Hyper grace

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Nov 22, 2015
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Most definitely! I would dare say that all the legalistic Christians that came against Paul with accusations because of the revelation of grace given to him by our Lord ....were all acquainted with the gifts of the Spirit.

The Lord is revealing His true grace to so many now in the Body of Christ.

performance-based religion cannot last...

Neither you, Lynn or I are cessationist, so we have that in common, and also much of our beliefs on grace. I wonder if there is a connection
In saying the above I know many who are not cessationist who would disagree with the three of us concerning grace.
 
Jan 27, 2013
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mixing and trying to match history, with spiritual , you also need facts. ie if the truth, is to set you free, then it, needs to be the truth, and in line with history.
1)sin v illness. 32ad to 70ad v 2015
2)growing, from baby to adult.

if you still have problems with the history account, then the spiritual, can not connect to a lie.

as for spiritual gift , ie it not wrong to pray for healing, but trying to remove part of the soul, when asking for healing is madness.
for example
emotions
sexual or anger etc need to be there, ie how would you know your angry, how would you know your feeling sexual( to wife or partner) etc

learning to control them is a different forum topic.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Until 8 months ago. I was addictred to cigarettes. I could not stop. I tried the trust God stuff. I tried the faith atuff, I tried this pill and that pill. nothing worked. I was told many times in my early days I did not trust God or I could quite and never think about it.

so tell me. I Started smoking when I went to bootcamp (both my parents were smokers as were my grand parents, in fact most the people I knew smoked. so I was an easy target, even being Gods child) and smoked as a christian for 32 years. Where did I fail?

I know what crossnote said and what he believes, I actually agree with him.

People have bessetting sin, They are wonderfully blessed and walk with God in mary areas of their lives. But they struggle with this ONE sin issue (actually we all struggle with more than one sin, but you get the point) so where did we go wrong? Did we lack faith?
Well I cannot definatley answer that question, but if I asked you something, would you reply honestly? Did you try and ''co-operate'' with God to stop smoking? In other words, did you wake up some mornings, once you had asked God to heal you of smoking and make every effort not to smoke, so you could have the healing? You may not have done, but that is the route I know most have tried to quit. Then they have lasted a few hours, gone through torture, given up and smoked again.

You were a slave to smoking, I was a slave to something too in my teenage years. I will tell you how my slavery was overcome.

As you know, I responded to an altar call at the age of ten and became a Christian. Due to heavy legalism by the time I was 15 I was in the same place Paul was at when he tried to attain Heaven as a Pharisee(Rom 7:7-11) I walked away from the faith crushed.
At the age of 19 grace found me, now I dared to believe I could be a Christian after all and recommitted my life to Christ for he was my righteousness. But there was a problem, I was a slave of masturbation. And I was as addicted to that as you were to smoking, believe me. I was its slave. But what to do about it? I wanted to be a Christian and knew it was sin to keep committing the act?
Well for the first time in my life I simply stood on a righteousness of faith in Christ. I was a Christian because he died for me, not because I strove to defeat sin.
For the next three days the masturbation continued, I made no effort of my own to cease the act, but I did do one thing totally different from my previous Christian experience. Every time I committed the act I looked to Jesus and trusted I was saved because he died for me. Now as you have suffered from legalism you can appreciate how hard that is for an ex legalist to do. My logical mind told me I was a hypocrite, faking my Christianity, I was viewing grace as a licence to sin and much more. But I didn't give in to those thoughts. The best way I can describe it as, is I threw logic and reasoning out of the window and simply stood by simply faith that Christ was my righteousness before the Father, I had none of my own. I would not this time let the sin condemn me. And I repeat, I made little if any effort to cease the masturbation myself.
On the fourth day, this sin which had made me its slave for six years stopped. Why? Because I stood on the basic truth of why Christ died at Calvary, no more.

Most of the time it is easy to instinctively feel we must co operate with God by trying to stop ourselves what we are a slave to. He will do it if we stand on the truth of the Gospel message. That is my experience anyway.

The thing is, when we try and co operate with God, we are too busy doing the co operating to be keeping our eyes on Jesus, that is what I also found
God Bless
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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Well said!

It takes faith to say you are the righteousness of God in Christ in the midst of conflict.

Faith without works is dead. Faith without corresponding works is dead. The book of James and Paul confirm each other and are not in conflict as some had thought. ( Luther thought James shouldn't be in the bible because it "appeared" to contradict we are saved by grace thru faith)

This was your faith in action. Your trust/faith was in what Christ had done for you. You were during that struggle "entering into His rest" Declaring who you are in Christ makes our faith "effective"!

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Resting in what God has done for us in Christ is our faith in action!

Resting in Christ is our warfare!

Resting in Christ is our obedience!

Thank you James for being open here. It'll be a blessing for many that read this hyper-grace thread.

It is a perfect example of :

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Effortless change! We don't change ourselves. We see who we are in Christ...declare it is so for us...and we are changed outwardly in our behavior to "be" who we are as we "see" Jesus. Then it is a simple matter of His life ( our root ) flowing to drop off those diseased leaves in our lives and produce His Fruit.


2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Thank God for His hyper-grace! He changes us!




Well I cannot definatley answer that question, but if I asked you something, would you reply honestly? Did you try and ''co-operate'' with God to stop smoking? In other words, did you wake up some mornings, once you had asked God to heal you of smoking and make every effort not to smoke, so you could have the healing? You may not have done, but that is the route I know most have tried to quit. Then they have lasted a few hours, gone through torture, given up and smoked again.

You were a slave to smoking, I was a slave to something too in my teenage years. I will tell you how my slavery was overcome.

As you know, I responded to an altar call at the age of ten and became a Christian. Due to heavy legalism by the time I was 15 I was in the same place Paul was at when he tried to attain Heaven as a Pharisee(Rom 7:7-11) I walked away from the faith crushed.
At the age of 19 grace found me, now I dared to believe I could be a Christian after all and recommitted my life to Christ for he was my righteousness. But there was a problem, I was a slave of masturbation. And I was as addicted to that as you were to smoking, believe me. I was its slave. But what to do about it? I wanted to be a Christian and knew it was sin to keep committing the act?
Well for the first time in my life I simply stood on a righteousness of faith in Christ. I was a Christian because he died for me, not because I strove to defeat sin.
For the next three days the masturbation continued, I made no effort of my own to cease the act, but I did do one thing totally different from my previous Christian experience. Every time I committed the act I looked to Jesus and trusted I was saved because he died for me. Now as you have suffered from legalism you can appreciate how hard that is for an ex legalist to do. My logical mind told me I was a hypocrite, faking my Christianity, I was viewing grace as a licence to sin and much more. But I didn't give in to those thoughts. The best way I can describe it as, is I threw logic and reasoning out of the window and simply stood by simply faith that Christ was my righteousness before the Father, I had none of my own. I would not this time let the sin condemn me. And I repeat, I made little if any effort to cease the masturbation myself.
On the fourth day, this sin which had made me its slave for six years stopped. Why? Because I stood on the basic truth of why Christ died at Calvary, no more.

Most of the time it is easy to instinctively feel we must co operate with God by trying to stop ourselves what we are a slave to. He will do it if we stand on the truth of the Gospel message. That is my experience anyway.

The thing is, when we try and co operate with God, we are too busy doing the co operating to be keeping our eyes on Jesus, that is what I also found
God Bless
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Well said!

It takes faith to say you are the righteousness of God in Christ in the midst of conflict.

Faith without works is dead. Faith without corresponding works is dead. The book of James and Paul confirm each other and are not in conflict as some had thought. ( Luther thought James shouldn't be in the bible because it "appeared" to contradict we are saved by grace thru faith)

This was your faith in action. Your trust/faith was in what Christ had done for you. You were during that struggle "entering into His rest" Declaring who you are in Christ makes our faith "effective"!

Philemon 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

Resting in what God has done for us in Christ is our faith in action!

Resting in Christ is our warfare!

Resting in Christ is our obedience!

Thank you James for being open here. It'll be a blessing for many that read this hyper-grace thread.

It is a perfect example of :

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Effortless change! We don't change ourselves. We see who we are in Christ...declare it is so for us...and we are changed outwardly in our behavior to "be" who we are as we "see" Jesus. Then it is a simple matter of His life ( our root ) flowing to drop off those diseased leaves in our lives and produce His Fruit.


2 Corinthians 4:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Thank God for His hyper-grace! He changes us!
That is a brilliant post, thank you for it. I have ceaselessly admitted I did not feel comfortable with everything Joseph Prince wrote, however, victory over sin for me as described was as he preached.
But most, even those who say they accept grace will not go as far as that, they must do the co operating to defeat the sin. It didn't work for me, but then I was never that strong a character in myself, so I knew I couldn't rely on my co operation.
But what did God say to Paul

My power is made perfect in weakness
 
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Yes.. we were sinners before we received Christ..Christ died for us..we believe in what He has done! Wonderful

We are not sinners anymore! We are now called saints! Thank God..we are a new creation in Him!

If we are still sinners..I'm going to have to change so much in my bible...

"To the sinners at Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, Colossae, Corinth...etc.

then I will need to change this scripture..

Romans 8:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Now we are here too...

Romans 15:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.


Ok..this goes on and on..it is way too much work!

Let's declare what God say about us! That is honoring to the Lord. those that deny who they are in Christ because of what He has done for us in His finished work are the ones that are "denying their Lord"

Let's "be" who God says we are and obtain the life that He has given us!

It is truly a wonderful salvation we have in Him!
What you believe is not grace. You believe grace made you righteous, but now that you believe you are righteous, you believe in your righteousness, not Christ's. Abiding in grace is recognizing that we have no righteousness and trusting in Christ's righteousness to save us.

We are called holy ones because we are holy, but we are holy, justified sinners. That is what separates us from the sinners of the world.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Well I cannot definatley answer that question, but if I asked you something, would you reply honestly? Did you try and ''co-operate'' with God to stop smoking? In other words, did you wake up some mornings, once you had asked God to heal you of smoking and make every effort not to smoke, so you could have the healing? You may not have done, but that is the route I know most have tried to quit. Then they have lasted a few hours, gone through torture, given up and smoked again.

How about I tell you how many times. I lost count..


You were a slave to smoking, I was a slave to something too in my teenage years. I will tell you how my slavery was overcome.
Yeah I was,

As you know, I responded to an altar call at the age of ten and became a Christian. Due to heavy legalism by the time I was 15 I was in the same place Paul was at when he tried to attain Heaven as a Pharisee(Rom 7:7-11) I walked away from the faith crushed.
At the age of 19 grace found me, now I dared to believe I could be a Christian after all and recommitted my life to Christ for he was my righteousness. But there was a problem, I was a slave of masturbation. And I was as addicted to that as you were to smoking, believe me. I was its slave. But what to do about it? I wanted to be a Christian and knew it was sin to keep committing the act?
Well for the first time in my life I simply stood on a righteousness of faith in Christ. I was a Christian because he died for me, not because I strove to defeat sin.
For the next three days the masturbation continued, I made no effort of my own to cease the act, but I did do one thing totally different from my previous Christian experience. Every time I committed the act I looked to Jesus and trusted I was saved because he died for me. Now as you have suffered from legalism you can appreciate how hard that is for an ex legalist to do. My logical mind told me I was a hypocrite, faking my Christianity, I was viewing grace as a licence to sin and much more. But I didn't give in to those thoughts. The best way I can describe it as, is I threw logic and reasoning out of the window and simply stood by simply faith that Christ was my righteousness before the Father, I had none of my own. I would not this time let the sin condemn me. And I repeat, I made little if any effort to cease the masturbation myself.
On the fourth day, this sin which had made me its slave for six years stopped. Why? Because I stood on the basic truth of why Christ died at Calvary, no more.

As many times as I have heard this example of immediate healing, I have heard just as many people who were healed for a time, and fell back ,and healed again, or who took years to overcome the temptation.

Are you more holy than they are? Are they less children of God than you were?




Most of the time it is easy to instinctively feel we must co operate with God by trying to stop ourselves what we are a slave to. He will do it if we stand on the truth of the Gospel message. That is my experience anyway.

The thing is, when we try and co operate with God, we are too busy doing the co operating to be keeping our eyes on Jesus, that is what I also found
God Bless
The problem with legalism comes when we feel, I can;t stop this sin, I struggle with it, even though I have major victory with all these other sins does not matter, I can;t stop this one, So God will never forgive me, and I will end up in hell.

Healing comes when you come to Christ in spite of your failures, Knowing one day you will have victory, but I will not let my failure rule my life and stop me from Going to Gods grace and doing other things he needs me to do.

As paul said, there are things I do not want to do. But I can not figure out how to stop them. There are things I want to do. But I struggle how to find how to do them, Who will free me from this body of sin, Nevertheless. I will push on and serve God, in spite of my failures.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Are you more holy than they are? Are they less children of God than you were?






As paul said, there are things I do not want to do. But I can not figure out how to stop them. There are things I want to do. But I struggle how to find how to do them, Who will free me from this body of sin, Nevertheless. I will push on and serve God, in spite of my failures.
That is ridiculous to ask me if I am more holy than others. I told you why I ceased to be a slave of sin concerning that particular sin. It wasn't because of any effort on my part, but simply believing Jesus was my righteousness

Concerning what Paul said. Would you give me your opinion of the following:

[SUP] [/SUP]Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness Rom 6:16

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin Rom 7:14
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
That is ridiculous to ask me if I am more holy than others. I told you why I ceased to be a slave of sin concerning that particular sin. It wasn't because of any effort on my part, but simply believing Jesus was my righteousness
in other words, you did better at that than I did, So you are better than me..

How else should I take this, Your response is rediculous. sorry. but it is..



Concerning what Paul said. Would you give me your opinion of the following:

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness Rom 6:16

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin Rom 7:14
So you must be perfect? Have no struggles? I would like to meet you. You are better than any man I have ever met, you have made what even paul could not do..

A slave of sin is a person who is living a sinful lifestyle in all he does.. We were slaves before we came to Christ, Not after. Many of us have won great victory over many sin area in our life. but still struggle in some area.

You think you have no sin issues? Again, you must be perfect..
 
Oct 21, 2015
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in other words, you did better at that than I did, So you are better than me..

How else should I take this, Your response is rediculous. sorry. but it is..





So you must be perfect? Have no struggles? I would like to meet you. You are better than any man I have ever met, you have made what even paul could not do..

A slave of sin is a person who is living a sinful lifestyle in all he does.. We were slaves before we came to Christ, Not after. Many of us have won great victory over many sin area in our life. but still struggle in some area.

You think you have no sin issues? Again, you must be perfect..
It seems I upset you by giving you my experience of how a sin I was a slave to was overcome. That was not the intention. I apologise for giving you that example. I didn't know it would upset you.

You haven't explained how Paul is not condemning himself in Rom 7:14 after what he wrote in Rom 6:16

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness Rom 6:16

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin Rom 7:14
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The problem with the religious legalist is he harps on each individual sin, And if a person have not won victory in every area, they are still a slave to sin.

Yet John said, we have been born of God and can not live in sin.. So the context of the apostle John and these legalistic views are apposed to each other. How can one who is struggling with a particular sin, yet still born of God, not sin..


Don;t judge the person who is struggling, you will push him away, Love him or her, Help them, pray for thenm, if the sin is not causing great danger to others..

remember, we have to take our logs our, before we can even see good enough to see the spec.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Sorry..I can't help you.

I'm sure I said that Christ was our righteousness at least 7 times now in this thread...we do not go around trying to establish our own righteousness.

If you want to make up a term called justified sinner for yourself....that's your choice...I'm sorry I can't agree to it because it goes against the scriptures that say otherwise. We are either a saint or a sinner. We were a sinner but a man named Jesus changed us by what He did! The justified sinner term violates the new creation we are in Christ.

Sorry...I can't help you....


What you believe is not grace. You believe grace made you righteous, but now that you believe you are righteous, you believe in your righteousness, not Christ's. Abiding in grace is recognizing that we have no righteousness and trusting in Christ's righteousness to save us.

We are called holy ones because we are holy, but we are holy, justified sinners. That is what separates us from the sinners of the world.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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2 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It seems I upset you by giving you my experience of how a sin I was a slave to was overcome. That was not the intention. I apologise for giving you that example. I didn't know it would upset you.
You do not know me at all. I am not upset at that at all I praide God you won victory. I struggles with masterbation also. I put that in Gods hands the moment I was saved, and never had the urge to do it again, But I do not like to brag of myself. it is not very christlike.
You haven't explained how Paul is not condemning himself in Rom 7:14 after what he wrote in Rom 6:16
So your one of them who believes paul spoke of pre salvation in romans 7?? Which is it?? do you think paul was perfect, He never struggled with any sin at all?? Lets get real now.





Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness Rom 6:16
so a christian can lose salvation is that what your saying?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin Rom 7:14

So your perfect. you have no sin, thanks, thats good to know..

if your not perfect. then all you just said was for nought, because you can not live up to your own standard.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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The problem with the religious legalist is he harps on each individual sin, And if a person have not won victory in every area, they are still a slave to sin.

Yet John said, we have been born of God and can not live in sin.. So the context of the apostle John and these legalistic views are apposed to each other. How can one who is struggling with a particular sin, yet still born of God, not sin..


Don;t judge the person who is struggling, you will push him away, Love him or her, Help them, pray for thenm, if the sin is not causing great danger to others..

remember, we have to take our logs our, before we can even see good enough to see the spec.
Who has judged anyone?

I will; tell you why Paul is not condemning himself in Rom 7:14, it is because in that verse and the following ones he is speaking of his time as a Pharisee, not a Christian.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
2 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
People sadly think they are better than others.. this is dangerous, We think, oh I won victory over this one sin, I am righteous. Yet all the while ignoring the sins we still struggle with..

when we do this, satan has this right where he wants us.. I had to learn that the hard way sadly.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Who has judged anyone?
So you do not think what you said judges a person who still struggles with a nessetting sin? You do not even understand what your saying.

I will; tell you why Paul is not condemning himself in Rom 7:14, it is because in that verse and the following ones he is speaking of his time as a Pharisee, not a Christian.
See I knew it. your one of them.

Your wrong, because paul spoke on present tense, not in past tense. Nothing he spoke if in rom 7 was pre conversion thats a lie based on pour scripture hermenuetics.

You may have the gospel. and you may be my brother. But you a danger to the church, because your a saved legalist who thinks he has made it while others have not.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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You do not know me at all. I am not upset at that at all I praide God you won victory. I struggles with masterbation also. I put that in Gods hands the moment I was saved, and never had the urge to do it again, But I do not like to brag of myself. it is not very christlike.


So your one of them who believes paul spoke of pre salvation in romans 7?? Which is it?? do you think paul was perfect, He never struggled with any sin at all?? Lets get real now.







so a christian can lose salvation is that what your saying?



So your perfect. you have no sin, thanks, thats good to know..

if your not perfect. then all you just said was for nought, because you can not live up to your own standard.
How is it bragging to give God the glory for what he does in our lives?

Would Paul have to be perfect if he is speaking as a Pharisee in those verses? Not at all.

Your last two lines show how upset you are. If you continue to act this way, I will have to cease conversation with you, for your own good
 
Oct 21, 2015
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So you do not think what you said judges a person who still struggles with a nessetting sin? You do not even understand what your saying.



See I knew it. your one of them.

Your wrong, because paul spoke on present tense, not in past tense. Nothing he spoke if in rom 7 was pre conversion thats a lie based on pour scripture hermenuetics.

You may have the gospel. and you may be my brother. But you a danger to the church, because your a saved legalist who thinks he has made it while others have not.
Yep he used present tense speech, but was speaking of the past.

Firstly, you cannot explain to me how is not condemning himself in Rom7:14 according to what he wrote in Rom n6:16.

Secondly sin was definitely Pauls master in those verses from ch 7. Paul states sin will not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
 
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[SUP] [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord


For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14