How We Can Tell If We Possess The Agape of God

[Phoneman-777]

You have to question ,why your so passionate about it ? Its not out of love is it ? lol . Most people who hold to works salvation are most angry people you can meet .

I don't know...why was Jesus so passionate about the lies taught in the name of religion in His day?

Oh right...because religious lies lead people to the Lake of Fire.

BTW, I don't preach "works salvation" and the most vile, evil, hate-filled, unlawful, disrespectful people in church are the OSAS/Antinomianist crowd who claim to have a corner on the market of love and compassion and tolerate every stripe and type of sin EXCEPT the person who shows up calling sin by it's rightful name: that's when their claws, fangs, horns, and all the other attributes of their father the devil come out.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Matt 24 is about the end times, and speaks about enduring to the end of tribulation to have yur physical life saved, has nothing to do with eternal salvation

however, how can we tell?

we become christlike

so when you going to become more christlike and not more pharisee like?

You've argued that in the past, and I've corrected you already by saying it's got nothing to do with "saving the physical body".

Jesus, as well as the other Biblical authors always told us don't worry what men may do to our physical bodies, but for some reason in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus needs to tell us that our physical bodies are going to be OK?

 

[Phoneman-777]

yeah one is a verb and the other a noun.

same root; same meaning.

No, the verb "agapao" means "to love" - something anyone can do. However, it is the ROOT of "agape" which means MORE THAN just "to love" -- it means "to love with Godly, unconditional love".

That is why you don't find a single instance where the wicked are shown to possess or practice "agape".

I've told you that before, that the two words are not only different types (the one a noun, the other a verb), but they mean DIFFERENT things, and that shouldn't be hard for you to understand.

 

[Phoneman-777]

well, you're wrong because you pretend the noun form of a verb is not the same meaning as the verb.

so, with that in mind, knowing that you will not listen to reason, let me show you something anyway that i've already shown you and you already rejected ((because you aren't actually interested in the truth, no matter how well you pretend and puff)):

A new commandment I give to you, that you love ((agapao)) one another; as I have loved ((agapao)) you, that you also love ((agapao)) one another. ​

By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love ((agape)) for one another.”​

(John 13:34-35)​

​

you say the verb is wildly different than the noun.
Christ commands us to carry out the verb.
Christ pretty clearly indicates they are exactly the same thing.

so. i guess you are smarter than God, huh.

((that is, if you are correct, but you're not -- you only make this argument in order to threaten Christians with loss of salvation, so as to make God evil, giving merely temporary illusion of life and lying by calling it eternal))

at any rate what's commanded is agapao, the verb, the thing you say only non-believers have.
weird huh.

I pretend nothing. The verb "agapao" is the ROOT for "agape" which means they mean two different things; the one "to love" and the other "to love with Godly, unconditional love".

Please stop trying to redefine one of the most basic Biblical truths of Scripture: that the opposite of "agape" is "selfishness" and for some reason, you think children of the Devil are capable of anything but selfishness when SELFISH PRIDE is what started all the trouble in heaven.

Do the wicked "love" as God "loves" them? No. Your argument is invalid, unless you can show just one passage where "agape" is shown to be partaken of by the wicked...which you know you can't, friend

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You've argued that in the past, and I've corrected you already by saying it's got nothing to do with "saving the physical body".

Jesus, as well as the other Biblical authors always told us don't worry what men may do to our physical bodies, but for some reason in Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus needs to tell us that our physical bodies are going to be OK?

all you did was give your opinion

matt 24 is about the great tribulation. Where Jesus will put and end because if he does not no flesh would survive, Jesus does it for the sake of the elect,

he who endures to the end (until Christ returns) will survive

it’s called context,, you should try it sometimes

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, the verb "agapao" means "to love" - something anyone can do. However, it is the ROOT of "agape" which means MORE THAN just "to love" -- it means "to love with Godly, unconditional love".

That is why you don't find a single instance where the wicked are shown to possess or practice "agape".

I've told you that before, that the two words are not only different types (the one a noun, the other a verb), but they mean DIFFERENT things, and that shouldn't be hard for you to understand.

Your almost there

its why he who sins has never seen God or known God, because they are incapable of love

it’s also why he who has been born of God can not sin, because they have been born of God

we love because God loves us first, those born of God experienced Gods love and had their needs taken care of, they no longer NEED to serve self. It’s why they can not continue in sin

 

[Phoneman-777]

so you admit that love is love, but you say to actually love someone isn't anywhere near as true as merely 'having love' for them?

i feel like you're telling us to strive to do no works.

Is English your first language? I never said anything of the kind. I said "agapao" means "to love" but "agape" is "Godly, unconditional love".

Good thing you ain't a meteorologist because you don't seem to understand that even though it's all snow, there's a big difference between a a snow flurry and a blizzard just like the difference between "agapao" and "agape".

 

[Ogom]

I would stop saying it if you OSAS LICENSE TO SIN PSUEDO-CHRISTIANS WOULD FIND JUST ONE VERSE THAT SAYS THE WICKED POSSESS OR PRACTICE "AGAPE" so until you all do, I'll keep saying it and there ain't a thing you can say Scripturally against it - have mercy, what does it take for you guys to condemn something other than a Christian who tells you the truth?
You don't know a thing about me, but I know what you've stated publicly: that breaking the Ten Commandments does not result in the Lake of Fire for those who do, but John says those who believe and practice religion as you do are liars who have zero truth in them.
The OSAS definition of "love" is "God will forgive me so I'll just keep doing it", which is "presumptuous sins" which David said those who practice that will be found guilty of the "Great Transgression".

If you love God will you have other gods before Him? Worship images? Blaspheme? Of course not. Jesus said if we love Him, we'll keep His commandments, the same ones He spoke at Sinai and called "My Law".
But, you refuse to keep the seventh day Sabbath - and on this your "love" stands exposed for what it really is: empty words.

Human spirit is (our) your perception of reality. Two versions available, man/beast/dead or God/Love/Alive.

The spirit of the heart (perception) directs the mind/soul/conscious.

#90

it may also direct the directions of one's religious/spiritual beliefs and of 'hangups' religiously and of spirit, or non-Christ spirit (pseudo/lesser-Spirit maybe) i would think. the more dead/sinful, the more one would want that to be ok. the more interested and/or wanting to do what is better, right, and godly as opposed to our own thing/carnal/worldly -- then the more one's beliefs can/or might be formed, builded, morphing and growing quite differently.

 

[Phoneman-777]

wow man did you even read your references?


in 2 Kings 4:34 the cold, dead boy, representing you is brought to life, waxing warm, by the prophet, representing Christ - not in any way whatsoever by his own works or merit! he's dead! pure mercy! he didn't warm himself up and he didn't stay dead owing to his coldness!
in Revelation 3:16 Christ desires that they be either cold or hot, rather than lukewarm. here being cold is good !


dude.
these are the kinds of verses you don't want to bring up when your thesis is the damnation of believers.
friendly advice: it will suit your case better to think more clearly about your arguments before you post them. you look silly refuting yourself; that's the point where you backspace or hit the little 'delete draft' button and reconsider what in the world you're doing.

endurance is endurance in faith. not endurance in works.

Yes, a cold, dead body was brought back to life, first warm, then a sweltering 98.7 degrees.

See what I did there? I showed you "cold" agape is about as useless as a "cold" cadaver.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Take up Your Cross

36 A man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ 37 Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38 and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.…


"of his own household" -- of his own self, mind, life, and heart ? . ? .

Sounds like the kind of love that Jesus wants us to have so that we can be citizens of heaven is way more intense than the indifferent, selfish love manifested by the wicked.

 

[Phoneman-777]

posthuman just schooled you in language, even better than i did a while back.

you can ignore that, but we all see it.

Posthuman and you remind me of Westcott and Hort -- they felt qualified to rewrite the Bible, too.

 

[Phoneman-777]

all you did was give your opinion

matt 24 is about the great tribulation. Where Jesus will put and end because if he does not no flesh would survive, Jesus does it for the sake of the elect,

he who endures to the end (until Christ returns) will survive

it’s called context,, you should try it sometimes

You are ignoring the entire context of the NT!

I ask you, how much time did Jesus spend preaching about people being saved "eternally" and how much time did He preach about people being saved "physically"? I think the ratio is something like "3 1/2 years to ZERO"

Matthew 24:12-13 KJV is Jesus contrasting the eternal fate of those who were once filled with hot agape but allowed iniquity to chill that agape cold and dead -- with those who remained faithful and endured to the end, and are saved.

BTW, Revelation says the "patience" ("endurance") of the saints is seen in those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus". - Revelation 14:12 KJV

 

[Phoneman-777]

Your almost there

its why he who sins has never seen God or known God, because they are incapable of love

it’s also why he who has been born of God can not sin, because they have been born of God

we love because God loves us first, those born of God experienced Gods love and had their needs taken care of, they no longer NEED to serve self. It’s why they can not continue in sin

Too bad those in Matthew 24:12 KJV didn't realize this...they would have continued allowing Jesus to be king instead of iniquity, which killed their agape cold and dead, and Jesus would not have had to contrast their fate with those who "endure to the end" and are "saved".

 

[Phoneman-777]

the more dead/sinful

There's no degree of death..that's like saying one woman is "more pregnant" than another when the truth is a woman is either pregnant or not.

"But she that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

 

[gb9]

Posthuman and you remind me of Westcott and Hort -- they felt qualified to rewrite the Bible, too.

i say " believe ", as in believe in Jesus for salvation.

you " believe" really means " do good works and do not sin too much, or God will take away your salvation"

so, it is pretty evident who ignores word meanings and just adds there own definitions.

 

[Dino246]

What middle?

Don't make assumptions; go and read.

 

[Ogom]

View attachment 228485

There's no degree of death...

16 Nevertheless, when they shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.


KJ21
But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ASV
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
AMP
And we all, with unveiled face, continually seeing as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are progressively being transformed into His image from [one degree of] glory to [even more] glory, which comes from the Lord, [who is] the Spirit.
AMPC
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
BRG
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
CSB
We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
CEB
All of us are looking with unveiled faces at the glory of the Lord as if we were looking in a mirror. We are being transformed into that same image from one degree of glory to the next degree of glory. This comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
CJB
So all of us, with faces unveiled, see as in a mirror the glory of the Lord; and we are being changed into his very image, from one degree of glory to the next, by Adonai the Spirit.
CEV
So our faces are not covered. They show the bright glory of the Lord, as the Lord’s Spirit makes us more and more like our glorious Lord.
DARBY
But *we* all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by [the] Lord [the] Spirit.
DLNT
But we all with a face having been unveiled, while reflecting the glory of the Lord as a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just-as from the Lord, the Spirit.
DRA
But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ERV
And our faces are not covered. We all show the Lord’s glory, and we are being changed to be like him. This change in us brings more and more glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
EHV
But all of us who reflect the Lord’s glory with an unveiled face are being transformed into his own image, from one degree of glory to another. This too is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
ESV
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
ESVUK
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
EXB
·Our faces, then, are not covered [L With an unveiled face…]. We all ·show [reflect; or behold; or contemplate] the Lord’s glory, and we are being ·changed [transformed] ·to be like him [L into the same image]. This change in us ·brings ever greater glory [or is from one degree of glory to another; L is from glory to glory], which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 13:12

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

 

[Jocund]

According to Psalms 50:5 KJV, a "saint" is anyone who makes a covenant with God by sacrifice.

Anyone with a standing covenant, ergo those in Christ.

That means the New Covenant Christian

Not sure what a "New Covenant Christian" is, I believe you mean just "Christian".

who takes up "his cross daily" and follows Jesus, according to Luke 9:23 KJV.

One is saved by grace, not by works.

The "wheat" is what is gathered to God in the end - the saints.

Close, but not quite. The fruit of the wheat is winnowed from the husk. The husk of each wheat is burned. The wheat always carries undesired parts.

The "tares" are burned in the fire - sinners and hypocrites.

The tares by their nature are unable to bear the spiritual fruit, though they appear the same as wheat when growing. Both wheat and tares are sinful but the wheat alone has good content. Wheat will sin too.

If "lukewarm" is unacceptable to God

Unacceptable is the wrong word here. The substance requires purification, and this purification is established in the parable of the wheat.

how much more unacceptable is "cold"?

We've established that your interpretation of lukewarm is poorly fitting. This question from you is particularly odd because the passage we discussed says "I'd rather you were hot or cold". Clearly cold is better than lukewarm if you insist on following your interpretation.

To what lengths is the OSAS crowd willing to go?

Looking to scripture is as far as you need go to see for yourself. Heck, I'm not even saying OSAS is necessarily true, I'm advocating for the idea that it is consistent with scripture (and it is).

When Jesus "spews" people out of His mouth and tells them they're "blind" and "naked", the symbolism is unmistakable: rejection

No, this is not necessarily the case. In fact, it is also likely not the case based on the surrounding passages. The wheat cannot be accepted as whole, it must be purified first.

Context Context Context, please!!! "Love never fails" doesn't mean it can't turn [dead] and render the one in whom it is [dead] rejected by God -- it means it never fails to suffer long, be kind, abstain from envy, boasting, pride, etc., and all the other stuff mentioned contextually in the passage to which you refer.

No. It actually says "love never fails". It then compares love to other things which can fail. It is also (additionally) has other passages that talk about other attributes you have referenced. Why argue against scripture?

If you think of cold agape as "love that suffers long", you will see how the two lines in Matthew mesh.

If the fate of the "many" whose agape turns [dead] is the same as the fate of those who "endure to the end" - salvation - the verse makes no sense at all.

It makes no sense because you have injected your own meaning for "cold" that doesn't fit well in scripture.

Jesus should have simply said, "Look, folks, iniquity's gonna abound and the agape of many of you is gonna [die]."

You are still avoiding the issue with your interpretation of "cold" in this passage.

He deliberately contrasts the two groups, those who "endure to the end" and are saved with those whose [love dies] and are lost,

You interpret this as a contrast but that interpretation pivots on the concept that agape can die - an interpretation that seems to contradict scripture. True love that suffers long endures until the end.

Can love die? I suppose this is what the dividing line is for you between OSAS vs. Salvation By Works. But truly, if the love disappears you were never truly in that love to begin with (a tare).

Someone might think they experienced agape and think they are wheat but later have a change of heart (revealing that they never truly experienced agape to begin with). Someone can appear like a saint but ultimately not be a saint. They can act in a convincing manner that they are consistent with the covenant, but ultimately fall short of being able to because a requirement of the covenant is to have agape in your heart.

 

[Diakonos]

Jesus contrasts two groups: (1) those that "shall endure to the end" and are "saved", and (2) the "many" whose love grows cold.

Tell me,
Is group (1) the Church, or not the Church?

 

[Ogom]

16 Nevertheless, when they shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.


KJ21
But we all, with uncovered face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ASV
But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.
AMP
And we all, with unveiled face, continually seeing as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are progressively being transformed into His image from [one degree of] glory to [even more] glory, which comes from the Lord, [who is] the Spirit.
AMPC
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
BRG
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
CSB
We all, with unveiled faces, are looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit.
CEB
All of us are looking with unveiled faces at the glory of the Lord as if we were looking in a mirror. We are being transformed into that same image from one degree of glory to the next degree of glory. This comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
CJB
So all of us, with faces unveiled, see as in a mirror the glory of the Lord; and we are being changed into his very image, from one degree of glory to the next, by Adonai the Spirit.
CEV
So our faces are not covered. They show the bright glory of the Lord, as the Lord’s Spirit makes us more and more like our glorious Lord.
DARBY
But *we* all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by [the] Lord [the] Spirit.
DLNT
But we all with a face having been unveiled, while reflecting the glory of the Lord as a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just-as from the Lord, the Spirit.
DRA
But we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.
ERV
And our faces are not covered. We all show the Lord’s glory, and we are being changed to be like him. This change in us brings more and more glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
EHV
But all of us who reflect the Lord’s glory with an unveiled face are being transformed into his own image, from one degree of glory to another. This too is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
ESV
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
ESVUK
And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
EXB
·Our faces, then, are not covered [L With an unveiled face…]. We all ·show [reflect; or behold; or contemplate] the Lord’s glory, and we are being ·changed [transformed] ·to be like him [L into the same image]. This change in us ·brings ever greater glory [or is from one degree of glory to another; L is from glory to glory], which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


1 Corinthians 13:12

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

Human spirit is (our) your perception of reality. Two versions available, man/beast/dead or God/Love/Alive.


The spirit of the heart (perception) directs the mind/soul/conscious.


#90


it may also direct the directions of one's religious/spiritual beliefs and of 'hangups' religiously and of spirit -- of non-Christ-like spirit, pseudo and/or lesser-spiritual, more spiritual, ect ...


the more dead and/or sinful (un-Christ like) one is -- the more one would want that to be ok (kosher, safe, acceptable, eternal [death]).


the more interested and/or wanting to do what is better, right, or godly -- eternal [life] as opposed to our own thing/carnal/worldly -- then the more one's beliefs can or might be formed, builded, morphing and growing quite differently.