How to be Born Again

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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Ephesians 2:5 and 8 teach no such thing.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, quickened us together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:


Our state was outlined by Paul in verses 2&3. Verses 5&6 prove the three things God did for His chosen ones while they were still dead. FIRST - He quickened us. (This is the New Birth - to quicken means to be made alive). SECOND - He raised us up. Thirdly - He made us sit. God caused ALL three and His chosen ones received ALL three. In verse 5 - "....(by grace have you been saved), magnifies the mercy of God on His people. What Scripture calls GRACE (see verse 4).

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Verse 8, shows that once again believers are saved by God's GRACE (going back to verse 4), by means of faith. But before one is so foolish to think this is human faith, which all possess, the writer is inspired to say: that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Once again magnifying that spiritual faith is the effect of it's object. This God given faith is imparted to the one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Again ---- the CAUSE must be God (The Father), and the effect is on the believer, in regeneration, to move that one by faith towards Christ (The Son). (see John 6:37, 44; 10:15; 17:6).
As per Context:

Point No. 1) None indication of “chosen ones’

Here in the context, we have no reference point of ‘chosen one’ but rather the scriptures saith ‘who were dead in trespasses and sin’. Exactly what Paul wrote in the book of Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned…” and actually there’s no difference at all between the Jews and Gentile “…for we have been proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” Romans 3:9-10.

Point No. 2 ) “GRACE” is not the subject.

The subject matter in Ephesians 2 is about SALVATION and how can one receive it. Verses 1-3 spoke of the reality of human nature, specifically the Ephesian believers of their “time past” (v3), following verses 4-5 speaks of God’s love and mercy and grace are the basis of obtaining ‘salvation through Christ.” For love is of God, mercy and grace as well through Christ. Romans 6:23 says the Gift of God is salvation.

Point No. 3 No impartation of faith being spoken.

Faith in here is not being referenced to the Gift of God. Faith is the medium of obtaining salvation as it comes by the hearing of the word of God. (Romans 10:17). Romans 4:5 speaks well of Abraham's faith as “his faith”.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,392
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Excerpts from Romans 5:

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. (5:1-2)

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (5:6-8)

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." (5:9-11)

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" (5:15)

"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." (5:18)

"The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (5:20-21)

The whole chapter is excellent to explain the reason we need Christ, and how we can only find salvation through him who died for us!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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I agree with you on the gender argument. If you had fully read my post and considered it, then you would have seen that "that" by grace you have been saved, is considered correct by some. However, the controversy remains to this day by Greek Scholars. Simply put, I fall on the other side of the argument. NOT that I deny by gender, the word "that" is connected to "having been saved" but the immediate antecedent is the word "faith".

You are not rejecting this idea on the basis of a grammatical argument but upon a predisposed Theological basis. In other words, the idea that "faith that saves" is God given, messes up your Theology that a person first believes then is born again. However, this shows confusion about the two phases of Salvation. 1.) Regeneration and 2.) Conversion. God is responsible and He alone for "regeneration", this is the new birth. The result of the new birth is that one is made alive from death. This one now has a "fleshy heart" instead of a "stony heart" This one is now equipped with "seeing eyes" and "hearing ears". this one also has a spiritually discerning mind. God GIVES and man RECEIVES. What God GIVES is always RECEIVED. For God's Eternal Purpose never returns to Him void.

These four things: 1.) Fleshy heart, 2.) Seeing eyes, 3.) Hearing ears and 4.) Discerning mind - prepares the individual for a genuine "Conversion" experience. Just like Lydia, in the book of Acts, was prepared before hand for the message.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that is worshipping God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

The verb tenses here are very important. 1.) Lydia is worshipping (A verb - present middle participle. 2.) She was hearing the Gospel message (A verb - imperfect active indicative). 3.) Because her heart had been opened (A verb - aorist active indicative) So if we put the verb tenses in the proper order, we see regeneration first - The Lord opened her heart - as an aorist verb, translated "opened", it emphasizes "point action in the PAST". Additionally, as a 3rd. person singular - the action of "opening" was from the Lord as the "active" agent. NOT 1st. person which means Lydia would have opened her own heart. Therefore, this verb shows undeniably that Lydia was acted upon and was not the actor.

Now that she had been regenerated in the past (Maybe a couple hours ago or perhaps seconds before - this cannot be proven), she began a "Conversion" experience. She heard the Gospel message and was worshipping God. In response to her beginning her conversion experience, she requested to be Baptized. Acts 16:15a And when she was baptized,.....

A person has only one Regeneration but many conversions. In regeneration, there is a once and for all "saving Grace". This is a believers "Positional" standing before God. Christ's finished work has redeemed he/she. Conversions to the Truth, speak to the believers "Condition" before God and fellow believers.

You probably won't like what I have said here. But my only desire, is to help those who are attempting to get closer to the Truth. For the Love of God and the brethren are based on the Truth of God and nothing else.

2Jn 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;
2Jn 1:2 for the truth's sake which abideth in us, and it shall be with us for ever:
2Jn 1:3 Grace, mercy, peace shall be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
2Jn 1:4 I rejoice greatly that I have found certain of thy children walking in truth, even as we received commandment from the Father
.
Very well stated !
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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You obviously have no idea what regeneration is. Regeneration occurs when God's Holy Spirit fixes your heart by filling your heart with the same love shared by the Father and Son, makes us part of the body of Christ, makes us one with the Father and Son, and we become the Father's adopted children. We are either in the flesh or in the Spirit, regenerate or unregenerate, saved or unsaved. I notice that many people on CC have a head knowledge of salvation but judging from their responses, are clearly not filled with the Holy Spirit of God. These are people who try to intimidate new members by threatening banning, calling them Calvinist, trying to appear that they have understanding but are lacking in one of the main ingredients for salvation and that is the gift of the Holy Spirit which brings understanding.
Which verse says we become the Father's adopted children ?
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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As per Context:

Point No. 1) None indication of “chosen ones’

Here in the context, we have no reference point of ‘chosen one’ but rather the scriptures saith ‘who were dead in trespasses and sin’. Exactly what Paul wrote in the book of Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned…” and actually there’s no difference at all between the Jews and Gentile “…for we have been proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.” Romans 3:9-10.

Point No. 2 ) “GRACE” is not the subject.

The subject matter in Ephesians 2 is about SALVATION and how can one receive it. Verses 1-3 spoke of the reality of human nature, specifically the Ephesian believers of their “time past” (v3), following verses 4-5 speaks of God’s love and mercy and grace are the basis of obtaining ‘salvation through Christ.” For love is of God, mercy and grace as well through Christ. Romans 6:23 says the Gift of God is salvation.

Point No. 3 No impartation of faith being spoken.

Faith in here is not being referenced to the Gift of God. Faith is the medium of obtaining salvation as it comes by the hearing of the word of God. (Romans 10:17). Romans 4:5 speaks well of Abraham's faith as “his faith”.
I am not going to fully reply to this because I have already made many more points on the subject of faith, salvation regeneration and conversion, as they relate to being born again.

If you are really interested, then I would suggest you look them up.

However I will briefly state on your points:

1 ) Chosen ones are herein implied. Who was the letter written too? Believers in Ephesus, not the lost. Therefore, who are the "WE" and "US" of these verses? The active believers in Ephesus and by association - God's Elect. A few verses follow on Election:

Mat_24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them?
Rom_8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that is justifying;
1Th_1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
2Pe_1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:


2 ) Grace is certainly the subject because grace and salvation are heavily intertwined. No grace -- no salvation. The bestowal of Grace is salvation.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom_3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom_5:21 that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom_11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.


3 ) This part of your reply contains a well known prooftext for those who believe in this Doctrine. You posted: Faith in here is not being referenced to the Gift of God. Faith is the medium of obtaining salvation as it comes by the hearing of the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

This verse is used by those who believe in "Gospel Regeneration" and not that "Regeneration" is the secret work of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:3-10) One could spend several posts on proving how the Gospel regenerists are wrong in this view, which I will not do. let's just say, that ones "Conversion" comes through the vehicle of faith and putting ones trust on God and His Truth. This faith is increased the more one is exposed to the Truth.

However, one must first possess a "fleshy heart" (The new heart given in regeneration which brings that one from death to life. It also gives that one seeing eyes and hearing ears.) This is the new birth - it will happen in time to every person that was elected in eternity. Election guaranteed this and the new birth applies the "Positional sanctification" of that one before God. The assurance of Salvation.

Let's look closely at this portion of Scripture:

Paul previously had made the distinction between Israel (Rom 9:6), that not all of Israel was Israel. He therefore made the distinction between "National Israel" (Physical) and Elect Israel (spiritual), the true seed of Abraham. He furthers his point by showing that the physical Israel could not hear the message because they were not Israel, the true seed of Abraham.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But who are these people that will call upon the Lord?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who hath believed our report?


Why did they not believe. They were in the presents of the Gospel like those who did believe? This verse alone shoots down the idea of "Gospel Regeneration". They did not believe because they could not hear. Having not the new birth, they did not possess hearing ears and a discerning mind, (1 Cor. 2:12-14). They still possessed that ole' heart of stone and were still darkness.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


So the exercise of faith comes from the ability to hear and that which is heard must be the Word of God. Abraham is in the great faith chapter of Heb. 11, along with many, many others. However, they all have one thing in common. They had been called by God earlier in their lives and had been believers for many years. Each one of them, whether it was Enoch, Noah, Abraham or Moses were called at a given time by God to fulfill God's purpose.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses said, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.


The Gospel message had stretched to the ends of the World but those who did not possess the ability to hear and apply God's message, did not and indeed could not.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and said, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

This is exactly how the new birth happens. The Holy Spirit comes and quickens those who at that time are not seeking Christ nor asking about Him. After the new birth, their old nature and darkened will now becomes a new nature and a will that desires the light. That new nature, which includes a new form of faith, hungers and thirsts after the things of God.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people

National Israel, will remain with the veil over their eyes until the last days. Only then will God pour out the Spirit of regeneration upon them.

Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

Sorry --- longer answer than I intended. Often, that is the way it is with the Word of God.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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1 ) Chosen ones are herein implied. Who was the letter written too? Believers in Ephesus, not the lost. Therefore, who are the "WE" and "US" of these verses? The active believers in Ephesus and by association - God's Elect. A few verses follow on Election:

Mat_24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them?
Rom_8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that is justifying;
1Th_1:4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
2Pe_1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:

I am having no problem that this letter was to the believers at Ephesus but inserting the word –“God’s Elect” is nowhere be found in the context. The “WE” and “US” of those verses stated their PAST. Are you saying that they were classes of people in their sinning state? That these were ELECT sinners? As far as the Bible is concerned “ALL ARE SINNERS. The prooftexts you’ve shown like in Matthew as per context refer to Israel during the Great Tribulation and can be understood based on their context. Luke and Romans 8 refer to same Israel. 1 Thes. Refers Election is to SERVICE- work of faith, labour of love and patience of hope (v3), ensamples to all that believe (v7), in every place YOUR faith to God-ward is spread abroad (v8) and many more in the context would refer to as POST Salvation and not pre-salvation. Yet, in 1 Peter 1:10 seems the order is God’s calling then election. Actually, these are no weight to undermine the point I made.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,336
757
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2 ) Grace is certainly the subject because grace and salvation are heavily intertwined. No grace -- no salvation. The bestowal of Grace is salvation.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom_3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom_5:21 that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom_11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
We know that Grace leads to salvation and it the way God operates. It is his grace that we saved by faith and that is HOW a person is SAVED. Paul is actually explaining how we are SAVED or how to be SAVED and the answer is through grace by faith. Justification, righteousness, grace are interwoven general words for SALVATION.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,336
757
113
3 ) This part of your reply contains a well known prooftext for those who believe in this Doctrine. You posted: Faith in here is not being referenced to the Gift of God. Faith is the medium of obtaining salvation as it comes by the hearing of the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

This verse is used by those who believe in "Gospel Regeneration" and not that "Regeneration" is the secret work of the Holy Spirit. (John 3:3-10) One could spend several posts on proving how the Gospel regenerists are wrong in this view, which I will not do. let's just say, that ones "Conversion" comes through the vehicle of faith and putting ones trust on God and His Truth. This faith is increased the more one is exposed to the Truth.

However, one must first possess a "fleshy heart" (The new heart given in regeneration which brings that one from death to life. It also gives that one seeing eyes and hearing ears.) This is the new birth - it will happen in time to every person that was elected in eternity. Election guaranteed this and the new birth applies the "Positional sanctification" of that one before God. The assurance of Salvation.

Let's look closely at this portion of Scripture:

Paul previously had made the distinction between Israel (Rom 9:6), that not all of Israel was Israel. He therefore made the distinction between "National Israel" (Physical) and Elect Israel (spiritual), the true seed of Abraham. He furthers his point by showing that the physical Israel could not hear the message because they were not Israel, the true seed of Abraham.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But who are these people that will call upon the Lord?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias said, Lord, who hath believed our report?


Why did they not believe. They were in the presents of the Gospel like those who did believe? This verse alone shoots down the idea of "Gospel Regeneration". They did not believe because they could not hear. Having not the new birth, they did not possess hearing ears and a discerning mind, (1 Cor. 2:12-14). They still possessed that ole' heart of stone and were still darkness.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


So the exercise of faith comes from the ability to hear and that which is heard must be the Word of God. Abraham is in the great faith chapter of Heb. 11, along with many, many others. However, they all have one thing in common. They had been called by God earlier in their lives and had been believers for many years. Each one of them, whether it was Enoch, Noah, Abraham or Moses were called at a given time by God to fulfill God's purpose.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses said, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.


The Gospel message had stretched to the ends of the World but those who did not possess the ability to hear and apply God's message, did not and indeed could not.

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and said, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

This is exactly how the new birth happens. The Holy Spirit comes and quickens those who at that time are not seeking Christ nor asking about Him. After the new birth, their old nature and darkened will now becomes a new nature and a will that desires the light. That new nature, which includes a new form of faith, hungers and thirsts after the things of God.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people

National Israel, will remain with the veil over their eyes until the last days. Only then will God pour out the Spirit of regeneration upon them.

Eze_36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

Sorry --- longer answer than I intended. Often, that is the way it is with the Word of God.
Good reference point there on Romans 10 and other scripture but you have ignored the main point I have made. I believe the best commentary is what Paul wrote in reference to the Gift and he refers to it as the Gift of Eternal Life and that is Salvation as found in Romans 6:23. Need only a brief comment to really counterpoint. Thanks.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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I am having no problem that this letter was to the believers at Ephesus but inserting the word –“God’s Elect” is nowhere be found in the context. The “WE” and “US” of those verses stated their PAST. Are you saying that they were classes of people in their sinning state? That these were ELECT sinners? As far as the Bible is concerned “ALL ARE SINNERS. The prooftexts you’ve shown like in Matthew as per context refer to Israel during the Great Tribulation and can be understood based on their context. Luke and Romans 8 refer to same Israel. 1 Thes. Refers Election is to SERVICE- work of faith, labour of love and patience of hope (v3), ensamples to all that believe (v7), in every place YOUR faith to God-ward is spread abroad (v8) and many more in the context would refer to as POST Salvation and not pre-salvation. Yet, in 1 Peter 1:10 seems the order is God’s calling then election. Actually, these are no weight to undermine the point I made.
Your reply is unnecessarily misleading and confusing. You ignore the verses on election as if they were not there and go to a point about a singular verse that does not include the word election, as if this really clarifies something. You talk about election as a calling to service and yet, in the verses I presented it is obvious that the elect are a group of selected individuals. There is nothing there to imply the idea that they were elected to some kind of service. It is clear they are God's people.

Mat_24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that is justifying;

How could you read these verses and come up with the idea that election is to service? Unless you mean election is to the service of God, in which case I would agree, since every person saved by Grace will worship and serve God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,020
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Good reference point there on Romans 10 and other scripture but you have ignored the main point I have made. I believe the best commentary is what Paul wrote in reference to the Gift and he refers to it as the Gift of Eternal Life and that is Salvation as found in Romans 6:23. Need only a brief comment to really counterpoint. Thanks.
Is there some reason you are italicizing your posts?

It makes them a little more difficult to read
:cry:
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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Good reference point there on Romans 10 and other scripture but you have ignored the main point I have made. I believe the best commentary is what Paul wrote in reference to the Gift and he refers to it as the Gift of Eternal Life and that is Salvation as found in Romans 6:23. Need only a brief comment to really counterpoint. Thanks.
Romans 6:23 is a wonderful verse full of good news but it certainly will not help one come to any understanding of Biblical Doctrine.

I appreciate you see the merit of the verses I gave in my argument but it saddens me to realize you got nothing from it.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Your reply is unnecessarily misleading and confusing. You ignore the verses on election as if they were not there and go to a point about a singular verse that does not include the word election, as if this really clarifies something. You talk about election as a calling to service and yet, in the verses I presented it is obvious that the elect are a group of selected individuals. There is nothing there to imply the idea that they were elected to some kind of service. It is clear they are God's people.

Mat_24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Rom_8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that is justifying;


How could you read these verses and come up with the idea that election is to service? Unless you mean election is to the service of God, in which case I would agree, since every person saved by Grace will worship and serve God.
And yet they are not part of the context we are discussing.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Romans 6:23 is a wonderful verse full of good news but it certainly will not help one come to any understanding of Biblical Doctrine.

I appreciate you see the merit of the verses I gave in my argument but it saddens me to realize you got nothing from it.
Umm, discuss the scripture. Romans 6:23 is a sure foundation in the discussion about the reality of God's gift.
 

awelight

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And yet they are not part of the context we are discussing.
I will grant you that but why is this not the way to study the Scriptures?

1 ) You cannot come to understand any Doctrine from a single verse of Scripture.
2 ) A verse of Scripture must be first analyzed in it's immediate context.
3 ) Analyzed in it's overall Biblical context.

This is how sound doctrine is formed not in cherry picking particular verses that sound good to the writer. To truly come to an understanding of God's Word, we must also accept the verses that go counter to our first beliefs and those that a hard to hear. With the help of the Holy Spirit, and much diligent study, one hopes to weave the Scriptures to a completed tapestry. One doctrine at a time.
 

awelight

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Umm, discuss the scripture. Romans 6:23 is a sure foundation in the discussion about the reality of God's gift.
It is but not the ability to obtain it - herein lies the subject - How to be born again or as I have been arguing - it doesn't quite work that way. There is no "I" in being born again. There is only the great "I am".