Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

Lol..ok..i could not figure out what you were asking.before....sorry.

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us..

If that is your question?

Well I wont get into nouns and verbs lol.

It is simple

If we accept it I Christs responsibility to change us through the power of the holy spirit and not our own will we then be left powerless to do anything other than follow after the flesh rather than the spirit( rom7:14-25)

Please,. No long post. Just a simple answer to a simple question

 

[james57]

Lol..ok..i could not figure out what you were asking.before....sorry.

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us..

If that is your question?

The question is. If we accept it is Christs responsibility to change us, not our own but his, through the power of the holy spirit, will the christian then be left powerless to do anything other than follow after the flesh rather than the spirit( rom7:14-25)

 

[Grace777x70]

He is describing his life ...I don't see where the timing of when he discovers this is relevant to him talking about it.

If Paul is speaking in the present he is not just discovering anything. He wrote romans after many years of being a christian

 

[james57]

He is describing his life ...I don't see where the timing of when he discovers this is relevant to him talking about it.

I made the point in response to your comment

As you have admitted in those verses the flesh reigned in Paul's life, you are saying Paul is speaking of his whole life as a christian where sin reigned in him. Sin was then gis master and he was unable to follow after the holy spirit

 

[Grace777x70]

sin is reigned in Paul's flesh..BUT we are not in the flesh..we are in Christ..so once we have knowledge of us in Christ and no condemnation..we learn to walk by the Spirit..

Maybe I'm just not really getting what you are asking ..I see no conflict in any of the romans chapters 6-8..In all 3 chapters he is discussing principals as he sees them...I don't think the they are necessarily in chronological order of events in his life..

I made the point in response to your comment

As you have admitted in those verses the flesh reigned in Paul's life, you are saying Paul is speaking of his whole life as a christian where sin reigned in him. Sin was then gis master and he was unable to follow after the holy spirit

 

[Grace777x70]

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us....self-control is a fruit of the Spirit - not the flesh's willpower...different things..one is a productof the flesh..the other is a fruit..

If that is your question?

The question is. If we accept it is Christs responsibility to change us, not our own but his, through the power of the holy spirit, will the christian then be left powerless to do anything other than follow after the flesh rather than the spirit( rom7:14-25)

 

[james57]

sin is reigned in Paul's flesh..BUT we are not in the flesh..we are in Christ..so once we have knowledge of us in Christ and no condemnation..we learn to walk by the Spirit..

Maybe I'm just not really getting what you are asking ..I see no conflict in any of the romans chapters 6-8..In all 3 chapters he is discussing principals as he sees them...I don't think the they are necessarily in chronological order of events in his life..

But the christian either follows after the flesh or the spirit, you accept that dont you? All the person in rom7:14-25 was able to do was follow after the flesh, it mastered him, he was its slave.
And Paul wrote romans nearer the end of his christian life than the begining

 

[james57]

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us....self-control is a fruit of the Spirit - not the flesh's willpower...different things..one is a productof the flesh..the other is a fruit..

If that is your question?

But the person in rom 7:14-25 had no self control of the spirit did he, because he continually gave into the flesh.
You are right, a fruit of the spirit is self control. So why did Paul not have the fruit of the spirit as a seasoned christian.

BTW I don't believe my question I hard to understand, someone else easily understood it

 

[Grace777x70]

yes..the Christian follows after the flesh or the spirit..

all I see in roman 7;14-25 is Paul talking about how sin was operating in his flesh and it was bothering him...waging war in his mind..

It makes nor difference whether he wrote about this the day he got saved or the day he dies....it's irrelevant ..he is just describing how sin works in the flesh..wars on his mind..etc...I just do not see any conflict at all...

But the christian either follows after the flesh or the spirit, you accept that dont you? All the person in rom7:14-25 was able to do was follow after the flesh, it mastered him, he was its slave.
And Paul wrote romans nearer the end of his christian life than the begining

 

[Grace777x70]

You said..."So why did Paul not have the fruit of the spirit as a seasoned Christian"..i do not understand what you are asking here..I have no reference point..Oaul had the fruit of the spirit the day he met Jesus and was born again..he just didn't know it...

sorry....somethimes I am slooooow...lol

But the person in rom 7:14-25 had no self control of the spirit did he, because he continually gave into the flesh.
You are right, a fruit of the spirit is self control. So why did Paul not have the fruit of the spirit as a seasoned christian.

BTW I don't believe my question I hard to understand, someone else easily understood it

 

[james57]

yes..the Christian follows after the flesh or the spirit..

all I see in roman 7;14-25 is Paul talking about how sin was operating in his flesh and it was bothering him...waging war in his mind..

It makes nor difference whether he wrote about this the day he got saved or the day he dies....it's irrelevant ..he is just describing how sin works in the flesh..wars on his mind..etc...I just do not see any conflict at all...

So you agree, the christian either follows after the flesh or the spirit
You have accepted the flesh reigned in the man spoken of in rom 7:14-25 That man could only be led of the flesh, he could not be led of the spirit. For he said he could not do the good he wanted to do( being led of the spirit)'but he did Tha which he hated to do/evil( followed after the flesh)

Is that truly how you believe Paul spent his whole christian life?

 

[eternallife7]

But the christian either follows after the flesh or the spirit, you accept that dont you? All the person in rom7:14-25 was able to do was follow after the flesh, it mastered him, he was its slave.
And Paul wrote romans nearer the end of his christian life than the begining

Paul is talking about how once we are saved sin not commenting sin but sin itself isn't removed from our bodies and that is why he is discussing it because he wants us to know that if we agree that the law is good than when sin causes us to do something we don't want to do it isn't us doing it but sin itself is doing it. Paul was an old man by this time and already knew to walk in the Spirit as told us in previous chapters.

 

[james57]

You said..."So why did Paul not have the fruit of the spirit as a seasoned Christian"..i do not understand what you are asking here..I have no reference point..Oaul had the fruit of the spirit the day he met Jesus and was born again..he just didn't know it...

sorry....somethimes I am slooooow...lol

I'm not sure you are slow if i am honest. You haven't seemed to have had any trouble previously understanding questions. Dont let yourself down, you have done well in this thread in the main discussion of it. If you find questions difficult to answer either say so or ignore them. That is the better way, not trying to bog the conversation down to evade difficult questions. I mean that kindly

 

[Grace777x70]

gotcha!


I couldn't grasp the difficulty as to me there was no problem with anything Paul said...I just didn't see any conflict in anything Paul said in any of the chapters in Romans ...I didn't see the chapters as a chronological order in his life as a Christian...he was discussing different subjects at different times..building up to where in Chapter 8..he tells us No Condmnation in Christ! That is the final beautiful truth! We are free!! Yeaaa!!

I'm not sure you are slow if i am honest. You haven't seemed to have had any trouble previously understanding questions. Dont let yourself down, you have done well in this thread in the main discussion of it. If you find questions difficult to answer either say so or ignore them. That is the better way, not trying to bog the conversation down to evade difficult questions. I mean that kindly

 

[james57]

Paul is talking about how once we are saved sin not commenting sin but sin itself isn't removed from our bodies and that is why he is discussing it because he wants us to know that if we agree that the law is good than when sin causes us to do something we don't want to do it isn't us doing it but sin itself is doing it. Paul was an old man by this time and already knew to walk in the Spirit as told us in previous chapters.

How could Paul have known about walking in the spirit if he is speaking as a christian in those verses. You have already admitted sin reigned in him in those verses, he could not do the good he wanted to but rather the evil he hated to do Tha ge kept on doing. He does not say sometimes he did good and sometimes he did evil did he. This concurs with verse 14 when he states he is sold as as a slave to sin

 

[eternallife7]

How could Paul have known about walking in the spirit if he is speaking as a christian in those verses. You have already admitted sin reigned in him in those verses, he could not do the good he wanted to but rather the evil he hated to do Tha ge kept on doing. He does not say sometimes he did good and sometimes he did evil did he. This concurs with verse 14 when he states he is sold as as a slave to sin

Romans 3:19 Thru 21 shows Paul knew how to walk in the Spirit. Also there is a big difference between sin reigning in our bodies and sin causing us to do things we do not want to do.

 

[james57]

gotcha!


I couldn't grasp the difficulty as to me there was no problem with anything Paul said...I just didn't see any conflict in anything Paul said in any of the chapters in Romans ...I didn't see the chapters as a chronological order in his life as a Christian...he was discussing different subjects at different times..building up to where in Chapter 8..he tells us No Condmnation in Christ! That is the final beautiful truth! We are free!! Yeaaa!!

I think for your sake we should stop this discussion for I am sure any unbaised person can easily see what the problem is. The man in rom 7:14-25 was sins slave, he could only follow after the flesh, not the spirit. The flesh reigned in him
That is opposed to the core message of Paul as to what happens when the christian lives under grace rather than law.
As I said you have done very well in this thread concerning the main topic of it.......

 

[james57]

Romans 3:19 Thru 21 shows Paul knew how to walk in the Spirit. Also there is a big difference between sin reigning in our bodies and sin causing us to do things we do not want to do.

Well you have admitted sin reigned in the flesh of the man in those verses and he admits he was a slave to what he did not want to do/ the evil he did not want to do. That IS NOT describing a person who knows how to walk in the spirit

 

[Grace777x70]

I do not see the conflict james...Paul in verse 14 says that he is of flesh..sold into bondage to sin..I really do not see any conflict with romans 6:14 here.

One time he is talking about flesh..another time he talks about his inner man not being under grace..

Hmmm..the word "slave" is not the same word as "slave" in Romans 6:14..they are two completely different words..the NASB translates them accurately..

But as you say..maybe we should let it go..lol

Ok now..how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? ( I actually read where in a seminary that's what they discussed )

I think for your sake we should stop this discussion for I am sure any unbaised person can easily see what the problem is. The man in rom 7:14-25 was sins slave, he could only follow after the flesh, not the spirit. The flesh reigned in him
That is opposed to the core message of Paul as to what happens when the christian lives under grace rather than law.
As I said you have done very well in this thread concerning the main topic of it.......

 

[eternallife7]

I know that grace is how we are to live. Paul was speaking in the present time and as I said earlier Paul already knew how to walk in the Spirit.