned. What I have found on this chat board though, is that so many have been attacked for what they have posted that they become defensive. These individuals, who seem to not be able to control their emotions, then damage their own arguments.

Another observation is, that way, way too many people do not really read and give serious thought to what is being posted. Instead their reactions are more like --- it's a Calvinist --- ATTACK, or it's an Arminian --- bombs away.

One should just state the Biblical facts and verses and let things fall wherever they may. God will use Truth and error for His own purposes. Whether they be for enlighten or to condemn.

One thing does bother me a little, when I see you use the word God and type it as "god". More respect for the Divine, please. Just messing with you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said: "so it is calvinism or it is false?"

One should never hang the Truth of God on anyone man. I would say: "So it is the Truth of God or it is false." If it is not supported by the Scriptures it is Heresy.

And by the by, I was not offended by any of your points - I am not that thinned skinned. What I have found on this chat board though, is that so many have been attacked for what they have posted that they become defensive. These individuals, who seem to not be able to control their emotions, then damage their own arguments.

Another observation is, that way, way too many people do not really read and give serious thought to what is being posted. Instead their reactions are more like --- it's a Calvinist --- ATTACK, or it's an Arminian --- bombs away.

One should just state the Biblical facts and verses and let things fall wherever they may. God will use Truth and error for His own purposes. Whether they be for enlighten or to condemn.

One thing does bother me a little, when I see you use the word God and type it as "god". More respect for the Divine, please. Just messing with you.

I agree ne should hang onto the truth

but in a discussion about the word, we should not say it is the truth, and that truth is calvinism, or that truth is Arminianism, or if you do not agree with me, you disagree with god

the issue is people are calling people arminians because they do not hold to calvinism, and people are called calvinists because they believe in eternal security,

that’s why these arguments are getting old

i am niether calvinist or arminian, I reject both views yet I am called a calvinist by those who hate eternal security, and at the same time an arminain by people because I believe in free will

and then we wonder why these conversations lead to no where and outright frustration

it’s old. I miss the good ole days when we just sat and shared the word of God and did not try to put everyone in our little excel spreadsheets amd claim we know what they are and what they believe

look at the few in here who are attacking each other, they have no idea what the other believes yet they refuse to ad it it.
it’s sad and gives God a bad name

 

[fredoheaven]

Well, everybody must discuss scripture...

 

[brightfame52]

freegrace2

OK. Everyone is free to submit whatever they want.

Oh really, says what scripture ? Please provide it.

In the mean time, scripture says the natural carnal man, his mind is enmity against God and is not subject to God, and indeed cant be Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The word subject here is hypotassō :

1. to arrange under, to subordinate
2. to subject, put in subjection
3. to subject one's self, obey
4. to submit to one's control
5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
6. to obey, be subject

So man naturally is not free to submit to God, in fact he cant do it ! Hes by nature a slave to sin !

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your answers show extreme confusion about what I said and what Scripture teaches. So much so, I am at a point where I should just give up. But I will take a few of your statements:

You said: Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?

Absolutely, I believe God chose all that will believe in the Covenant of Redemption.

And yet you call me confused. So what verse says that God chooses who will believe? None. You are confused.

Not one more nor one less will believe. This is the Sovereignty of God in action. You obviously ignored the verses I gave previously in John.

I REJECT your very poor exegesis of the verses that you wrongly think teach that God chooses who will believe. That is nothing more or less than puppetry/robotic theology. I DO reject that.

They are the prooftext:

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. (The sheep are a particular group - The Elect of God. Settled by the Father in the Eternal covenant mentioned in Eph. 1:4, Heb. 13:20, before the foundation of the World.)

More confusion here. Jesus mentioned "My sheep", "those who are not My sheep", "other sheep of Mine" and "the sheep". So the words "the sheep" mean ALL of the sheep. iow, Christ died for everyone. Your view is quite unbiblical.

John 6:36 But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not.
John 6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Every part of these verses point to a particular group of people. John 6:40 says: For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The ones believing on Him are exactly the same as the ones given to Christ by the Father. This is the only way you can harmonize the two verses, 39&40. Those Given to Christ = those believing on Him. But let's continue.

John 6:43 Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.

Again, NO MAN can come to Christ on his/her own volition.

It is obvious that you either can't comprehend v.45 or just don't want to. EVeryone will be taught by God. And eveyrone who listens and learns from the Father COMES TO ME. But you just don't want to see that listening and learning are choices.

Or maybe you never went to school. But I did. And there were those who listened and learned and those who never paid attention. All are individual choices.

Let's continue:

John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

Here Christ mentions that it is the Spirit that makes one alive, harmonizing with what He told Nicodemus in Ch. 3. We are also told HE knew from the BEGINNING who they were that believed. How did He know this? 1.) Because He was God. 2.) Because He knows His sheep, which harmonizes with John Ch. 10.

There's NOTHING in the verse so far that teach that God chooses who will believe.

But let us not stop here... let's go to Christ's High Priestly prayer in John 17:

John 17:1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee:
John 17:2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that whatsoever thou hast given him, to them he should give eternal life.
John 17:6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:

I think that is enough.

Oh yeah. You've clearly proven that you don't understand what you have been reading.

You still have NO VERSES that support your horrible robotic/puppetry theology.

I think you are beyond reason here. The simple truth of Scripture is that by the grace of God salvation has appeared to everyone (Titus 2:11). People can either believe it or reject it. God is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

Those who are condemned are the ones who "have not believed", per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

Apparently you are ignorant of the fact that the Bible clearly states that men "refuse to believe" and "refuse to repent". Those are choices that man makes, not God.

You have shown clearly that you do NOT understand anything about God's sovereignty.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You also made the following observation:

I said: But before one is so foolish to think this is human faith, which all possess, the writer is inspired to say: that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Once again magnifying that spiritual faith is the effect of it's object.

You said: Not even close. The "it", being the gift of God, is salvation, NOT "God's" faith.

Trying to be nice here but I can see you are not a Greek grammatical student. The "it" you referred to is not Salvation. Here is the verse again:

Eph_2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The greek word here under discussion is not "it" ( "It" was supplied by the translators and is not in the Greek Manuscripts) but rather the word translated "that" from the Greek word τοῦτο, pronounced touto. This word "that" is connected to the word "faith" (πίστις). Thus it answers the question - What is not of ourselves? The answer "faith".

Check the gender of the words. The word "saved" is masculine, the word "grace" is feminine and the word "faith" is feminine. The phrase "it is of God" is masculine. So, salvation is of God, not faith. Do your research.

I hope that is helpful to you.

How could your puppet/robot theology be helpful to anyone?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said: Are you suggesting that God chooses who will believe?

Absolutely, I believe God chose all that will believe in the Covenant of Redemption. Not one more nor one less will believe. This is the Sovereignty of God in action.

What you apparently don't understand is that IF IF IF you are right about this, then there is NO NEED FOR EVANGELISM.

Yeah, yeah, I know the calvinist answer. We are commanded to evangelize. Sure. But if God has already chosen who will believe, there is NOTHING anyone can do or not do could change that.

And Paul's answer to the jailer was FALSE if your claim here is true. He should have answered "there's NOTHING you can do to be saved. God already chose who would believe on His Son.

Again, such puppet/robot theology is totally unbiblical.

 

[awelight]

Check the gender of the words. The word "saved" is masculine, the word "grace" is feminine and the word "faith" is feminine. The phrase "it is of God" is masculine. So, salvation is of God, not faith. Do your research.


How could your puppet/robot theology be helpful to anyone?

I agree with you on the gender argument. If you had fully read my post and considered it, then you would have seen that "that" by grace you have been saved, is considered correct by some. However, the controversy remains to this day by Greek Scholars. Simply put, I fall on the other side of the argument. NOT that I deny by gender, the word "that" is connected to "having been saved" but the immediate antecedent is the word "faith".

You are not rejecting this idea on the basis of a grammatical argument but upon a predisposed Theological basis. In other words, the idea that "faith that saves" is God given, messes up your Theology that a person first believes then is born again. However, this shows confusion about the two phases of Salvation. 1.) Regeneration and 2.) Conversion. God is responsible and He alone for "regeneration", this is the new birth. The result of the new birth is that one is made alive from death. This one now has a "fleshy heart" instead of a "stony heart" This one is now equipped with "seeing eyes" and "hearing ears". this one also has a spiritually discerning mind. God GIVES and man RECEIVES. What God GIVES is always RECEIVED. For God's Eternal Purpose never returns to Him void.

These four things: 1.) Fleshy heart, 2.) Seeing eyes, 3.) Hearing ears and 4.) Discerning mind - prepares the individual for a genuine "Conversion" experience. Just like Lydia, in the book of Acts, was prepared before hand for the message.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that is worshipping God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

The verb tenses here are very important. 1.) Lydia is worshipping (A verb - present middle participle. 2.) She was hearing the Gospel message (A verb - imperfect active indicative). 3.) Because her heart had been opened (A verb - aorist active indicative) So if we put the verb tenses in the proper order, we see regeneration first - The Lord opened her heart - as an aorist verb, translated "opened", it emphasizes "point action in the PAST". Additionally, as a 3rd. person singular - the action of "opening" was from the Lord as the "active" agent. NOT 1st. person which means Lydia would have opened her own heart. Therefore, this verb shows undeniably that Lydia was acted upon and was not the actor.

Now that she had been regenerated in the past (Maybe a couple hours ago or perhaps seconds before - this cannot be proven), she began a "Conversion" experience. She heard the Gospel message and was worshipping God. In response to her beginning her conversion experience, she requested to be Baptized. Acts 16:15a And when she was baptized,.....

A person has only one Regeneration but many conversions. In regeneration, there is a once and for all "saving Grace". This is a believers "Positional" standing before God. Christ's finished work has redeemed he/she. Conversions to the Truth, speak to the believers "Condition" before God and fellow believers.

You probably won't like what I have said here. But my only desire, is to help those who are attempting to get closer to the Truth. For the Love of God and the brethren are based on the Truth of God and nothing else.

2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;
2Jn 1:2 for the truth's sake which abideth in us, and it shall be with us for ever:
2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy, peace shall be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoice greatly that I have found certain of thy children walking in truth, even as we received commandment from the Father.

 

[awelight]

And yet you call me confused. So what verse says that God chooses who will believe? None. You are confused.


I REJECT your very poor exegesis of the verses that you wrongly think teach that God chooses who will believe. That is nothing more or less than puppetry/robotic theology. I DO reject that.


More confusion here. Jesus mentioned "My sheep", "those who are not My sheep", "other sheep of Mine" and "the sheep". So the words "the sheep" mean ALL of the sheep. iow, Christ died for everyone. Your view is quite unbiblical.


It is obvious that you either can't comprehend v.45 or just don't want to. EVeryone will be taught by God. And eveyrone who listens and learns from the Father COMES TO ME. But you just don't want to see that listening and learning are choices.

Or maybe you never went to school. But I did. And there were those who listened and learned and those who never paid attention. All are individual choices.


There's NOTHING in the verse so far that teach that God chooses who will believe.


Oh yeah. You've clearly proven that you don't understand what you have been reading.

You still have NO VERSES that support your horrible robotic/puppetry theology.

I think you are beyond reason here. The simple truth of Scripture is that by the grace of God salvation has appeared to everyone (Titus 2:11). People can either believe it or reject it. God is pleased to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21).

Those who are condemned are the ones who "have not believed", per John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12.

Apparently you are ignorant of the fact that the Bible clearly states that men "refuse to believe" and "refuse to repent". Those are choices that man makes, not God.

You have shown clearly that you do NOT understand anything about God's sovereignty.

Mankind - because of the resulting state after the fall of Adam, chooses yes BUT can only choose those things which are at enmity with God. Mankind's fallen nature will not allow choices that are towards the light and salvation. It is against his/her very nature, according to Scripture.

Joh_1:5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
Joh_3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Eph 5:8 for ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light
Col 1:13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;

When Paul wrote about being "darkness" in Eph. 5:8, he was not talking about being a little dark or sometimes dark... he was saying, in our natural state, we were darkness. We were complete darkness, all the time. It is illogical, to think that something which was darkness, would one day move towards the light, since light destroys darkness and no one in their right mind would make a choice that would move them towards something that will expose and destroy their nature.

This is why it was necessary for God to Elect some to salvation. If he had not... then no one would have been saved. ONLY through the New Birth - Regeneration - is the will effected in such away as to go against it's old nature in favor of the new nature. This is logical, that now having a new nature, the individual moves in accordance to it's desires and it's desires are Godward.

Apart from this - I am dumbfounded how one can here the Word of God and not see the simple Truth therein. You saw the many verses in John's Gospel which said "NO MAN is able to come to me...." and "I lay down my life for the sheep...." and yet you deny particular redemption and the Father's work in giving to the Son and in regeneration.

I did not say these things and they are not my opinion. The Lord said them and the meanings are clear and easy to understand. Easy that is for the one who has grace. I accept what the Lord said is Truth and make no attempt to water it down or try to find passages of Scripture that seem to contradict it. If the Lord did not mean what He said in those passages - then pray tell what did He mean?

You wanted verses and I have given them too you but you have ignored them by presenting other arguments from other writers of other letters. Can we please stay within the context.

 

[awelight]

I agree ne should hang onto the truth

but in a discussion about the word, we should not say it is the truth, and that truth is calvinism, or that truth is Arminianism, or if you do not agree with me, you disagree with god

the issue is people are calling people arminians because they do not hold to calvinism, and people are called calvinists because they believe in eternal security,

that’s why these arguments are getting old

i am niether calvinist or arminian, I reject both views yet I am called a calvinist by those who hate eternal security, and at the same time an arminain by people because I believe in free will

and then we wonder why these conversations lead to no where and outright frustration

it’s old. I miss the good ole days when we just sat and shared the word of God and did not try to put everyone in our little excel spreadsheets amd claim we know what they are and what they believe

look at the few in here who are attacking each other, they have no idea what the other believes yet they refuse to ad it it.
it’s sad and gives God a bad name

Could not agree with you more. All the name calling and finger pointing is unfortunate. It seems we live in a day and age where the art of civil discussion has long since disappeared. I have strong convictions about what I believe the Scriptures teach and I can come on pretty strong in my arguments for them, however I still see no reason to be ugly toward another person's view. Just state the facts of Scripture and let things fall as the Lord may have them to fall.

I simply try to do what I hope will bring glory to God and Honor my Lord. Therefore as commanded, I witness and expose error.

1Jn_4:6 We are of God: he that is knowing God is hearing us; he who is not of God is hearing us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.