Hyper grace

[PeterJens]

There in lies the rub..

performance-based christianity = You do

grace-based Christianity = He's done it all

Walking with the Lord we do together. Ever seen too oxen yoked together. The experienced one leads and the other follows, effort is required. Your formulas are just extreme and simplified. You claim to be a friend to Jesus but dishonour your brother and sisters.

Your focus is to save everyone from legalism, where your focus should be on putting love into action, empathy, reaching out to people, understanding where they are and responding to needs. What you are pushing is just kick back and let God take the strain.

What God is calling us to do is see where he is working and get alongside and pull as well. Talking about sin and repentance is the milk of the gospel but it appears to be all you want to concentrate on.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is none of that there...I would say you are "reading" that comparison/condemnation into it.

What it says is that there is grace and unconditional love for all of us in whatever struggle we are in. We give and accept grace to others as well as ourselves.

We rely on Christ's life in us to change us as we cannot do it ourselves.

then we have the..

I had victory over sin. you did not have victory over that sin, and are still struggling. na na na na boo boo! Christian.

 

[james57]

I want to take this idea in our hearts and minds we have the law. Jesus called us to be His people, heart, mind and soul, yet the church seems to find it very hard to walk correctly. So I do agree the Lord transforms us within, but we can sear our consciences and become hypocrites, or be humble and learn to walk. It is a complex mixing of all the influences and obedience do we begin to gain an insight. In my experience when you feel someone elses pain, when you laugh when they laugh, cry when they cry you begin to understand empathy.

A strange contradiction, we have the law within us but cannot keep it and stay in rebellion. Not exactly a successful formula. But what you actually want to do is junk scripture. But you cannot except by saying you have a perfect spirit and sinful soul, which again is simply disowning your humanity and denying the purpose of grace, to redeem everything.

You talk as if there is a formula, but as with all relationships it has many layers. Now I can only speak about myself, and I know to walk in the Spirit is to walk in life. Rather than overcomers you suffer from the fear of legalism and wish to banish it from the world when it is your history and shadow and failing. The Lord is the Lord of rules, commands, exhortations, encouragements, rewards, blessings. You want the rewards and blessing without the righteousness, which is the desire for winning a race without partaking in the struggle.

But why do we find it so hard to walk correctly?

If a christian in their heart wants to obey, why do they fail so miserably?
Is it so complicated to understand the basic truths that lead us to walk as god intends us to walk or have we made it far more complicated than it really is.
The power of the Gospel must be in the truth of it.
But God placing his laws within the christian they have been supernaturally transformed into people who in their hearts want to obey God. They have in this sense been born again. So what happens next?
The christian is now aware of their sin before God for the first time in their life for the law makes us conscious of sin. We know sin is the barrier between God and man. Se know God wants us to live holy lives. What is the most natural thing in the world to conclude. I ( me) must defeat the sin otherwise I cannot be I grace. And it sounds very plausable, but is it?
You have now, without knowing it placed yourself immediately back under the law and are relying on yourself to defeat the sin
You are not living/ standing by faith in Christ, nor are you relying on the sanctification of the holy spirit
Disaster must follow. The core of the new covenant is being ignored

The problem is the logical mind of man, he cannot accept the way to much victory in his life, it doesn't make rational sense, but as Paul states:

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God wad pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe 1cor1:21

The hardest thing in the world is for man to let go and let God. Yet that is scripturally where victory lies
Trust in Jesus brings obedience and reliance on the holy spirit brings sanctification. The true battle is not being deflected from that course

 

[Grace777x70]

Walking with the Lord does involve the both of us. It is the grace of God working through us Paul says that he did things. We are saying that through Christ alone and His finished work is where our life comes from. He is the vine..we are the branches..without Him we can do nothing.

Nobody is denying that we are not yoked with the Lord..we are saying the exact opposite! We are saying that we completely rely on Him and Him alone. We do not rely on the will-power of our flesh. We depend on the His life in us to flow out to do the labor.

Relying on the grace of Christ in us will manifest as His fruit being produced.

performance-based Christianity = grace + works

grace-based Christianity = grace + grace

Both groups produce outward manifestations.

We maintain that as we abide in what Christ has already done for us..we have the love of God being released out of us to others.... I have told you this a few times before.

Nowhere do we say that we just sit back and float through life on a flowery bed of ease not working with the Lord as He leads us to the people He loves.

It is strange how people "read" stuff into what is said.

legalism is a grace killer in a Christians life!

The meat of the word as Hebrews says is the "word of righteousness". When we see our righteousness that Christ became to us....we grow up in the knowledge and grace of our Lord. His life in us compels us to see with His heart and eyes. I already told you about this.

When we see who we are ..we grow up!..I for one will continually repent as I see with my Father's eyes.

My focus is to point to Jesus and His finished work!

He is awesome and mighty to save!

Walking with the Lord we do together. Ever seen too oxen yoked together. The experienced one leads and the other follows, effort is required. Your formulas are just extreme and simplified. You claim to be a friend to Jesus but dishonour your brother and sisters.

Your focus is to save everyone from legalism, where your focus should be on putting love into action, empathy, reaching out to people, understanding where they are and responding to needs. What you are pushing is just kick back and let God take the strain.

What God is calling us to do is see where he is working and get alongside and pull as well. Talking about sin and repentance is the milk of the gospel but it appears to be all you want to concentrate on.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Faith in Christ and the spirits power, not your human effort

You sound like you don't do anything.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm not talking about Paul...I was talking about the old man...where in the world did Paul come from?

I said as you can see...that the old man is dead.....there is no more any old man!!...he died with Christ...as the scriptures say..so my point is if our old man died with Christ then the theory that our old man is still dying is not consistent with rational thinking....that is why I said is Christ dying daily like this supposedly still alive to us but dead in God's eyes old man...

The old man isn't dead. He's alive because you are alive. Reckon him to be dead as GOD does. That way Christ can live in you. Christ can't walk in you unless you acknowledge who you are and from where you have fallen (through Adam), i.e., perfection.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; Acts1:8

So what's your point? Do you think I'm stupid?

 

[james57]

There in lies the rub..

performance-based christianity = You do

grace-based Christianity = He's done it all

It is so hard for the christian to look away from themself, the problems and to look to Christ and trust him to deal with them. Shouts of:

You want a licence to sin, you are lazy and dont truly want to follow Jesus will come the way of those who want to follow that way

But in truth you have to decide if you will rely on yourself or Christ. No truly born again christian can view grace as a licence to sin, nor can they not care about following Jesus. But satan blinds many today into trying to change themselves, they are then robbed of the power.
When Jesus walked this earth he lived in the power of the holy spirit and was led of the holy spirit. Jesus of course knew where the power on Thi earth lies. Are we greater than Christ that we do not also need to rely on that power?
We need to get back to basics. Simple faith in Christ and total reliance on the holy spirits power. That is how the first century christians lived, uncluttered by all the various doctrines, ologies and isms Tha have cone along since their time.
But oh the power they saw, oh the rapid growth of the church

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I have a dead old man....and a new man now ...a new creation in Christ..and you have a new man too..when we get our mind renewed..good stuff happens to us in Christ! it's a blessing!...here is the new man..

Ephesians 4:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Who said I don't know this?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I understand now, should have seen it immediately. Some are relying on their own strength to deny the flesh and win the battle. It is about reliance on them, not the power of the Holy Spirit, through faith in Christ.

If you don't think the will is part of the battle are you really denying the flesh? Self-control is a fruit of the spirit.

 

[Grace777x70]

Resting in the finished work of Christ and on Him alone is the Christian life.

Rest is our warfare

Rest is our faith in action

Rest is our obedience to the faith and truth ( which is Jesus )

Resting in the Lord is not a lazy, passive existence. When we know that God in Christ has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, and strength by faith , we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic lifestyle.

It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in the good works that God planned for us all along.

This manifests in our lives as His love that is in us ...it is being expressed through us to others in the world. we weep with those that weep..we rejoice with those that rejoice.

If that is a terrible and heretical belief..then I am what I am in Him! I boast in what He has done!

It's always about Him...and we get to participate with Him because He loves to share His love with us as a father who loves to share with his son what he is doing

But why do we find it so hard to walk correctly?

If a christian in their heart wants to obey, why do they fail so miserably?
Is it so complicated to understand the basic truths that lead us to walk as god intends us to walk or have we made it far more complicated than it really is.
The power of the Gospel must be in the truth of it.
But God placing his laws within the christian they have been supernaturally transformed into people who in their hearts want to obey God. They have in this sense been born again. So what happens next?
The christian is now aware of their sin before God for the first time in their life for the law makes us conscious of sin. We know sin is the barrier between God and man. Se know God wants us to live holy lives. What is the most natural thing in the world to conclude. I ( me) must defeat the sin otherwise I cannot be I grace. And it sounds very plausable, but is it?
You have now, without knowing it placed yourself immediately back under the law and are relying on yourself to defeat the sin
You are not living/ standing by faith in Christ, nor are you relying on the sanctification of the holy spirit
Disaster must follow. The core of the new covenant is being ignored

The problem is the logical mind of man, he cannot accept the way to much victory in his life, it doesn't make rational sense, but as Paul states:

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God wad pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe 1cor1:21

The hardest thing in the world is for man to let go and let God. Yet that is scripturally where victory lies
Trust in Jesus brings obedience and reliance on the holy spirit brings sanctification. The true battle is not being deflected from that course

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

There in lies the rub..

performance-based christianity = You do

grace-based Christianity = He's done it all

true grace = You do your part

pseudo-grace = He's done it all

 

[james57]

You sound like you don't do anything.

I was expecting that response!
It is not easy to keep looking away from yourself and to Christ, perseverance I needed.
What would you try and do? Defeat the sin yourself? Sanctify yourself?

 

[james57]

So what's your point? Do you think I'm stupid?

The point is, you speak of what we must do, not what can and will be done in us.

In all of your recent posts when speaking of the christian walk I cannot recall you mentioning the holy spirit once, only what man must do

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The hardest thing in the world is for man to let go and let God. Yet that is scripturally where victory lies
Trust in Jesus brings obedience and reliance on the holy spirit brings sanctification. The true battle is not being deflected from that course

The true battle is not being deflected from the cross. That is the lens through which we see the risen Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I was expecting that response!
It is not easy to keep looking away from yourself and to Christ, perseverance I needed.
What would you try and do? Defeat the sin yourself? Sanctify yourself?

That's all I'm saying. It's hard because the old man isn't dead. We have to reckon him dead as GOD reckons him to be dead. That is the cross. It's not always easy.

 

[james57]

The true battle is not being deflected from the cross. That is the lens through which we see the risen Christ.

Now why are you seeking to find fault with me speaking of faith I Christ for obedience and reliance on the power of the holy spirit.

If we trust in Christ we are naturally trusting in the risen Lord who died for us

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The point is, you speak of what we must do, not what can and will be done in us.

In all of your recent posts when speaking of the christian walk I cannot recall you mentioning the holy spirit once, only what man must do

OK, fair enough. If we do our part, GOD does that which we cannot do.

 

[james57]

That's all I'm saying. It's hard because the old man isn't dead. We have to reckon him dead as GOD reckons him to be dead. That is the cross. It's not always easy.

Wouldn't the best way to reckon him dead to be to look away from him and to Jesus

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Now why are you seeking to find fault with me speaking of faith I Christ for obedience and reliance on the power of the holy spirit.

If we trust in Christ we are naturally trusting in the risen Lord who died for us

Sorry. I'm not finding fault with you, dear brother. Just trying to sharpen the edge.