How to defeat Calvinism

[MahogonySnail]

Hint, hint... 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.'

Yes but this is not God choosing who will be and won't be saved before they are born. This drawing refers to the Gospel:

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The drawing is universal in application. As it applies to wherever the cross of Christ is preached. Not specific choice of one individual over another.


Yes you are the ones distorting His Words. That's why you can't interpret the bible without some of Calvins teachings or a Calvinists teachings beside you giving you a helping hand. I wonder if you lived before Calvin was born, who would you follow? Notice that Calvinism is a name of a man, followed by an ism. No one I know, including myself , who have studied the bible independently and without bias have come to a Calvinistic conclusion.

I notice the word "grace" in your nickname. Now grace means treating someone better than they deserve. That means that God must treat all sinners better than they deserve. Since all sinners deserve hellfire..then it means God must offer every sinner a chance to be saved from hellfire. If He doesn't, then He has no grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

There is a direct contradiction between the very definition of grace..and when a calvinist justifies God sending people to hell of no fault of their own just because "they deserve it". That's not grace at all.

 

[Consumed]

Hint, hint... 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.'
now i have always thought that God being God He knows when to reveal Himself to who and who He knows is no use bothering with to start with, some people are just outright pure evil manifested, by choice they are may i add, still we are commanded to love them too and pray for them, amen

 

[MahogonySnail]

To draw is like a wooing, a calling, an open invititation I believe.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Yes you are the ones distorting His Words. That's why you can't interpret the bible without some of Calvins teachings or a Calvinists teachings beside you giving you a helping hand. I wonder if you lived before Calvin was born, who would you follow? Notice that Calvinism is a name of a man, followed by an ism. No one I know, including myself , who have studied the bible independently and without bias have come to a Calvinistic conclusion.

I notice the word "grace" in your nickname. Now grace means treating someone better than they deserve. That means that God must treat all sinners better than they deserve. Since all sinners deserve hellfire..then it means God must offer every sinner a chance to be saved from hellfire. If He doesn't, then He has no grace.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

There is a direct contradiction between the very definition of grace..and when a calvinist justifies God sending people to hell of no fault of their own just because "they deserve it". That's not grace at all.

Notice the word 'appeared,' and continue reading on in Titus 2.

Titus 2:11-14,

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

The grace of God has appeared, the grace of God brings salvation, the grace of God trains us to renounce ungodliness and worldy passions, the grace of God gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness... the grace of God is none other than Jesus Christ! Did Jesus Christ bring salvation for all men? Because if He did, then no one goes to hell.

God has to offer everyone salvation? Really? Can you show me where that's taught in the Bible? God has grace on a particular group of people. Because if He had grace on everyone (grace is a free gift), then EVERYONE would be saved.

No, what you have is this,

"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.' Just as it is written, 'JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.' What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, 'I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.' So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.'" -- Romans 9:10-24

God has mercy on who He desires. He doesn't have to give any man any chance. You've sinned, God doesn't have to do anything to help you if He didn't want to. 'Oh, but he has to give us all a fair chance!' If He wants to save a few wretched people for His own glory, He has every right to do so. He doesn't have to save anybody, but He did, but only because He loves that particular group of people. God doesn't love everyone, and as a matter of fact, by looking around, i have a hard time understanding why God loves anybody, when I'd think He should hate everybody.

Where does Scripture ever teach that God HAS to give people a fair chance? Where does it ever teach, 'now just choose Jesus'? Please show me, I'd like to know. Oh, that's right, they don't exist.

 

[MahogonySnail]

God has to offer everyone salvation? Really? Can you show me where that's taught in the Bible?

Be happy to:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

God has grace on a particular group of people. Because if He had grace on everyone (grace is a free gift), then EVERYONE would be saved.

If God does not offer his salvation to every person then He is not a God of grace, period. He would also be a respector of persons, which we know the bible says is not true. The fact that not everyone is saved is not because God's grace is short, but because not everyone is willing to receive it.

God's grace can be rejected /frustrated:

Gal 2:21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

No, the Greek term for 'draws' is 'helkuo,' which is a verb, an action, which literally means 'to draw,' or 'to drag.' God the Father drags, He draws men to Christ.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Romans 9:10-24

God has mercy on who He desires. He doesn't have to give any man any chance. You've sinned, God doesn't have to do anything to help you if He didn't want to. 'Oh, but he has to give us all a fair chance!' If He wants to save a few wretched people for His own glory, He has every right to do so. He doesn't have to save anybody, but He did, but only because He loves that particular group of people. God doesn't love everyone, and as a matter of fact, by looking around, i have a hard time understanding why God loves anybody, when I'd think He should hate everybody.

First of all the whole point of Romans 9 is about God choosing to save the gentiles as well as the Jews. Universal in application. It does not say that God chooses individuals to be saved and others to be ****ed, especially now that God has provided us a way to heaven through Jesus Christ.

God doesn't love everyone, and as a matter of fact, by looking around, i have a hard time understanding why God loves anybody, when I'd think He should hate everybody

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world ....
Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
1Jn 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

Where does Scripture ever teach that God HAS to give people a fair chance? Where does it ever teach, 'now just choose Jesus'? Please show me, I'd like to know. Oh, that's right, they don't exist.

Here is one, Peter told them effectively to "just choose Jesus" :

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Note : Peter did not say to them, as the Calvinist might say "You can't do anything, you have to be one of the elect" .


He doesn't have to give people a fair chance. But we know that He already has in Christ. So why should you say that is offered to some but not others? Who are you really to make that judgement call?

If you believe God is as loving and graceful and merciful as I do... he will give people a fair chance. Unless you don't believe God is fair and just? I thought this should have been a no-brainer if you have truly encountered and experienced the living God of the bible. He is pure love. It should be a no-brainer given the strong evangelistic focus of the new testament. It should be obvious that when God opened the door not only to Jews but also to Gentiles..this was not God saying he has just opened up an exclusive golf club for the elect Calvinist who thinks himself saved... it is God opening the way to not just Jew, but to Gentiles..and that being every Gentile on the face of the earth.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Let's take a look at the fruit which came out of Calvins heart, and test it if it is godly or not:

Calvin wrote, "whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly

incur their very guilt."

"If he(Servetus) comes(to Geneva), I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."

In Geneva, on October 27, 1553, Michael Servetus was tied to a stake and was burned slowly to death.



Sebastian Castellio wrote against what Calvin did to Servetus and wrote:


"To kill a man is not to defend a doctrine. It is to kill a man!"



I don't want to be biased I know Luther said pretty terrible things too:


"They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill

a mad dog!"


"If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I

baptize thee in the name of Abraham'."



Was Luther a godly and holy man?:


"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day."



The bible says:


1Jn 3:15 ....And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him.





That's why I personally refuse to identify myself with any doctrine or religion which bears the name of these men. Such words and hatred can only come from men who are hungry with power, elitist, and controlling and manipulative. That's the true origins of your doctrines dear Calvinist. Not the bible.

 

[Shwagga]

No, the Greek term for 'draws' is 'helkuo,' which is a verb, an action, which literally means 'to draw,' or 'to drag.' God the Father drags, He draws men to Christ.

And that same Greek word is found in:
John 12:32 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


It says draw not drag. If it meant drag it would say drag. Graceuntoyou do you disagree with the accuracy of God's written Word?

 

[Consumed]

amen, who are we to say who is and wont be saved anyway for the Fathers heart desires is that NONE should perish, yet many are called and few are chosen

 

[MahogonySnail]

That is the Father's heart for anyone who truly knows the Father yes amen. Christ never rejected anyone who came to Him or told them they were going to hell because the Father chose them to.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Be happy to:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Goyeintoalltheworld,andpreachthegospeltoeverycreature.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.





If God does not offer his salvation to every person then He is not a God of grace, period. He would also be a respector of persons, which we know the bible says is not true. The fact that not everyone is saved is not because God's grace is short, but because not everyone is willing to receive it.

God's grace can be rejected /frustrated:

Gal 2:21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!

That is the worst treatment I've ever seen anybody ever use of Scripture, besides that recent post you did on 2 Peter 3:9, maybe that's the worst. I just corrected you on Titus 2:11, and have constantly corrected the misuse of 2 Peter 3:9. Where did you ever learn to read? The Bible isn't just a book full of quotes you get to pull out of thin air. That's like me taking something you wrote, such as, 'If God does not offer his salvation to every person then He is not a God of grace, period,' and trimming a few words off, making you say, 'He is not a God of grace, period.' If I were to let a verse stand by itself without the context, I could make an argument for flying cows, space monkeys, little green space martians, and magical little fairies.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

And that same Greek word is found in:
John 12:32 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Yes, because the term for 'draw' is a verb, an action. God is 'drawing' people to Christ, and also the same word that is found in Acts 16:19, 'But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,'

And again in Acts 21:30, 'Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.'

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

First of all the whole point of Romans 9 is about God choosing to save the gentiles as well as the Jews. Universal in application. It does not say that God chooses individuals to be saved and others to be ****ed, especially now that God has provided us a way to heaven through Jesus Christ.




Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world ....
Rom 5:8 But God commends His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
1Jn 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.




Here is one, Peter told them effectively to "just choose Jesus" :

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Note : Peter did not say to them, as the Calvinist might say "You can't do anything, you have to be one of the elect" .


He doesn't have to give people a fair chance. But we know that He already has in Christ. So why should you say that is offered to some but not others? Who are you really to make that judgement call?

If you believe God is as loving and graceful and merciful as I do... he will give people a fair chance. Unless you don't believe God is fair and just? I thought this should have been a no-brainer if you have truly encountered and experienced the living God of the bible. He is pure love. It should be a no-brainer given the strong evangelistic focus of the new testament. It should be obvious that when God opened the door not only to Jews but also to Gentiles..this was not God saying he has just opened up an exclusive golf club for the elect Calvinist who thinks himself saved... it is God opening the way to not just Jew, but to Gentiles..and that being every Gentile on the face of the earth.

Have you read the post on this exact same board where I discuss John 3:16?

Allow me to post it for you,

"What you should realize in regards to John 3:16 is that in order to see ‘kosmos’ referring to the elect, you first must come to the understanding that there is no Greek counterpart/equivalent for the English term ‘whosoever’ -- none, nada, zero – does not exist! In fact, according to the Greek, the author didn’t use ‘whosoever’ or any other variations of this English word anywhere in this text. Some translations say ‘whoever’ instead of the traditional ‘whosoever.’ Might I add, that even the term ‘whoever’ (Greek: ‘hos an’), which is used in Romans 10:13, was not used by the author in John 3:16. The term ‘whoever’ translates from the Greek ‘hos an,’ but what we have here in John 3:16 isn’t ‘hos an,’ rather, ‘pas ho pisteuoon.’ ‘Pas ho’ literally means ‘all the,’ or ‘every the.’ ‘Pisteuoon’ (a form of ‘pisteuo’) means ‘believing.’ Given that, the text actually says, ‘all the believing.’ All the believing will be gifted with eternal life, not whosoever wills.

With that being said, the term ‘whosoever’ is a 13th century English possessive pronoun, which the KJV uses, and never meant ‘whoever wills’ as it means in today’s modern English (‘whoever wants to come to the picnic, can come’). Rather, the term ‘whosoever’ refers to certain qualities/traits of a group, or of a certain individual. For example, ‘whoever possesses these traits will be hired’ or ‘whoever has green skin will get a free car.’ Not ‘whosoever wills to have green skin will get a free car.’

Keep in mind that in John 3, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jew. ‘God so loved the world…,’ meaning, God loves also Gentiles, the ‘world’ in the eyes of a Jew – people from every tribe, tongue, and nation (Revelation 14:6, Revelation 5:9), the children of God spread abroad (John 11:51-52, ‘Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad’). Likewise, 1 John 2:2 was addressed to Jewish believers: ‘and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours [the Hebrew] only, but also for those of the whole world [Gentiles].’ "

 

[Shwagga]

Yes, because the term for 'draw' is a verb, an action. God is 'drawing' people to Christ, and also the same word that is found in Acts 16:19, 'But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,'

And again in Acts 21:30, 'Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.'

Right, I wasn't arguing the definition of the word, but good examples of the usage of the word. I was trying to convey the message of God drawing all to Himself.

 

[Consumed]

its ok in the bigger scheme of things, to me its more of a case of "is the glass of water half full or half empty" we are all given free will to exchange and encourage the brethren daily, lets keep the encouragement in the fact that Jesus is our saviour

 

[imoss]

Nothings stopping God, whats stopping US!!!! God gave that we would receive, free will is a gift as well as a burdon I'm sure to the Lord as most use their free will to reject God. Look around you, how many have TRULY received the Lord? Perhaps you would have God revoke free will? I'm curious about who exactly is saved in your opinion?

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Nothings stopping God, whats stopping US!!!! God gave that we would receive, free will is a gift as well as a burdon I'm sure to the Lord as most use their free will to reject God. Look around you, how many have TRULY received the Lord? Perhaps you would have God revoke free will? I'm curious about who exactly is saved in your opinion?

Free will, or those in the free will camp say that God wants to save everybody, but can’t actually save anybody, and in fact, salvation totally depends on mans own will-power. But, I believe in a God that actually saves, and that it's totally dependent on whom He has mercy on.

As Romans 9:15-20 says, "For He says to Moses, 'I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.' So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it?"

 

[Shwagga]

Have you read the post on this exact same board where I discuss John 3:16?

Allow me to post it for you,

"What you should realize in regards to John 3:16 is that in order to see ‘kosmos’ referring to the elect, you first must come to the understanding that there is no Greek counterpart/equivalent for the English term ‘whosoever’ -- none, nada, zero – does not exist! In fact, according to the Greek, the author didn’t use ‘whosoever’ or any other variations of this English word anywhere in this text. Some translations say ‘whoever’ instead of the traditional ‘whosoever.’ Might I add, that even the term ‘whoever’ (Greek: ‘hos an’), which is used in Romans 10:13, was not used by the author in John 3:16. The term ‘whoever’ translates from the Greek ‘hos an,’ but what we have here in John 3:16 isn’t ‘hos an,’ rather, ‘pas ho pisteuoon.’ ‘Pas ho’ literally means ‘all the,’ or ‘every the.’ ‘Pisteuoon’ (a form of ‘pisteuo’) means ‘believing.’ Given that, the text actually says, ‘all the believing.’ All the believing will be gifted with eternal life, not whosoever wills.

With that being said, the term ‘whosoever’ is a 13th century English possessive pronoun, which the KJV uses, and never meant ‘whoever wills’ as it means in today’s modern English (‘whoever wants to come to the picnic, can come’). Rather, the term ‘whosoever’ refers to certain qualities/traits of a group, or of a certain individual. For example, ‘whoever possesses these traits will be hired’ or ‘whoever has green skin will get a free car.’ Not ‘whosoever wills to have green skin will get a free car.’

Keep in mind that in John 3, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jew. ‘God so loved the world…,’ meaning, God loves also Gentiles, the ‘world’ in the eyes of a Jew – people from every tribe, tongue, and nation (Revelation 14:6, Revelation 5:9), the children of God spread abroad (John 11:51-52, ‘Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad’). Likewise, 1 John 2:2 was addressed to Jewish believers: ‘and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours [the Hebrew] only, but also for those of the whole world [Gentiles].’ "

"Whosoever" isn't as much of the issue of John 3:16 but rather your understanding of the word "world" or "kosmos" in the Greek, in which "kosmos" never once, ever refers to the "Elect" alone, which is an objection I raised in a previous post -

Because we have Scripture like Acts 2, Romans 10, where Peter and Paul both quote the prophet Joel when he so clearly says "And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites."

The phrase is כל אשר in Joel 2:32, or in the Hebrew scriptures it's Joel 3:5,and the phrase is literally translated "any man", absolutely anyone who calls on His name shall be saved. So once again, we have plenty of other scripture that can support "whosoever", but the main problem here is "world" or "kosmos" which you claim means only the elect. I would really appreciate one passage where "kosmos" refers to the Elect alone, thank you.

Blessings.