Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

I can see your point about people could have a misunderstanding of what I am saying and take it as being schizophrenic..however although we do live in this body. The body itself is not evil as Jesus had a body too..but our body has ..Hmmm...I have heard it put this way...has a parasite in it called the power of sin in the flesh. Our body will be left in the grave to rot while the real us will be with the Lord. We are simply agreeing with what God says we are now in Christ and the fact there is the flesh and there is an inner man that is a new creation in Christ. If that is schizophrenic or compartmentalization...then those are good things according to the scriptures. I want more!

..the life in Christ in us puts to death the "deeds" of the flesh. This is facing our behavior and having our minds renewed to who we are in Christ.

As to your comment about not being able to face behavior - since understanding the grace of God as Paul outlined - I live a way more holier and joyful and loving life then I did my "other" days in what I would call my performance-based religion.

It truly amazes me that people "read" into what the so called hyper-grace believers say. Its as when we say "there is no condemnation for those in Christ"...they hear " look they are saying they can do whatever they want and just go out and sin "..and in this case..not face their behavior. ( this all total nonsense )


Telling new born Christians who they really are in Christ and what the riches of His grace is toward is should be fundamental in their lives.

yes..thank God for hyper-grace. We need it to live!

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP] [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

I like your desire to deal with the battle to understand our bodies and the functions of the mind walking in the flesh, and the idea of walking in the Holy Spirit.

What I do not like is the proposal we are all schozophrenic, really being the new born spirit separate from the flesh.

This denies personal responsibility or ownership of ones own behaviour. It is starting the idea we are possessed and it is not us who walk in righteousness but this new life within.

A biblical view is both exist together but we can choose to walk as to our selfish rebellious nature or in love after the Holy Spirit. The difference is what we dwell in not that we are two parts.

Psychologists would call your strategy compartmentalisation because you cannot truly face your own behaviour.

The grace of God is tremendous, because though we are often conflicted He still listens to us and deals with us, and takes us on to transform our lives.

24 hours ago I did not think anyone had gone as far as you have expressed, but you have made it clear.
Yes I would call it a heresy, something that is akin to mental illness, not dealing with yourself as a complete whole and learning to love the sinner within, which is what Jesus does through the cross.

The bulk of the argument normally is can we attain perfection in this life or even know that meaning. I would hold we can attain perfection, but only God would know that we had, but walking in perfection is not about walking in perfection as if it like an award or point you arrive at and rest, it is about loving as Jesus loved.

The other problem with your concept is to appease the problem of inbuilt sinful behaviour in the newly born again christian.
How can perfection or salvation be linked with sin? It is and it is why it is a walk of transformation and transcending situations.

So again thankyou for confirming hyper grace is actually alive and kicking and needs to be addressed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I would be happy not to continue with this. Frankly I cannot understand why you keep coming to me and finding fault with me accepting what scripture plainly states.
I genuinely hope we might discuss this no more. We have discussed it previously at length, and obviously will not agree

BTW
The holy spirit dwells in all christians, that does not negate him placing the law within them

The only reason I keep touching the subject is because you continually use the expression the law to refer to new covenant law. As I mentioned earlier Paul only used that expression to refer to the law of Moses. In discussions here with what I call law-cultists, I have striven to make a distinction between the law of the old covenant (the law of Moses, the law) and the law of the new covenant (the law of the spirit of life in Christ, the law of liberty, etc). They simply will not recognize new covenant law as being anything other than the law of Moses. You seem to recognize the difference, but your calling new covenant law the law I find problematic and confusing in the context of the discussions mentioned.

 

[ladylynn]

We deal with sin as believers when we believe in the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. We believe His grace that we are under means that sin shall NOT have dominion over us - Rom 6:14

I believe that God is not an evangelical obsessed with a sin-consciousness. He is Christ-conscious. He is 100% obsessed with Christ..in His Son and what He did for us! Sin is not an issue anymore. It has been dealt with by the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ!!

AMEN!!! That is the major difference between following Christ and following a religion. We take Him at His word and walk it out by faith.

 

[Grace777x70]

I noticed your reference that we are sinners.."and learning to love the sinner within"..that sounds alot like schizophrenic thinking to me. It is totally not true for us believers in Christ ...we are not sinners now.

We are told constantly that we are saints now in Christ. I never saw one instance where Paul said.. "To the sinners at Corinth, Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Phillipi, Colossae..etc" We are called saints! We were sinners but we were saved by grace now God calls us saints in Christ.

I can see why my posts would throw you off and hope for Psychologists to come and save me. I has in the medical field for about 35 years and I loved to talk with psychiatrist. They were a lot of fun!

 

[james57]

The only reason I keep touching the subject is because you continually use the expression the law to refer to new covenant law. As I mentioned earlier Paul only used that expression to refer to the law of Moses. In discussions here with what I call law-cultists, I have striven to make a distinction between the law of the old covenant (the law of Moses, the law) and the law of the new covenant (the law of the spirit of life in Christ, the law of liberty, etc). They simply will not recognize new covenant law as being anything other than the law of Moses. You seem to recognize the difference, but your calling new covenant law the law I find problematic and confusing in the context of the discussions mentioned.

If I say the heart of the law, not the legalistic law is that better than just saying The law? I do continually stress the law God desires us to keep.
Yes, Paul never differentiates between the one whole law when he repeatedly states the christian is not under law. But he does specifically state it is not a law written on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. That does not infer the whole law does it.
It isn't a legalistic thing. Some may mistakenly imagine it means a set of laws must be concentrated on and striven to be obeyed to gain acceptance before God, it is nothing like that. It simply means the christian desires to live as God wants them to. And i keep repeating, when we follow after the holy spirit we never think of any law as such for the spirit will not lead us into conflict with the law on our hearts
We only think of law as such when we follow after the flesh. For if I went and stole something I would be-as would every other christian conscious i had sinned. I wouldn't have to consciously recite the words. Thou shalt not steal. I simply instinctively know in my heart and mind I have sinned by committing theft

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

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The problem with your reasoning is that you (apparently) don't understand your position in the covenant. Sinning does not make one fall from righteousness. That is yours forever, imputed to you through the new covenant. However, sinning does take us out of fellowship with GOD. Relationships get strained when wrongdoing occurs, but they don't end. That is what I mean by fellowship. If you don't believe that happens with GOD, you are in denial of what many verses of scripture witness. Restoration of fellowship requires admittance of wrongdoing.

This thread made me realize that BenFTW is under the influence of this teaching.

HeRose.... This is not the first time this topic has been brought up here on the threads. It is not heresy by any means. We had some really good discussion in a thread started by a member named Ben. I believe the title of the thread was -1John 1:9 Do we need to confess our sins?- (not sure about the title) but 1John 1:9 was on the title.

I've also given this much thought and the solid truth that we are already righteous and we cannot make ourselves unrighteous comes shining through. We do not dance back and forth being righteous then unrighteous. We have received the GIFT of righteousness. He has already cleansed us from all unrighteousness. We are the children of light and we do not become children of the night.,darkness. \

Just heard a message this morning on this subject. All were made sinners by one man's sin... that man was Adam. Even if those who came after Adam were good human beings., it did not change their position as sons of Adam with the Adamic nature, they totally needed Jesus payment for their sin to make them born again and righteous in God's sight.

Every knowledgeable Christian would say the same thing., that 'good' people need Jesus too. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags. Without Christ we would be dead in our trespasses and sins.

So why do some people think when Jesus makes a person Righteous by Imputing HIS righteousness on them that they can somehow get out of it? Is Adam's sin more powerful than Jesus sacrifice? Think about it.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have to beg to differ here...there are absolutely no scriptures that say we "fall out of fellowship" with God. This concept is birthed in our religious minds. It does not matter how many times we say it..it still does not make it true.

We went over this in this thread earlier.

.
The problem with your reasoning is that you (apparently) don't understand your position in the covenant. Sinning does not make one fall from righteousness. That is yours forever, imputed to you through the new covenant. However, sinning does take us out of fellowship with GOD. Relationships get strained when wrongdoing occurs, but they don't end. That is what I mean by fellowship. If you don't believe that happens with GOD, you are in denial of what many verses of scripture witness. Restoration of fellowship requires admittance of wrongdoing.

This thread made me realize that BenFTW is under the influence of this teaching.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I have to beg to differ here...there are absolutely no scriptures that say we "fall out of fellowship" with God. This concept is birthed in our religious minds. It does not matter how many times we say it..it still does not make it true.

We went over this in this thread earlier.

It's your opinion. I've never had a religious mind.

 

[james57]

.
The problem with your reasoning is that you (apparently) don't understand your position in the covenant. Sinning does not make one fall from righteousness. That is yours forever, imputed to you through the new covenant. However, sinning does take us out of fellowship with GOD. Relationships get strained when wrongdoing occurs, but they don't end. That is what I mean by fellowship. If you don't believe that happens with GOD, you are in denial of what many verses of scripture witness. Restoration of fellowship requires admittance of wrongdoing.

This thread made me realize that BenFTW is under the influence of this teaching.

The above I do agree with, wilfull sin damages our relationship with God, but our place in his family is secure. I doubt Lynn or grace770 would disagree with that.
Though we must differentiate between wilful sin as it were and sin we are in our hearts trusting Christ for victory over
IE

An alcoholic becomes a christian and earnestly seeks victory over alcohol addiction through faith in Christ. He is seeking to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, but it takes time as Paul clearly tells us( gal2:15-17) just suppose it took the alcoholic a month to be freed from his addiction. During Thi time his relationship with God us not damaged through his drinking for he is following after the holy spirit in the truth of the Gospel message to see victory over the alcohol.
However, if once the man is freed from his addiction he gets bored one night, goes to the pub and gets drunk, that is very different, and cannot be viewed the same as when through faith in Christ he sought victory over his drinking

 

[james57]

From my experience though, people who fully accept grace commit less wilfull sin than those who do not. Back to rom 6:14

And of course, many do not see victory over much sin they earnestly want to see victory over because they either do not understand, or refuse to accept the true grace of scripture

 

[Grace777x70]

That's great news. I wish I had your experience!

This still doesn't show the scriptures that say we "fall out of fellowship" with God.

Sin affects us and our minds and we hide from God - it is not Him. I proved that or at least attempted to....with scripture earlier in this thread. The teaching that God falls out of fellowship with us is not based on scripture.

It's your opinion. I've never had a religious mind.

 

[james57]

That's great news. I wish I had your experience!

This still doesn't show the scriptures that say we "fall out of fellowship" with God.

Sin affects us and our minds and we hide from God - it is not Him. I proved that or at least attempted to....with scripture earlier in this thread. The teaching that God falls out of fellowship with us is not based on scripture.

I would term it as damaging the relationship, not falling out of fellowship

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This still doesn't show the scriptures that say we "fall out of fellowship" with God.

Sin affects us and our minds and we hide from God - it is not Him. I proved that or at least attempted to....with scripture earlier in this thread. The teaching that God falls out of fellowship with us is not based on scripture.

It's there. You just have blinders on that you can't see it.

I agree that we take ourselves out of fellowship, but sin breaks the fellowship nonetheless. Restoration requires admitting wrongdoing, not acting like nothing happened.

 

[Grace777x70]

I would agree that sin would definitely influence our thinking in our minds concerning God...that He is mad at us..that He is out of fellowship with us...that He is thinking if we just sin once more..that's it..you are out of the family. Of course this is all foolishness. It's in our own minds in not knowing the love of the Father nor knowing what Christ did for us and who we are in the new creation...this causes us to shrink and hide from God.

Look at the prodigal son parable.....the father never separated himself from the younger son..the younger son did!.
Actually the older son also was out of sorts with His Father as well..it just manifested in a different way.

Now as we know who we are in Christ and nothing can separate us from Him - this frees us to always run to our Father.

This whole falling out of fellowship IMO is a product of an unrenewed mindset in our place in Christ.

The above I do agree with, wilfull sin damages our relationship with God, but our place in his family is secure. I doubt Lynn or grace770 would disagree with that.
Though we must differentiate between wilful sin as it were and sin we are in our hearts trusting Christ for victory over
IE

An alcoholic becomes a christian and earnestly seeks victory over alcohol addiction through faith in Christ. He is seeking to cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness, but it takes time as Paul clearly tells us( gal2:15-17) just suppose it took the alcoholic a month to be freed from his addiction. During Thi time his relationship with God us not damaged through his drinking for he is following after the holy spirit in the truth of the Gospel message to see victory over the alcohol.
However, if once the man is freed from his addiction he gets bored one night, goes to the pub and gets drunk, that is very different, and cannot be viewed the same as when through faith in Christ he sought victory over his drinking

 

[crossnote]

There is a verse that tells us that Jesus is our sanctification. I have not changed my mind on everything I ever learned when I was a Bible Baptist. As I shared many times, that country church with it's many legalistic brethren was the place that our family got a sure foundation because they taught about Jesus and how He paid for our sins on the cross. Eph.2:8-9 was my salvation verse. Coming from an Irish Catholic family., that verse was a shock..".For by grace are you saved through faith., and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast...." Gift of God....not of works......so much so that no one can boast.

And so we were also always taught that sanctification is a process. I'm more of the mind now that we have all these things already and it's a matter of taking a hold by faith those things that have been freely given to us. We have this treasure in earthen vessels... 'work our your own salvation with fear and trembling... which basically means to take this walk seriously. We don't work for our salvation we work it from the inside out the life of Jesus. We work out what has been put in us.,
He is our righteousness, our redemption, our sanctification., our salvation.,And so many other things that go with those things and more.

God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind. All these things I'm thinking we work out of us by faith. We have already been purged from sin. We are already cleansed. Now we walk it out.

I think it's a lot like how we look at the spiritual battle we are in. The fact is we fight from a place of victory because of Jesus. The big mistake we Christians make is allowing satan to trick us into believing we are not the righteousness of God in Christ. It is then he gets us to look at ourselves in the flesh and not Jesus. Then we are trying to win a battle that has already been won, and we lose the battle every time because we can do nothing without Him. Isn't it interesting how God wants us to depend on Him for everything. That it pleases Him when we depend on Him and go to Him for all things in our life.

I keep finding it interesting that most I have bumped into in this movement have had a legalistic upbringing.
What's wrong with sanctification being a process? Isn't it God who is in us both to will and do of His good pleasure? (phil 2:13)

 

[Grace777x70]

Make no mistake about it..sin is terrible but God's grace in Christ is so much more.

God never withdraws His fellowship from us when we sin!

Where sin abounded, grace much more abounded..thank God for the hyper-grace here in the much more!

We come boldly to throne of grace!

It's there. You just have blinders on that you can't see it.

I agree that we take ourselves out of fellowship, but sin breaks the fellowship nonetheless. Restoration requires admitting wrongdoing, not acting like nothing happened.

 

[james57]

I would agree that sin would definitely influence our thinking in our minds concerning God...that He is mad at us..that He is out of fellowship with us...that He is thinking if we just sin once more..that's it..you are out of the family. Of course this is all foolishness. It's in our own minds in not knowing the love of the Father nor knowing what Christ did for us and who we are in the new creation...this causes us to shrink and hide from God.

Look at the prodigal son parable.....the father never separated himself from the younger son..the younger son did!.
Actually the older son also was out of sorts with His Father as well..it just manifested in a different way.

Now as we know who we are in Christ and nothing can separate us from Him - this frees us to always run to our Father.

This whole falling out of fellowship IMO is a product of an unrenewed mindset in our place in Christ.

I have said I wouldn't term it as falling out of fellowship, and we are talking here of wilful sin.
If I went and got drunk one night I will not have the peace, happiness, or closeness to God I had before I got drunk. Once I have come to God and told him I am sorry for how I have acted I have that peace, happiness and closeness back
We are all works in progress our whole lives, and none are perfect on this earth, and that takes nothing away from our relationship of growth with God.
But it isn't possible in my view to Ste outside of being a work in progress to commit wilful sin and not damage your relationship with God until you say sorry for what you have done

 

[Willie-T]

I keep finding it interesting that most I have bumped into in this movement have had a legalistic upbringing.
What's wrong with sanctification being a process? Isn't it God who is in us both to will and do of His good pleasure? (phil 2:13)

It takes some of us a bit of time to learn to distinguish between Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy. We often try to go at it backwards.

 

[james57]

I keep finding it interesting that most I have bumped into in this movement have had a legalistic upbringing.
What's wrong with sanctification being a process? Isn't it God who is in us both to will and do of His good pleasure? (phil 2:13)

I don't know how true it id, but a minister told me spurgeon and Wesley had both suffered from legalism when they were young. He mentioned a couple of other well known ministers too but i cannot remember their names

 

[Grace777x70]

It might come from the fact that most of us Christians went to church...not that all churches are legalistic...but judging from what I read..there certainly is a lot of them. With that we do not throw the baby out with the dirty water..we need each other in the Body of Christ! We are just getting rid of the religious junk and unfortunately some of our " sacred cows " have to be sacrificed!...lol

I keep finding it interesting that most I have bumped into in this movement have had a legalistic upbringing.
What's wrong with sanctification being a process? Isn't it God who is in us both to will and do of His good pleasure? (phil 2:13)