Hyper grace

[Grace777x70]

There is a huge difference between a shadow and the true substance!...regarding covenants

try hugging the shadow of your wife...now kiss the real thing..Look's like a better covenant to me!

 

[Hoffco]

Both of you are missing the real truth of Law and grace. ,faith and works. If either one, in these couples, twins, are missing, you are into heresy. All grace and no law is heresy, faith and no works is heresy. We dare NOT mess with God's formula ; God' saves by GRACE thru faith (the gift of God) and works which are created in us by God's workmanship, the new heart, the gift of God.. Eph.2:1-10

 

[james57]

Both of you are missing the real truth of Law and grace. ,faith and works. If either one, in these couples, twins, are missing, you are into heresy. All grace and no law is heresy, faith and no works is heresy. We dare NOT mess with God's formula ; God' saves by GRACE thru faith (the gift of God) and works which are created in us by God's workmanship, the new heart, the gift of God.. Eph.2:1-10

No you are missing the truth. Attach works to salvation and attaining heaven and the convert will believe in a righteousness of works of the law.
Dont attach it and the true convert will do works out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. They are the works God requires

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen! Faith without corresponding actions is dead! The actions are a
"result" of our faith.

For example..when we heard of the gospel of Christ...faith comes by hearing...we "said with our mouth" Jesus you are my Lord ...I believe you were raised from the dead! I receive you! I believe in you!...that is your "work" for your faith.

Works are corresponding actions to our faith. We believe, therefore we speak.. Speaking is a corresponding action as well as "receiving the messengers as Rahab did " to add "life" to what she believed.

"Works" do not produce faith and are not necessarily a proof of faith on their own merit - but real faith will have some kind of corresponding works to it to bring that faith to life.

 

[PeterJens]

Paul is arguing there I no difference between the two covenants??

He has made us competent of a new covenant- not of the letter but of the spirit, for the letter kills but the spirit gives life 2cor3:6

Jesus is the fulfillment of the people of Israel, its cornerstone, the work that everything points towards.
You talk as if the prophets, the faithful in the people of Israel did not know God.

If that was so the old testament is pointless and empty. But think about that concept. God worked through Israel for a reason, he had Moses write the pentateuch, psalms, the prophets etc for a reason. David, is a brother in Christ, though he only knew the shadow. Moses and Elijah knew Jesus, the mount of transfiguration.

Read the failure of the society of Isaiah and you will see righteousness and sin are the issues, and Gods judgement that will result. The same issues, though not as extreme are around today.

In many ways I am now growing in greater appreciation of the old testament today, because I understand better the depravity of man and what they are capable of as demonstrated by ISIS, Rwanda etc

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.
Ezekiel 16:20-22

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

A christians righteousness/ rightstanding/justification before God is faith in Christ, from first to last( rom1:17) the whole of their christian life

I agree,

​Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord [by faith], walk in him [by faith], Colossians 2:6​

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace has laws! They are all written on our new heart by God Himself.

1) The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus

2) the law of love

3) the law of liberty in Christ Jesus

4) the law of faith in Him and in Him alone!

We are not lawless!

Let's have some faith in the Holy Spirit in us! Let's have faith in the finished work of our Lord!

Both of you are missing the real truth of Law and grace. ,faith and works. If either one, in these couples, twins, are missing, you are into heresy. All grace and no law is heresy, faith and no works is heresy. We dare NOT mess with God's formula ; God' saves by GRACE thru faith (the gift of God) and works which are created in us by God's workmanship, the new heart, the gift of God.. Eph.2:1-10

 

[james57]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the people of Israel, its cornerstone, the work that everything points towards.
You talk as if the prophets, the faithful in the people of Israel did not know God.

If that was so the old testament is pointless and empty. But think about that concept. God worked through Israel for a reason, he had Moses write the pentateuch, psalms, the prophets etc for a reason. David, is a brother in Christ, though he only knew the shadow. Moses and Elijah knew Jesus, the mount of transfiguration.

Read the failure of the society of Isaiah and you will see righteousness and sin are the issues, and Gods judgement that will result. The same issues, though not as extreme are around today.

In many ways I am now growing in greater appreciation of the old testament today, because I understand better the depravity of man and what they are capable of as demonstrated by ISIS, Rwanda etc

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.
Ezekiel 16:20-22

Again, quote where I seem to suggest the prophets and the faithful did not know God under the old covenant

 

[Grace777x70]

They did not know God the way that He actually is.

Jesus said..No man knows the Father..but the Son..I have come to reveal Your name..Father..

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father...we look to Him to see what the Father is really like. Huge difference from the way they viewed God in the Old Testament. Some had a foreshadowing as Moses did get to see the glory of the Lord..which is His goodness! So, they knew God in a measure.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the people of Israel, its cornerstone, the work that everything points towards.
You talk as if the prophets, the faithful in the people of Israel did not know God.

If that was so the old testament is pointless and empty. But think about that concept. God worked through Israel for a reason, he had Moses write the pentateuch, psalms, the prophets etc for a reason. David, is a brother in Christ, though he only knew the shadow. Moses and Elijah knew Jesus, the mount of transfiguration.

Read the failure of the society of Isaiah and you will see righteousness and sin are the issues, and Gods judgement that will result. The same issues, though not as extreme are around today.

In many ways I am now growing in greater appreciation of the old testament today, because I understand better the depravity of man and what they are capable of as demonstrated by ISIS, Rwanda etc

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood.
Ezekiel 16:20-22

 

[PeterJens]

No you are missing the truth.

Back in the 70's I read a book about the suffering of christ. It blew my mind, humbled my heart and reduced me to tears.
There is nothing I can do compared to Jesus. His works are everything, His words like pure gold, His inspiration the best, His goals the noblest in all creation.

Once you see that looking at works becomes empty, they are a mere response to this glory. Any believer who is trying to be good will never achieve it, because it is only by dwelling, sharing and being in God that we can achieve anything.
For me this is sharing my heart with the Lord, praise and worship, being in the Spirit.

Ofcourse for those not taken into this place everything is out of place. The fact you cannot look at the law without condemnation means you are not dwelling close enough to Jesus, and your heart is condemning you. But you need to hear the word of the Lord, because if the words of the Lord bring condemnation, you need to get right with God. Repent of those deeds and actions, walk in the forgiveness of the cross. There is no better testimony of denied failure than this.

If you walk in the spirit, with love uppermost, the law does not condemn you, but testifies that you know Jesus.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When I am accused of heresy on sites like these it always makes me feel most assured I am following the truth

Point 1) faith to believe I not of yourselves I is the gift of God lest any man should boast eph2:9
And as you quoted, no one can come to Christ unless the father draws him

Point2). You have been drawn to Christ, given the faith to believe, been convicted of your sin, repentance I the natural consequence. I don't view repentance as a work.

Point3) the christian has a changed heart for God has changed it( ezekiel36:26&27 heb 10:16&17). They have been born again of the holy spirit. They in their heart want to obey God because of what God has done for them.

I WILL give you a new heart and put a new spirit I you. I WILL remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I WILL put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and keep my laws Ezekiel 36:26&27

It is all of what God WILL DO not what man will do.

Point 4) obedience comes from faith( rom1:5)
The christian must put no confidence in the flesh( themself) phil3:3

Apart from Christ you can do nothing john 15:5


What is the result of this?
God gets ALL the glory. That is what he wants and that is what those who truly love him in their hearts want him to have

Agree with everything, but if our will is aligned with GOD's, self-effort is not works of law.

 

[PeterJens]

They did not know God the way that He actually is.

Who are you talking about in "They"?
Moses, Elijah, Ezikiel, Isaiah, Jonah etc. or the ordinary Israelite?

 

[james57]

Back in the 70's I read a book about the suffering of christ. It blew my mind, humbled my heart and reduced me to tears.
There is nothing I can do compared to Jesus. His works are everything, His words like pure gold, His inspiration the best, His goals the noblest in all creation.

Once you see that looking at works becomes empty, they are a mere response to this glory. Any believer who is trying to be good will never achieve it, because it is only by dwelling, sharing and being in God that we can achieve anything.
For me this is sharing my heart with the Lord, praise and worship, being in the Spirit.

Ofcourse for those not taken into this place everything is out of place. The fact you cannot look at the law without condemnation means you are not dwelling close enough to Jesus, and your heart is condemning you. But you need to hear the word of the Lord, because if the words of the Lord bring condemnation, you need to get right with God. Repent of those deeds and actions, walk in the forgiveness of the cross. There is no better testimony of denied failure than this.

If you walk in the spirit, with love uppermost, the law does not condemn you, but testifies that you know Jesus.

No christian who understands grace looks at the law under the new covenant as condemnation for the penalty attached to it has gone for the believer.
It was the penalty that brought the condemnation.
The christian is not under a law of righteousness but under grace

 

[Hoffco]

The 10 commandments are still in force for the Christians to obey. Christ dictated laws for us thru the apostles, The are written on the new heart from God ;But they are also spelled out clearly in the New Testament.

 

[Grace777x70]

There was no law when Abraham "produced" an Ishmael with his own self-effort to fulfill the promises of God. He had good intentions but it was only when he could not do anything in the natural to produce ..when there could not be any self-effort..that he gave glory to God ..saying that God was able to fulfill what He said..then the son of the promise came by the Spirit of God..which produced the son.

Abraham did participate in it....he activate his will when God's life came into his body to fulfill the promise....he did have sex with Sarah when he was 100...something "good" happened to him and her...lol

Agree with everything, but if our will is aligned with GOD's, self-effort is not works of law.

 

[james57]

The 10 commandments are still in force for the Christians to obey. Christ dictated laws for us thru the apostles, The are written on the new heart from God ;But they are also spelled out clearly in the New Testament.

The christian has no righteousness before God of obedience to the ten commandments as I easily proved from rom ch7

I agree the law on stone got transferred onto the heart of the believer, though not a literal fourth commandment as written

 

[Grace777x70]

Some of the 10 commandments were a shadow of the real substance.

What about the Sabbath? We all know that Jesus is our Sabbath and that the real Sabbath is resting in Him...not a day..huge difference

The Christian under grace fulfills the "intent" of the law by faith in the finished work of Christ alone. A Christian could never even hear of the 10 commandments and all is fulfilled in Christ for us.

Is the law bad?..no....of course not..it is good...we are just not under it...

The 10 commandments are still in force for the Christians to obey. Christ dictated laws for us thru the apostles, The are written on the new heart from God ;But they are also spelled out clearly in the New Testament.

 

[Grace777x70]

You know..I have no clue what all the commandments are..lol..I bet that if we took a poll and asked people to write down the 10 commandments...most couldn't name them without looking them up...I believe the reason why is that the Holy Spirit will not help you! He is sent to reveal Jesus to us! We love Him and trust Him!

 

[Hoffco]

If one tries to hold on to the elementary things of the Old laws, they will fall from grace. God has destroyed the ceremonial,, the dietary laws, the feast days; We can not do them to day. They were fulfilled by Christ and done away with forever. But the moral laws are keep and enlarged for us today to keep. Study Gal.3:12 & 21 and Gal.4;9-11 "The law is not of faith" But,"the law" is Not against the promises of God" It is the "the weak and beggarly elements" that we must reject today. It is the Moral laws of God that we "establish by Faith". Rom3:31.

 

[Hoffco]

The 10 commandments are based upon the holiness of God and permanent, But the civil and ceremonial , dietary, laws were added by God to make the Jews hated by the Gentiles, Jesus destroyed those hateful laws that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. See, Eph.2:15 Jesus "abolished " them. The only thing which should separate Christians from the unsaved are the moral laws.!!