Hyper grace

[james57]

A christian does NOT ask God for forgiveness to get their right standing before him back. They are secure in his family.
However, to say it I wrong to ask Gods forgiveness for grieving the holy spirit through wilfull deliberate sin is crazy and gives rise for people to attack grace
When we ask a loving parents forgiveness for grieving them we do not do so to get our place in the family back for that is secure.
We ask their forgiveness for hurting them as we love them.

To say it I wrong to follow the prayer Jesus taught his disciples is I am afraid evidence of going off the straight and narrow of correct doctrine. To use scripture to try and create a doctrine to support not asking the father to forgive your trespasses shows you are not being led of the holy spirit in Thi matter but have allowed yourself to go beyond the teaching of grace

I repeat. To ask forgiveness from the father, is NOT done to get your righteousness back before him. But when we offend those we love we seek their forgiveness for offending them

 

[Grace777x70]

james....no one said it was "wrong" to ask for forgiveness..it is just not needed because our sins are already forgiven in Christ. I have posted before that we are free to talk to our loving Father however we choose and I love to talk with my Father about everything. I tell Him..that was a sin..that is not who I am in Christ..that behavior grieves your Holy SPirit in me....thank you for your Son's perfect sacrifice on my behalf..He is my righteousness...thank you Jesus for Your salvation! I love you! I talk everything over with Him.

No one is saying what you do with your Father is wrong...everything is ok....

There is no conflict here....let's live with the faith that we have on subjects and honor each other...

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

 

[ladylynn]

A christian does NOT ask God for forgiveness to get their right standing before him back. They are secure in his family.
However, to say it I wrong to ask Gods forgiveness for grieving the holy spirit through wilfull deliberate sin is crazy and gives rise for people to attack grace
When we ask a loving parents forgiveness for grieving them we do not do so to get our place in the family back for that is secure.
We ask their forgiveness for hurting them as we love them.

To say it I wrong to follow the prayer Jesus taught his disciples is I am afraid evidence of going off the straight and narrow of correct doctrine. To use scripture to try and create a doctrine to support not asking the father to forgive your trespasses shows you are not being led of the holy spirit in Thi matter but have allowed yourself to go beyond the teaching of grace

I repeat. To ask forgiveness from the father, is NOT done to get your righteousness back before him. But when we offend those we love we seek their forgiveness for offending them

Hey Brother James57., When I sin, I do tell the Lord how sorry I am for that thought or for that act but even MORE so confessing my BELIEF AND FAITH THAT JESUS died for those sins and how it's ONLY because of Jesus that I'm aware of this truth.,so thankful for the fact He has already made provision for every sin.

The focus goes back to Jesus and the joy of that kind of love that forgives like this without my paying more. What He did was enough AND it pleases the Father when I am aware of that great salvation and then the HolySpirit witnesses with my spirit that I am a daughter because of Jesus and I rejoice and am strengthened. Then those rivers of living water come flowing out of my belly. I never experienced that kind of truth until accepting this kind of grace. He gives us this assurance because as we are beholding Jesus we are seeing deep within ourselves the thoughts and intents of our hearts that need to be disposed of because they are not like Jesus., and our new man.,we have to be willing to get rid of old habits of ingrained anger or jealousies and how to show kindness to someone who is mean and rotten to us. We NEED that grace reality so we do not condemn ourselves in the process. We can't do it ourselves and that is why He said to abide on the vine.

None of us Christians see things exactly the same way so it's not my intention to change someone's mind. I just want to share the awesome truth of grace and the ease we have since Jesus has taken care of every single sin we could ever commit., AND the ones we are not even aware of and have yet to find out as we are beholding Jesus and repenting (changing our minds) having our minds renewed in the knowledge of Christ., then He also takes care of the GUILT and SHAME. He promised He has overcome sin.,the world and the devil., come unto Me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Abide in Me.. It's so true that the JOY of the LORD is our STRENGTH. There is such JOY in the truth.

He keeps admonishing us to look to Him in everything. Grace does teach us to do this. Without growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ I was not able enjoy the fullness or my salvation. Grace is for us to use and learn from. And there is even more He will reveal to us as we seek to know more truth. The truths in the Bible are new every morning.

The HolySpirit's leads in this joyful relationship, I've found that there are sins we are not even aware of deep inside that have yet to be brought out and dealt with in the light. We don't have to be afraid to face them now.

About the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught the apostles. That is actually an old covenant prayer. I used to have it framed in my house and say it daily as a model. And it is a good model for prayer but there are some things that are not applicable to the believer in the new covenant.

Our Father who art in heaven., hallowed be Thy name., Thy kingdom come (it's here in us) Thy will be done., on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day. our daily bread...

And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us... (God forgives us based on Jesus not on anything else. especially not on our ability to forgive others. We learn that forgiving others is following Christ, we love Him because He first loved us. We do not forgive to get forgiveness., we first get forgiven and learn how and then are able to forgive. That is the new covenant differenc.)

And lead us not into temptation. (testings) but deliver us from evil., for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever.


It's our responsibility to read the Bible and ask the HolySpirit to rightly divide the truth for us.,what is old covenant, what is new covenant. Then be willing to change our minds. Even with long standing teachings on how we were taught that God would not forgive us if we don't forgive someone.,We are forgiven IN Christ already., like the Lords Prayer or The Apostles prayer. Jesus had not gone to the cross when He instructed His disciples in that prayer and it applied 100% at that time but has to be rightly divided for us in the new covenant (after the cross) Remember the vale was rent in two... something changed when Jesus died and paid for our sins. The way was clear.

sorry so long..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

james....no one said it was "wrong" to ask for forgiveness..it is just not needed because our sins are already forgiven in Christ. I have posted before that we are free to talk to our loving Father however we choose and I love to talk with my Father about everything. I tell Him..that was a sin..that is not who I am in Christ..that behavior grieves your Holy SPirit in me....thank you for your Son's perfect sacrifice on my behalf..He is my righteousness...thank you Jesus for Your salvation! I love you! I talk everything over with Him.

No, of course not. That is who you are in Adam. That's why you sinned.

 

[JFSurvivor]

Over the past months I have been surprised at the subject being discussed and the aggression of various parties.

Michael Brown published a book on this subject, which seems to be headed by teaching from Joseph Prince.

It seems these people blame sin on the flesh, and attribute perfection to the spirit, by claiming sin is forgiven past, present and future.

A lot of the positions people have taken appear to fall into some of these camps, OSAS, with some calling those who believe in righteousness as pharisees.

So it is of little surprise therefore such arguments have come on this site, though the actual theological sources are often not openly declared.

My conclusion has been those who held to hyper grace fell into the exact problems described, a failure to deal with embedded sin and attitudes from the past, and condemnatory of anybody who suggested we are growing and being sanctified. Some preachers appeared to be going as far as saying to suggest growth in the christian life was evil, because it implied we were not perfect.

I suggest if it interests you, you listen to the points Michael is making, as for me it is obvious heresy, and causing lots of confusion and division among some good people, or maybe not so good people.

[video=youtube;GAtlMPvZGxg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAtlMPvZGxg[/video]

I love this video! I think it hits the nail on the head! :-D

 

[Grace777x70]

Give yourself an equal look before you make decisions. Look at this and listen to your heart within you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4u7uR1u7LE

I love this video! I think it hits the nail on the head! :-D

 

[james57]

Hey Brother James57., When I sin, I do tell the Lord how sorry I am for that thought or for that act but even MORE so confessing my BELIEF AND FAITH THAT JESUS died for those sins and how it's ONLY because of Jesus that I'm aware of this truth.,so thankful for the fact He has already made provision for every sin.

The focus goes back to Jesus and the joy of that kind of love that forgives like this without my paying more. What He did was enough AND it pleases the Father when I am aware of that great salvation and then the HolySpirit witnesses with my spirit that I am a daughter because of Jesus and I rejoice and am strengthened. Then those rivers of living water come flowing out of my belly. I never experienced that kind of truth until accepting this kind of grace. He gives us this assurance because as we are beholding Jesus we are seeing deep within ourselves the thoughts and intents of our hearts that need to be disposed of because they are not like Jesus., and our new man.,we have to be willing to get rid of old habits of ingrained anger or jealousies and how to show kindness to someone who is mean and rotten to us. We NEED that grace reality so we do not condemn ourselves in the process. We can't do it ourselves and that is why He said to abide on the vine.

None of us Christians see things exactly the same way so it's not my intention to change someone's mind. I just want to share the awesome truth of grace and the ease we have since Jesus has taken care of every single sin we could ever commit., AND the ones we are not even aware of and have yet to find out as we are beholding Jesus and repenting (changing our minds) having our minds renewed in the knowledge of Christ., then He also takes care of the GUILT and SHAME. He promised He has overcome sin.,the world and the devil., come unto Me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest. Abide in Me.. It's so true that the JOY of the LORD is our STRENGTH. There is such JOY in the truth.

He keeps admonishing us to look to Him in everything. Grace does teach us to do this. Without growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ I was not able enjoy the fullness or my salvation. Grace is for us to use and learn from. And there is even more He will reveal to us as we seek to know more truth. The truths in the Bible are new every morning.

The HolySpirit's leads in this joyful relationship, I've found that there are sins we are not even aware of deep inside that have yet to be brought out and dealt with in the light. We don't have to be afraid to face them now.

About the Lord's Prayer that Jesus taught the apostles. That is actually an old covenant prayer. I used to have it framed in my house and say it daily as a model. And it is a good model for prayer but there are some things that are not applicable to the believer in the new covenant.

Our Father who art in heaven., hallowed be Thy name., Thy kingdom come (it's here in us) Thy will be done., on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day. our daily bread...

And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us... (God forgives us based on Jesus not on anything else. especially not on our ability to forgive others. We learn that forgiving others is following Christ, we love Him because He first loved us. We do not forgive to get forgiveness., we first get forgiven and learn how and then are able to forgive. That is the new covenant differenc.)

And lead us not into temptation. (testings) but deliver us from evil., for Thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever.


It's our responsibility to read the Bible and ask the HolySpirit to rightly divide the truth for us.,what is old covenant, what is new covenant. Then be willing to change our minds. Even with long standing teachings on how we were taught that God would not forgive us if we don't forgive someone.,We are forgiven IN Christ already., like the Lords Prayer or The Apostles prayer. Jesus had not gone to the cross when He instructed His disciples in that prayer and it applied 100% at that time but has to be rightly divided for us in the new covenant (after the cross) Remember the vale was rent in two... something changed when Jesus died and paid for our sins. The way was clear.

sorry so long..

Absolutely, Jesus died for all my sins, past, present and future I am not under law but under grace. My place in the family of God I assured despite my imperfections
Does that mean if I wilfully follow after the flesh rather than the spirit I should not ask God to forgive me for grieving the spirit because I love him? Seems a bit far fetched to me
If I grieve a loved family member, do i not go to them and seek their forgiveness for offending them? I know my place in the family I not threatened, but because I love them I want my peace back, so I ask their forgiveness for offending them
Is Jesus really teaching old covenant in the lords prayer?

It does seem to me some are afraid if they seek their heavenly fathers forgiveness they are back under legalism. It isn't like that at all. We love our heavenly father. The most natural thing in the world is to ask your fathers forgiveness if you grieve him. That isn't legalism, that is love expressing itself in Godly sorrow

 

[ladylynn]

Give yourself an equal look before you make decisions. Look at this and listen to your heart within you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4u7uR1u7LE

Excellent message Grace777, Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think a fundamental misconception about the cross feeds the idea of Hyper-Grace. It's based on the belief that all past, present, and future sin was forgiven at the cross. That can't be true because a penalty can't be paid for crimes not yet committed. Christ's death paid for sins committed under the old covenant.

And because of this, [Christ] is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, [because] a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions [committed] during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15​

Christ's death sealed the new covenant, which guarantees forgiveness of sin.

This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28​

So the mechanism of forgiveness was established nearly 2000 years ago, which makes forgiveness available to all for all time. But forgiveness is to be appropriated in the here and now, and not as some detached event that occurred nearly 2000 years ago.

I think this is the danger of the Hyper-Grace teaching. It short-circuits the process of seeking forgiveness in the here and now by teaching that there is no need for it because all sin was forgiven as a judicial act at the cross. That just doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[james57]

I think a fundamental misconception about the cross feeds the idea of Hyper-Grace. It's based on the belief that all past, present, and future sin was forgiven at the cross. That can't be true because a penalty can't be paid for crimes not yet committed. Christ's death paid for sins committed under the old covenant.

And because of this, [Christ] is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that, [because] a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions [committed] during the first covenant, those who are the called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15​

Christ's death sealed the new covenant, which guarantees forgiveness of sin.

This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28​

So the mechanism of forgiveness was established nearly 2000 years ago, which makes forgiveness available to all for all time. But forgiveness is to be appropriated in the here and now, and not as some detached event that occurred nearly 2000 years ago.

I think this is the danger of the Hyper-Grace teaching. It short-circuits the process of seeking forgiveness in the here and now by teaching that there is no need for it because all sin was forgiven as a judicial act at the cross.

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from observing the law rom 3:20

He is definitely meaning that in the context of sin being transgression of the law as I am happy to explain if necessary

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22)

Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

These statements can only be true if Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary, past, present and future

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from observing the law rom 3:20

He is definitely meaning that in the context of sin being transgression of the law as I am happy to explain if necessary

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22)

Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

These statements can only be true if Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary, past, present and future

The law changed with the covenant. Under the old covenant, Israel sinned against the law. Under the new covenant, we sin against the light. We were given a new spirit and told to abide in the light. When we don't, we sin against the light. You can look back to the cross for forgiveness, but it will point you to the living one who gives it.

 

[james57]

The law changed with the covenant. Under the old covenant, Israel sinned against the law. Under the new covenant, we sin against the light. We were given a new spirit and told to abide in the light. When we don't, we sin against the light. You can look back to the cross for forgiveness, but it will point you to the living one who gives it.

Under the new covenant sin is lawlessness / transgression of the law.
What was as a persons righteousness under the old covenant? Observing the law.

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness.

You can try and invent a new doctrine if you like, but it wont work.

For by one sacrifice he made forever perfect those who are being made holy heb 10:14

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree james!

A good question here might be. What if we forget to "confess" any sin..will they not be forgiven when we are before God. We are in big trouble.

In the Old Covenant the man that brings the lamb has his sins covered for a year before he has to "lamb up again". Jesus' blood has taken away all sin. The priest looks at the perfectness of the lamb not the guy who brought it.

John the Baptist says.."Behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world."

Sin is a done deal in Christ..

the self-performance-based Christianity is sin-conscious. and self conscious focusing on what they must do..

grace-based Christianity is Christ-conscious and focuses on what Christ has done for us in His finished work.

All sin, past, present and future is done away with in Christ's sacrifice..His blood speaks of better theings then the blood of bulls and goats.


Hebrews 10:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Let's not deny the magnificent work of our Lord Jesus Christ for us!

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from observing the law rom 3:20

He is definitely meaning that in the context of sin being transgression of the law as I am happy to explain if necessary

Paul states the christian has a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22)

Paul states Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

These statements can only be true if Jesus died for all your sin at Calvary, past, present and future

 

[james57]

I agree james!

A good question here might be. What if we forget to "confess" any sin..will they not be forgiven when we are before God. We are in big trouble.

In the Old Covenant the man that brings the lamb has his sins covered for a year before he has to "lamb up again". Jesus' blood has taken away all sin. The priest looks at the perfectness of the lamb not the guy who brought it.

John the Baptist says.."Behold the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world."

Sin is a done deal in Christ..

the self-performance-based Christianity is sin-conscious. and self conscious focusing on what they must do..

grace-based Christianity is Christ-conscious and focuses on what Christ has done for us in His finished work.

All sin, past, present and future is done away with in Christ's sacrifice..His blood speaks of better theings then the blood of bulls and goats.


Hebrews 10:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Let's not deny the magnificent work of our Lord Jesus Christ for us!

Yes, you are perfect forever in Gods sight because Jesus died for your sins at Calvary, therefore hrftd new doctrine has to be false

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Under the new covenant sin is lawlessness / transgression of the law.
What was as a persons righteousness under the old covenant? Observing the law.

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness.

You can try and invent a new doctrine if you like, but it wont work.

For by one sacrifice he made forever perfect those who are being made holy heb 10:14

Find fault with what I said and point it out. Don't throw your talking points at me and expect it to make sense or refute what I said.

 

[james57]

Find fault with what I said and point it out. Don't throw your talking points at me and expect it to make sense or refute what I said.

Show me from scripture your belief. Show me the definition of sin changed between old and new covenants from the bible

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Show me from scripture your belief. Show me the definition of sin changed between old and new covenants from the bible

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

And [when the holy spirit] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, John 16:8-9

And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

And [when the holy spirit] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, John 16:8-9

And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19​

This is sin

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19​

 

[james57]

This is the work of God: that you believe into the one [the father] set apart. John 6:29

And [when the holy spirit] comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, John 16:8-9

And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19​

That doesn't show the definition of sin changed. John plainly tells us the definition of sin did not change. Sin because theydo not believe in Jesus because he died for the christians sins. He died for their transgressions of the law, therefore you are not guilty of sin if you accept Christ as your saviour. If you don't you ate guilty of sin. Context!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That doesn't show the definition of sin changed. John plainly tells us the definition of sin did not change. Sin because theydo not believe in Jesus because he died for the christians sins. He died for their transgressions of the law, therefore you are not guilty of sin if you accept Christ as your saviour. If you don't you ate guilty of sin. Context!!!

Sin is rebellion against the revealed will of GOD. GOD's revealed will is to believe in his son and love his people. Where was that said under the law of the old covenant?