Hyper grace

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Sep 4, 2012
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self-effort is all about the law.....whether for justification or for obtaining the blessings of God....this is how Abraham got into trouble.....trying to fulfill the promises of God through his own effort...look at what it produced....

self-effort is at the heart of performance-based Christianity...although admitedly most have a sincere heart to serve the Lord and do right...but ti is like Paul talks about Israel..the have a zeal for God but without knowledge.
That's the simplistic language of pseudo-grace. Praying is self-effort. Going out of one's way to do something good for someone is self-effort. Controlling the thoughts in one's mid is self-effort. Choosing to believe GOD over doubt is self-effort.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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The flesh is not the old man..the flesh is in the body..the old man died..you have a new nature now..Christ is in you!

Romans 7:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of sin is in the flesh which in the members of his body.

old man = old self before being born-again ( The power of sin in the flesh made the old man a sinner )

Flesh ( where the power of sin resides ) in body = yes

New Man = new self in Christ

Flesh in body = yes

The flesh in the body has stayed in us while the old man died and the new man came in Christ.

So, now we walk after the Spirit ( the new man ) or we can walk after the flesh ( which in our body still as it was before we were born again)

Again this is where understanding circumcision of the new man of the hear comes in. It's also called ion scripture the circumcision of the flesh and the circumcision of Christ..which is 2 sides of the same coin.

God cut away our inner man from the flesh and sealed our inner man in the Holy Spirit.

God left the power of sin in the flesh so that we would have to rely on Him totally!..much like He left the giants in the promised land so that they would have to depend on Him. The promised land is a type of "resting in Christ".






Scripture says I need to crucify the flesh daily. So much for the flesh (old man) being dead. if it was dead, I would not need to crucify it..
 
Oct 21, 2015
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The flesh is not the old man..the flesh is in the body..the old man died..you have a new nature now..Christ is in you!

Romans 7:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
Romans 7:22-23 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of sin is in the flesh which in the members of his body.

old man = old self before being born-again ( The power of sin in the flesh made the old man a sinner )

Flesh ( where the power of sin resides ) in body = yes

New Man = new self in Christ

Flesh in body = yes

The flesh in the body has stayed in us while the old man died and the new man came in Christ.

So, now we walk after the Spirit ( the new man ) or we can walk after the flesh ( which in our body still as it was before we were born again)

Again this is where understanding circumcision of the new man of the hear comes in. It's also called ion scripture the circumcision of the flesh and the circumcision of Christ..which is 2 sides of the same coin.

God cut away our inner man from the flesh and sealed our inner man in the Holy Spirit.

God left the power of sin in the flesh so that we would have to rely on Him totally!..much like He left the giants in the promised land so that they would have to depend on Him. The promised land is a type of "resting in Christ".
If Paul is speaking as a christian in rom 7:14-25 it must be unarguable that he walked after the flesh not the spirit as a christian
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Again you are "reading" stuff into what is being said... the scriptures say that Abraham used self-effort to "try" to get the promises of God to be done.

We pray and go out of our way to do something for others from the life of Christ that is flowing out of us....all the works of God flow from us...they originate in Him amd flow out of us...not we do them on our own.

Did you ever notice that the people that said Lord, Lord..did all these good works...the same works as the apostles?

Both had good works..one group it was THEM doing the good works

The other group was the Lord working with them the good works

Both had the same outward works..one was from God the other was from themselves...

There is a vast difference although outwardly they look the same.

That's the simplistic language of pseudo-grace. Praying is self-effort. Going out of one's way to do something good for someone is self-effort. Controlling the thoughts in one's mid is self-effort. Choosing to believe GOD over doubt is self-effort.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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What Christian has not walked after the flesh?..LOL +holding my hand up high+ I have!!!

Paul says that he joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man. That is a Christian with a new heart. The new creation in Christ. No sinner "joyfully concurs with the law of God in their inner man )..lol..they want to sin all they want and don't even think about it...thye joyfully consur with sinninas much as they can!..it's their nature..the old man in them!




If Paul is speaking as a christian in rom 7:14-25 it must be unarguable that he walked after the flesh not the spirit as a christian
 
Sep 4, 2012
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If Paul is speaking as a christian in rom 7:14-25 it must be unarguable that he walked after the flesh not the spirit as a christian
There's no question that Paul was referring to his life as a believer. He asked who would deliver him from his body of death, then thanked GOD for freeing him from the power of sin in his flesh, then said his mind (of Christ) served the law of GOD, but his carnal mind (flesh) served the law of sin.

Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but with my flesh [I am serving] the law of sin. Romans 7:24-25
 
Jan 27, 2013
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are we going to bypass death.
free to try, free to be all you can be,
v i set you free for this purpose.

for example.
its wrong to kill, but ok to bomb.

ie we are followers of faith, in a god through jesus. not mind readers to actions of others.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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What Christian has not walked after the flesh?..LOL +holding my hand up high+ I have!!!

Paul says that he joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man. That is a Christian with a new heart. The new creation in Christ. No sinner "joyfully concurs with the law of God in their inner man )..lol..they want to sin all they want and don't even think about it...thye joyfully consur with sinninas much as they can!..it's their nature..the old man in them!
In rom 6:16 Paul says if you are a slave to sin it leads to death

In rom 7:14 he states he is sold as a slave to sin. Therefore I he is speaking as a christian he is condemning himself according to 6:16

In 6:14 he states sin shall not be your master for you ate not under law but under grace. In 7:14-25 sin was definitely Paul's master. I could go on and on

There is a huge difference between perfection and the state Paul was in, in 7:14-25. The christian who understands grace should be between the two if they are not a new christian

However, people who believe they must crucify their own flesh will relate to the Paul of 7:14-25 therefore they must believe he is speaking as a christian in those verses( I don't mean you)
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Again you are "reading" stuff into what is being said... the scriptures say that Abraham used self-effort to "try" to get the promises of God to be done.

We pray and go out of our way to do something for others from the life of Christ that is flowing out of us....all the works of God flow from us...they originate in Him amd flow out of us...not we do them on our own.

Did you ever notice that the people that said Lord, Lord..did all these good works...the same works as the apostles?

Both had good works..one group it was THEM doing the good works

The other group was the Lord working with them the good works

Both had the same outward works..one was from God the other was from themselves...

There is a vast difference although outwardly they look the same.
One is done in the spirit, the other in the flesh. Yet it's all effort.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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There's no question that Paul was referring to his life as a believer. He asked who would deliver him from his body of death, then thanked GOD for freeing him from the power of sin in his flesh, then said his mind (of Christ) served the law of GOD, but his carnal mind (flesh) served the law of sin.

Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but with my flesh [I am serving] the law of sin. Romans 7:24-25
In rom 6:16 Paul states if you ard a slave to sin it leads to death. In 7:14 he states he is sold as a slave of sin. He is condemning himself if he is speaking as a christian. If he is sold as a slave to sin, sin must be his master. Yet in 6:14 he states sin shall NOT be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Come on heftd.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Amen! Preach it!!

I love the very next verse...how does God deliver us from this mess?

1) There is no condemnation for those in Christ....(hyper-grace alert!)

2)..then he tells about the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death

3) walk after the spirit..our new nature in our inner man where the Holy Spirit is...then we will not give in to the lusts of that pesky flesh which is in our body

Ever notice it is the "works" of the flesh..stuff we do

It's the fruit of the spirit ( life flowing naturally out of us )

There's no question that Paul was referring to his life as a believer. He asked who would deliver him from his body of death, then thanked GOD for freeing him from the power of sin in his flesh, then said his mind (of Christ) served the law of GOD, but his carnal mind (flesh) served the law of sin.
Wretched man [that] I [am]! Who will rescue me from this body of death? But thanks [be] to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but with my flesh [I am serving] the law of sin. Romans 7:24-25
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Amen! Preach it!!

I love the very next verse...how does God deliver us from this mess?

1) There is no condemnation for those in Christ....(hyper-grace alert!)

2)..then he tells about the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death

3) walk after the spirit..our new nature in our inner man where the Holy Spirit is...then we will not give in to the lusts of that pesky flesh which is in our body

Ever notice it is the "works" of the flesh..stuff we do

It's the fruit of the spirit ( life flowing naturally out of us )
Please quote verses five and six. Are you really saying those verses reflect the Paul of 7:14-25?

Rom 7:14-25 is out of sync with chs 6&8.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Exactly!..so outward good works on their own are not necessarily indicative of their origin...that's the way I look at it..I' don't think we are supposed to try to figure out whether what other people do is them or the Lord...but we can look to ourselves for that answer in our lives...

One is done in the spirit, the other in the flesh. Yet it's all effort.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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In rom 6:16 Paul states if you ard a slave to sin it leads to death. In 7:14 he states he is sold as a slave of sin. He is condemning himself if he is speaking as a christian. If he is sold as a slave to sin, sin must be his master. Yet in 6:14 he states sin shall NOT be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Come on heftd.
Paul recognized we have dual nature. If you obey one you die, if you obey the other you live. Simple. Unbelievers do not have this dual nature so they can only be slaves of sin. We have the choice of who we serve.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I'm on my way to the store..I'll answer this one when I get back..great question!


Please quote verses five and six. Are you really saying those verses reflect the Paul of 7:14-25?

Rom 7:14-25 is out of sync with chs 6&8.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the spirit have their minds set on what the spirit dezires.
The mind of sinful man is death but the mind controlled by the spirit is life and peach ch8:5&6

For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die ch8:13

In rom 7:14-25 Paul was sold as a slave to sin

He couldn't do the good he wanted to do, but what he hated he did

Paul has the desire to do what is good but he could not carry it out

Paul doesn't do the good he wants to do but the evil he does not want to do this he keeps on doing etc


Theres no way it aligns, however, I am sure you will find a way!!!!
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Paul recognized we have dual nature. If you obey one you die, if you obey the other you live. Simple. Unbelievers do not have this dual nature so they can only be slaves of sin. We have the choice of who we serve.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: Deuteronomy 30:19
You are trying your best to make them align.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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I'm on my way to the store..I'll answer this one when I get back..great question!
You should be agreeing with me

Is there great power in the cross of Christ or not?

You keep quoting
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.
Paul plainly admits sin is his master n 7:14-25

It is perfectly understandable Tha people who believe they have to crucify their flesh by their own effort relate to the Paul of rom7:14-25, but you don't believe that lol.
Rom7:14-25 is out of sync with everything else Paul preached of the gospel message. Surely you can see that
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Exactly!..so outward good works on their own are not necessarily indicative of their origin...that's the way I look at it..I' don't think we are supposed to try to figure out whether what other people do is them or the Lord...but we can look to ourselves for that answer in our lives...
Lol
Well I'm glad I've got you two agreeing anyway