How to defeat Calvinism

[GraceBeUntoYou]

First, allow me to point out, that I’ve already commented on 2 Peter 3:9, which can be found on page one of this discussion ( http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/14434-how-defeat-calvinism.html ). In short, the ‘us’ in 2 Peter 3:9 is in reference to the ‘beloved,’ the elect. The ‘all’ in 2 Peter 3:9 is in reference to all of the elect that have not yet come to repentance, and turned to the Lord. In regards to Revelation 20:17, there is no such verse.

Acts 17:30

‘Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,’ – Acts 17:30
​

Allow me to be the first to say, I agree entirely. God commands every man, everywhere to repent. However, that does not mean He gives every man the ability to do so. Repentance is a gift from God. No man can repent least God grants Him that gift:

‘Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,’ – 2 Timothy 2:25

‘God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.’ – Acts 5:31

“When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, ‘So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.’” – Acts 11:18
​

God commands men to do things that they can not possibly do on their own accord. For example, God commanded Israel to obey the entire Law, that is, 613 commandments. But I ask you, what man has ever kept the whole Law? What man has ever been justified by the Law? God commanded men to obey the entire Law, though, none of them ever could.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

John 8:28

‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.’– John 8:28

Read the remainder of John 8, and listen to what Jesus goes onto say,

"'But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father' They said to Him, 'We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.' Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.'"
​

If God were their Father, they would love Christ, but they do not love Christ, and God is not their Father, for they are the sons of the devil. What is being said in John 8 is echoed in John 10. John 10:22-30 says,

'At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’
​

Why do they not believe Christ? Because they are not of God, they are not of His flock. His sheep hear His voice, and He gives eternal life to them [the sheep]. However, as addressed before, not all ‘Christians’ are sheep. Matthew 7 says that there are some that call Christ ‘Lord, Lord’ that will not enter into heaven, because they are really ravening wolves disguised in sheep’s clothing. They didn’t lose their salvation… no, they never had it to begin with.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Revelation 13:8

‘All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.’ – Revelation 13:8
​

When Jesus said in Matthew 4:7 (which you cited), “…On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'" Was He referring to something that was currently written, or that had been written previously? It’s obvious that it was written previously, as Deuteronomy 6:16 says, ‘You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah.’

The same goes with Matthew 4:6, which is quoting Psalm 91:11-12. The same goes with Matthew 4:10, with reference to Deuteronomy 6:13, and Deuteronomy 10:20. Nearly every verse you cited was in reference to something that was already written, not currently written, or to be written in the future – past tense, not present tense.

I’m not too sure what you’re asking about in regards to Revelation 13:8. Nor am I certain of what you’re trying to prove with this text. But if what you are suggesting is that the whole world will worship Jesus, even those who were not written in the book of life, then I must point out, that’s not what this text is saying. Who is the ‘him’ mentioned in Revelation 13:8? I’ll give you a hint. It’s certainly not Jesus. Revelation 13:1-8 says,

And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, ‘Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?’ There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
​

The ‘him’ in Revelation 13:8 is the son of perdition, the beast. All those who were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (past tense) will worship ‘him,’ the beast. Those who are found written in the Book of Life will not worship the beast.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Revelation 3:5

Revelation does not imply that a name can be erased, it teaches the exact opposite. But in order to see this, we have to read it in regards to the rest of the text.

"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
​

The Greek term ‘ou,’ which is translated here as ‘not’ (‘…I will not erase his name from the book of life…’) can also be translated as ‘never,’ as the ESV translates it. Revelation 3:5 is a promise, a promise that the saints will ‘not,’ will ‘never’ be erased from the Book of Life. When Christ says, ‘…but you are dead,’ He is speaking of the unregenerate body. Those in the white garments are His saints, and whoever is clothed in white garments will not be erased from the Book of Life, and will always and forever be there. Having your name written in the Book of Life from eternity past is what guarantees you a life of perseverance. This is shown in the explanation of Revelation 13:8, where it was noted that only those who were not found in the Book of Life were the ones that worship the beast. Likewise, as John 6:35-45 puts it,

“Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.’ Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ‘I am the bread that came down out of heaven.’ They were saying, ‘Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven?’ Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.’”​

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

John 8:28

‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.’– John 8:28

Read the remainder of John 8, and listen to what Jesus goes onto say,

"'But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father' They said to Him, 'We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.' Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.'"
​

If God were their Father, they would love Christ, but they do not love Christ, and God is not their Father, for they are the sons of the devil. What is being said in John 8 is echoed in John 10. John 10:22-30 says,

'At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’
​

Why do they not believe Christ? Because they are not of God, they are not of His flock. His sheep hear His voice, and He gives eternal life to them [the sheep]. However, as addressed before, not all ‘Christians’ are sheep. Matthew 7 says that there are some that call Christ ‘Lord, Lord’ that will not enter into heaven, because they are really ravening wolves disguised in sheep’s clothing. They didn’t lose their salvation… no, they never had it to begin with.

Seemed as if some of John 8 got caught off, the 6th sentence in the first quotation should read, 'You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.'

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Seemed as if some of John 8 got caught off, the 6th sentence in the first quotation should read, 'You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.'

Seemed as if some of John 8 got CUT [not 'caught''] out

 

[Servantofiam]

Do Arminianists even read the Calvinist posts? No one is debating free will, the problem is Calvinists beleive what the bible says, that no one is good, and all have turned away from God. We do have free will, we use it to reject God in favor of sin. That's not the debate. Arminians say evil and sinful man is still good enough to come to God without the work of the Holy Spirit. Calvinist say God causes the sinner to repent through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Arminianism promotes that Jesus didn't die for new born child who die, they go to heaven because they haven't transgressed the law. This claim goes against scripture. No flesh will be justified by the law. So Arminianism must concede that a newly born child that dies goes to hell which then promotes that God is unfair because that soul never got a chance to repent. How does Arminianism respond to this?
Did Jesus die for everyone and is He the ONLY way or is there a different means on salvation for those who don't get the chance to accept His offer?

 

[Servantofiam]

Gracebeuntoyou it's a pleasure to read your posts. It baffles me that the truth so blantantly pointed out could be so stubbornly rejected. Your post are truly inspired by the truth. I thank God for a brother such as yourself, keep listening to, learning from and sharing the truth given by the Spirit. God bless.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I would agree with you Dino, Mahogony, tends to rely on 'google' for his information without actually understanding. This can been seen by his erroneous posts and falsehoods.

Phil you would have to be blind if you can't see the errors in your own posts. As is typical of Calvinists or anyone who must push their certain brand of Christianity, I've come to the conclusion that you can't debate a topic - only the person you disagree with.

 

[MahogonySnail]

The irony is that you Calvinists are arguing against Arminianism...when the very purpose and reason why Arminianism came about was to correct something which could be misconstrued about Calvinism - that God was directly responsible for evil in the world. Therefore it may be said that "Arminianism came from Calvinism".

Here is what Arminius thought about Calvin, he was perhaps a little more gracious about his opponents than Calvin himself who called his enemies "dogs" :


"Next to the study of the Scriptures which I earnestly inculcate, I exhort my pupils to peruse Calvin's Commentaries, which I extol in loftier terms than Helmich himself (a Dutch divine, 1551-1608]; for I affirm that he excels beyond comparison (incomparabilem esse) in the interpretation of Scripture, and that his commentaries ought to be more highly valued than all that is handed down to us by the library of the fathers; so that I acknowledge him to have possessed above most others, or rather above all other men, what may be called an eminent spirit of prophecy (spiritum aliquem prophetiae eximium). His Institutes ought to be studied after the [Heidelberg] Catechism, as containing a fuller explanation, but with discrimination ( cum delectu), like the writings of all men"(History of Christian Church - Ch VIII).

 

[phil36]

Phil you would have to be blind if you can't see the errors in your own posts. As is typical of Calvinists or anyone who must push their certain brand of Christianity, I've come to the conclusion that you can't debate a topic - only the person you disagree with.

MMmmmmm ok.

Phil

 

[Servantofiam]

Adam or "mankind" Is responsible for sin, Satan is responsible for evil. God allows it all. If I allow you to hate me, am I responsible because I allowed it?

Mahogony snail answer me this, do new born children who die before being able to accept Jesus as their savior go to heaven or hell?

If you say they go to hell then God is unjust according to your interpretation of scripture

If you say they go to heaven then you break scripture which says no flesh will be justified by the law

Also you make two ways to get to heaven, when Jesus says He is the only way and there is no other way

Arminianism is wrong because it demands atleast one of the above answers

 

[MahogonySnail]

Adam or "mankind" Is responsible for sin, Satan is responsible for evil. God allows it all. If I allow you to hate me, am I responsible because I allowed it?

No one has the answer to this. Why did God allow evil etc etc. I think the bible teaches that God tempts no one with evil. I was always taught that evil "just happened". Evil " was found" in satan..and there began an unavoidable chain of consequences that God could have stopped, but chose not to in order to show His great love and mercy towards us all. Frankly, I think God's plan has something to do with showing satan and his angels who is boss. Humans are like pawns in the middle.

Mahogony snail answer me this, do new born children who die before being able to accept Jesus as their savior go to heaven or hell?

Well I've had about 20 years as a christian to form my opinions about this and I have to say that out of the options of a) all go to hell, b) go to heaven if younger than the age of accountability , c) go to heaven if water baptised, d) go to heaven if children of believing parents... e) depends if their parents were sinners or not (transferred sin from parent to child) .. + many more...

I disagree with all of them, but b), c), and d) have merit and biblical support. I think their souls are taken into the presence of the Lord, and in the resurrection they are resurrected, and taken care of and are raised by women and/or guardian angels until they reach full maturity.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father in Heaven.

If you say they go to hell then God is unjust according to your interpretation of scripture

A just God , or a just anyone, does not send people to hell for something they did or didn't do. THe problem with your view is - if you believe that we cannot love and choose God ourself, He must choose us first... to be consistent you must also believe that we cannot have hated God and choose satan ourself. Therefore we are basically puppets on a string, unaccountable for our choices, driven by some unseen force to either choose God or choose satan.

If you as an Irishman, were taken to court and sentenced to death for something you didn't do by your local authorities...would you accept your fate? Or would you complain? Would you say it is fair? If you can't see your local judge and jury doing this to you in your own society...how can you believe that a God who is infinitely more just and loving than any earthly human magistrate , can do the same thing to millions of people every day?

Perhaps if you are a father and have children...would you grab one of them indiscriminately, and whip their backside with a leather strap , when they did nothing to deserve it? Worse... when they are the nicest and most obedient child you ever had, and you still treat them poorly. That's basically how you view God. Seeing as you are only recently saved, I don't know who taught the gospel to you, or whether they taught you Calvinism from the start or you read about it and picked it up yourself later. But they have done you a great disservice so early in your walk with God to not communicate to you how much He loves not only you, but everyone else on the earth. Realising just how much God loves everyone, and does not pick and choose and is no respector of persons...surely will help you get off your high horse about being one of God's specially chosen 'elect'... and hopefully start listening to sound Christian doctrine for a change.

If you say they go to heaven then you break scripture which says no flesh will be justified by the law

The law does not apply to innocents. People who cannot be held accountable for their choices , or people who cannot make choices. So unfortunately your argument is moot.

Also you make two ways to get to heaven, when Jesus says He is the only way and there is no other way

When you say that a person is saved because they were chosen before they were born... the gospel and the cross and Jesus's death plays a lesser role in your salvation and theology. It should not. The cross and Christ crucified and the gospel are the only means by which God saves. In the church these things have always been the focus of christian thought. 5-point Calvinism takes something away from the cross and Christ crucified.

 

[MahogonySnail]

servantofiam , you can either follow a man, a theologian ,or Jesus Christ and the bible alone. Your choice.

 

[Servantofiam]

If you disagree with all of them then you're not arminian, because it has to be one. Ignorance is not an excuse

I didn't love God with all my heart all my soul and all my strength when I was born so I broke the first commandment and therefore broke the whole law

my arguement is moot only if you back up your claim with scripture not with what is logical in your own mind. Where does it say the law doesn't apply to innocents?

Calvinism is a complete acceptance of Gods word, and gives ALL the glory to Christ.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I didn't love God with all my heart all my soul and all my strength when I was born so I broke the first commandment and therefore broke the whole law

Let's get a few things straight. You are talking about Jewish Law yes? Well for your information Jews believed in an age of accountability. It was about age 12. Also, the responsibility for a child keeping the law rested with the parents not the child. Anyone with half a brain knows that you can't break a commandment that you can't keep in the first place. You try getting an infant to obey the 10 commandments see how you go.
I think God knows that infants cannot keep His Laws. He does not send anyone to hell who cannot keep His laws in the first place.

"ism's (catholicism, calvinism, arminianism, lutheranisms etc etc ) create shcisms" .

Let's not be ignorant of what Calvinism really is. Calvinism is a man-made theological system and tradition and is laregly legalistic and 'religious' (in the bad sense of the word). In that sense the only difference between you and a Roman Catholic is that you follow a different flavour of the same type of system. The only reason we have Calvinism is because people wanted to set up their own little piece of Roman-like power in Geneva, hence it was known as "protestant Rome". And Calvin was like a Pope.

As a theology, Calvinism has a warped understanding of God's sovereignty, love and grace. It also denies the existance of man's free will or choice. God created humans in his own nature as rational, thinking and intelligence decision-making capable creatures.

I'm not arminian or calvinist so you will find I don't fit into either camp exactly that's because I'm a bible following non-denominational Christ follower aka Christian as we're all supposed to be. I never studied the teachings of arminian or calvinist and decided one or the other made sense and so I will listen only to calvinists or arminians and reject all else.... no... everything I learnt comes from reading the bible.

 

[Servantofiam]

Protestant means protest, protest against the catholic church to be precise. And Calvinism, If you go back to it's roots it goes all the way back to Paul. It isn't a new doctrine it's an old one that has been covered up by the catholic church. Before you right off all ism's you should buy a book and study a few of these people, if they hadn't done what they had done you would never have been allowed to even read a bible. Don't hate those who died and were persecuted for Gods word. They gave up their lives for His word and His kingdom which is us.

 

[MahogonySnail]

And Calvinism, If you go back to it's roots it goes all the way back to Paul.

Quite a few beliefs do. Even unitarianism and Jehovah's Witnessism apparently. That's why they created the Nicene creed essentially.

It isn't a new doctrine it's an old one that has been covered up by the catholic church.

The catholic church condemned Pelagus as a heretic I believe. You also claim they covered up Calvinism as well. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Don't you find it strange that God would be capable of preserving his Word, but not the sound interpretations of that Word (which is the more important) ? Then again for an old doctrine that has always existed, it is incredibly hard to find historical proof for its origins except in the writings of Augustine. What should be clear is that there was no clear doctrine called Calvinism or anything like Calvinism in the early church. I think as I showed already it would have been closer to gnosticism/paganism than the christianity of the time.

Before you right off all ism's you should by a book and study a few these people and remember if they hadn't done what they had done you would never have been allowed to even read a bible.

I think the first english bibles were by Wycliffe in the 1380's. Well before Calvin. I think the first person to promote bible reading for the common people was Hus. You might think Calvin produced a nice clear cut unadulterated bible version for everyone to read. Actually it had Calvin's (and other reformer's) marginal footnotes all the way through it. This led the Church of England to produce their own bible version which we now know as the King James Version..which removed a lot of the Calvinistic bias (but did insert some of its own).
My point about the isms is..that God raises people up and uses them for his purposes. But I'm sure that God never intends folk like yourselves and others to add an 'ism' to their favourite theologian's name and start following them at the exclusion of all others. Calvin didn't die on the cross for you.

They gave up their lives for Gods word and His kingdom which is us.

Hopefully you realise that Calvinism came out of a time of turmoil, where religion and politics were mixed. Protestants were persecuting catholics and vice versa. Protestanst were persecuting other protestants and vice versa. For some reason, having a complete bible didn't stop the mayhem or result in unity. So when we talk about people giving up their lives for God's Word in this time period... the concept becomes incredibly blurred. Just who is the real christian and who is the real heretic in all of that? Considering they all did and said basically bad things about each other, yes even Calvin.

 

[Consumed]

doctrines of man, look to Jesus and His life, He sets the best example for us to follow, actually He is the example which to follow, to take up our cross and deny ourselves, prefer others over ourselves i thought, then again i could be wrong. We seem to think nowadays its called the "bless me club" and if you dont keep up with the Jones's(no disrespect if your last name is Jones) we must be out of kilter with God.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

servantofiam , you can either follow a man, a theologian ,or Jesus Christ and the bible alone. Your choice.

Oh, Calvinists do follow Jesus Christ. In fact, His words are like music to our ears, for we aren't the ones distorting His words. Hint, hint... 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.' I mean obviously, hello?