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Nov 22, 2015
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What separates us from the unsaved is our Faith in Jesus and in His finished work.

There are many good living buddists that are "moral"...there are many Muslims that live "moral" lives...but that does not make them righteous. Faith in Christ and in Him alone is what saves us. The life of God in us will produce good fruit but it is His fruit.


The 10 commandments are based upon the holiness of God and permanent, But the civil and ceremonial , dietary, laws were added by God to make the Jews hated by the Gentiles, Jesus destroyed those hateful laws that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. See, Eph.2:15 Jesus "abolished " them. The only thing which should separate Christians from the unsaved are the moral laws.!!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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There was no law when Abraham "produced" an Ishmael with his own self-effort to fulfill the promises of God. He had good intentions but it was only when he could not do anything in the natural to produce ..when there could not be any self-effort..that he gave glory to God ..saying that God was able to fulfill what He said..then the son of the promise came by the Spirit of God..which produced the son.

Abraham did participate in it....he activate his will when God's life came into his body to fulfill the promise....he did have sex with Sarah when he was 100...something "good" happened to him and her...lol
Obviously Abraham's will wasn't aligned with GOD's in the matter of Ismael. Yet his effort to conceive Ishmael was no different than that to conceive Isaac.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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The 10 commandments are based upon the holiness of God and permanent, But the civil and ceremonial , dietary, laws were added by God to make the Jews hated by the Gentiles, Jesus destroyed those hateful laws that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. See, Eph.2:15 Jesus "abolished " them. The only thing which should separate Christians from the unsaved are the moral laws.!!
This is ridiculous. You dishonor GOD by calling any part of his law hateful.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Abraham's will was perfectly in line with God....he just tried to do it through self-effort. Trying to accomplish the works of God by our own self-effort creates "Ishmaels" in our lives!

Yes..same effort was used with both...but only none was of God ... from God's life that 'changed" his body to be able to have sex with Sarah..changed her too!


Obviously Abraham's will wasn't aligned with GOD's in the matter of Ismael. Yet his effort to conceive Ishmael was no different than that to conceive Isaac.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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oppss..sorry..I mean to write."only one was of God"....kinda changes the meaning..lol

Abraham's will was perfectly in line with God....he just tried to do it through self-effort. Trying to accomplish the works of God by our own self-effort creates "Ishmaels" in our lives!

Yes..same effort was used with both...but only none was of God ... from God's life that 'changed" his body to be able to have sex with Sarah..changed her too!
 
Sep 4, 2012
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Abraham's will was perfectly in line with God....he just tried to do it through self-effort. Trying to accomplish the works of God by our own self-effort creates "Ishmaels" in our lives!

Yes..same effort was used with both...but only none was of God ... from God's life that 'changed" his body to be able to have sex with Sarah..changed her too!
This is a ridiculous statement. He had faith in GOD's promises, but he was imperfect as all men are. Only Christ's will was perfectly in line with GOD's. That's why he is the righteousness of GOD, and we are not.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
What Abraham did ,have two wives, was oked by God in the Old Testament. Jacob had two wives and two hand maids, David had over 600 wives and Solomon. Just keep Rom.11:22 in mind, God does not always play with the same rules with us, or in the same ways with us all. God bends His own rules ,when He wants to: look at Hosai, who was told to marry a harlot. God can changes His rules anytime He wants too.!!
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I find it interesting to think the people bought out of Egypt were regarded as righteous. The sacrificial lamb spared the first born sons but as a shadow of Christ also redeemed them, so the angel of death passed over.

Jesus said something that hit home to me yesterday. Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us.
Other translations talk about debt. So sin is getting into debt with someone on a moral scale.

But think about this principle. This kind of debt is about action. Jesus point out the debt is the fruit of intent, so you need to work on the intent part, or changing your heart attitude to everyone. We know we cannot change our heart attitude unless Jesus and seeing His love through the cross transforms us.

I remember feeling angry at my family over incidents. I was hurt, found interaction difficult. When I brought it all to the Lord and forgave, it all changed. I could again love them and see the way forward. It was a choice, but it was more like bowing the knee and letting the Lords love work through me, but it was still a choice.

But I do not hear this kind of situation from you guys. Is this not your experience? I can only share of what I know and experience. Maybe I am wrong and I should be continually angry and stay resentful. I cannot say I would count the sin in these situations, but rather knowing what it is to walk in Jesus's love and apply it.

Israel also reminds me of something else. I am still in the family, though I get things wrong, I am not thrown out as if I never was. But continual rebellion, walking in evil and disobedience will bring judgement. But it seems christians often feel God has changed. What we do not pay enough attention to is how Jesus gives us access to communion and regaining fellowship with the Lord, which used only to be possible through animal sacrifice and going to the temple.

But I think many do not compare these two realities very often.
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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I said that Abraham's will was in line with what God said,...you shall have a son...he tried in his own self-effort..failed..then God took over..



I agree 100% that Christ's will was perfectly in line with God's. That has nothing to do with Abraham and what he did.

There is a mountain called Mt.Sinai...the sun comes up in the east...my wife is a woman....these are all true statements but have nothing to do with Abraham ...

This is a ridiculous statement. He had faith in GOD's promises, but he was imperfect as all men are. Only Christ's will was perfectly in line with GOD's. That's why he is the righteousness of GOD, and we are not.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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LOL..it certainly looks like it..doesn't it...and yet He says.."I am God..I change not!"

Looks like we have to rightly divide the word! Thank God for the Holy Spirit in us!

What Abraham did ,have two wives, was oked by God in the Old Testament. Jacob had two wives and two hand maids, David had over 600 wives and Solomon. Just keep Rom.11:22 in mind, God does not always play with the same rules with us, or in the same ways with us all. God bends His own rules ,when He wants to: look at Hosai, who was told to marry a harlot. God can changes His rules anytime He wants too.!!
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Kenneth , when you obey all of Christs literal commands then tell others they should. Lead by example.
For if you do not do yourself what you insist everyone else must do to be obedient and follow after the holy spirit you bring great trouble on yourself

For the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you

That is one of Jesus teachings
You would first need to discern between when one is sharing the Truth from God's word from judging.

For it is not judging others when one is repeating exactly what Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul said.

Walking in LOVE is key to our faith in Christ.

Love fulfills all, and love also does not always say things we like to hear. For tough love is also taught in the Word of God.

It is the itching ears false doctrines that teach we can live however we want, and the Moral code doesn't apply.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Lot's of good stuff Peter!

I believe God has not changed at all and never will. Our perception of Him will change. Our belief and understanding of Him will change.

We do not lose "fellowship" with God...we lose the "sense" of fellowship because sin is deceitful..it cons us...alienates us in our minds. God never withdrew fellowship from Adam and Eve when they sinned. They removed themselves. The guilt and condemnation caused them to hide from God. He was still coming to visit with them.He knew what they did.

"WHo told you that you were naked? There is a voice that speaks to us a voice called condemnation. This is the great news about romans 8:1 "there is now therefore no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus! "...knowing this...we run to our Father if we sin..not hide!

Jesus is the complete revelation of the Father.

God only relates to us now through Jesus!

I find it interesting to think the people bought out of Egypt were regarded as righteous. The sacrificial lamb spared the first born sons but as a shadow of Christ also redeemed them, so the angel of death passed over.

Jesus said something that hit home to me yesterday. Forgive us our sins and we forgive those who sin against us.
Other translations talk about debt. So sin is getting into debt with someone on a moral scale.

But think about this principle. This kind of debt is about action. Jesus point out the debt is the fruit of intent, so you need to work on the intent part, or changing your heart attitude to everyone. We know we cannot change our heart attitude unless Jesus and seeing His love through the cross transforms us.

I remember feeling angry at my family over incidents. I was hurt, found interaction difficult. When I brought it all to the Lord and forgave, it all changed. I could again love them and see the way forward. It was a choice, but it was more like bowing the knee and letting the Lords love work through me, but it was still a choice.

But I do not hear this kind of situation from you guys. Is this not your experience? I can only share of what I know and experience. Maybe I am wrong and I should be continually angry and stay resentful. I cannot say I would count the sin in these situations, but rather knowing what it is to walk in Jesus's love and apply it.

Israel also reminds me of something else. I am still in the family, though I get things wrong, I am not thrown out as if I never was. But continual rebellion, walking in evil and disobedience will bring judgement. But it seems christians often feel God has changed. What we do not pay enough attention to is how Jesus gives us access to communion and regaining fellowship with the Lord, which used only to be possible through animal sacrifice and going to the temple.

But I think many do not compare these two realities very often.
 
Oct 21, 2015
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You would first need to discern between when one is sharing the Truth from God's word from judging.

For it is not judging others when one is repeating exactly what Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul said.

Walking in LOVE is key to our faith in Christ.

Love fulfills all, and love also does not always say things we like to hear. For tough love is also taught in the Word of God.

It is the itching ears false doctrines that teach we can live however we want, and the Moral code doesn't apply.
Perhaps then, for clarification when you stress we must obey Christ's literal commands to show our love for him and as proof we are following after the Holy Spirit, you might add to that you personally do not try and obey all of Christ's literal commands.
You wouldn't want to unintentionally crush anyone with guilt would you, by them misguidedly believing they are not attaining to a standard you do, and therefore feeling much guilt because of this
It wouldn't be loving others to let that happen would it
 
K

KennethC

Guest
What separates us from the unsaved is our Faith in Jesus and in His finished work.

There are many good living buddists that are "moral"...there are many Muslims that live "moral" lives...but that does not make them righteous. Faith in Christ and in Him alone is what saves us. The life of God in us will produce good fruit but it is His fruit.
This is true what you say about some unbelievers do live good moral lives, but without belief in God and faith in Jesus that life is still of self-righteousness.

Only when done in faith of Jesus does it account to being His fruit produced in our lives.

Remember the rich young ruler thought he kept the commandments since his youth. Lord Jesus showed him he didn't because his love and trust was on his possession's not God.
 

JFSurvivor

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2015
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I dunno if my thing posted so I'lll repeat what I said. You do works BECAUSE YOU have faith. You drive a car because 1) you have to go somewhere and 2) you have faith that it won't break down or blow up
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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113
You would first need to discern between when one is sharing the Truth from God's word from judging.

For it is not judging others when one is repeating exactly what Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul said.

Walking in LOVE is key to our faith in Christ.

Love fulfills all, and love also does not always say things we like to hear. For tough love is also taught in the Word of God.

It is the itching ears false doctrines that teach we can live however we want, and the Moral code doesn't apply.
I translated what you said for others. Let me know if its wrong.

You would first need to discern between when one is sharing the Truth of keeping the 10 commandments (what I call the MORAL LAW) from God's word from judging.

For it is not judging others when one is repeating exactly what Lord Jesus and the Apostle Paul said about keeping the 10 commandments.

Walking in LOVE, i.e., following the 10 commandments, is key to our faith in Christ.

Love fulfills all, and love also does not always say things we like to hear, like how we are supposed to walk after the 10 commandments. For tough love is also taught in the Word of God.

It is the itching ears false doctrines that teach we can live however we want, and the Moral code, i.e, the 10 commandments, doesn't apply.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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This is true what you say about some unbelievers do live good moral lives, but without belief in God and faith in Jesus that life is still of self-righteousness.

Only when done in faith of Jesus does it account to being His fruit produced in our lives.

Remember the rich young ruler thought he kept the commandments since his youth. Lord Jesus showed him he didn't because his love and trust was on his possession's not God.
More translation. Let me know if it's wrong.

This is true what you say about some unbelievers do live good moral lives, but without belief in God and faith in Jesus to follow the 10 commandments that life is still of self-righteousness.

Only when done in faith of Jesus does it account to being His fruit of keeping the 10 commandments produced in our lives.

Remember the rich young ruler thought he kept the commandments since his youth. Lord Jesus showed him he didn't because his love and trust was on his possession's not God.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Perhaps then, for clarification when you stress we must obey Christ's literal commands to show our love for him and as proof we are following after the Holy Spirit, you might add to that you personally do not try and obey all of Christ's literal commands.
You wouldn't want to unintentionally crush anyone with guilt would you, by them misguidedly believing they are not attaining to a standard you do, and therefore feeling much guilt because of this
It wouldn't be loving others to let that happen would it
Should we sit back and let people continue to live dangerously by living sinful lifestyles or following false teaching ???

Or would it be more to expose those things and lead them to the Truth ???

By the word of God it shows it is more loving to share the Truth, and lead others and help them to walk the proper path of His sound doctrine.

We must remember any variance from what Jesus taught makes what is taught a false doctrine.

Apostle Paul warns about following doctrines that do not align with what Jesus taught.

We all will stumble at times, I admit that, but stumbling does not allow continuous disobediance to Jesus teachings.

Galatians 5:19
(Do not use liberty in Christ for an opportunity of the flesh / to sin)
 
Oct 21, 2015
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Should we sit back and let people continue to live dangerously by living sinful lifestyles or following false teaching ???

Or would it be more to expose those things and lead them to the Truth ???

By the word of God it shows it is more loving to share the Truth, and lead others and help them to walk the proper path of His sound doctrine.

We must remember any variance from what Jesus taught makes what is taught a false doctrine.

Apostle Paul warns about following doctrines that do not align with what Jesus taught.

We all will stumble at times, I admit that, but stumbling does not allow continuous disobediance to Jesus teachings.

Galatians 5:19
(Do not use liberty in Christ for an opportunity of the flesh / to sin)
But Kenneth, would it be good to preach a standard you don't even try to aspire to?

Do you not see, unless you clarify you yourself do not try and attain the standard you are preaching to others, people will become crushed if they believe you? They will mistakenly imagine you are attaining to a standard you are not attaining to, and they will feel guilty then.

Is that being guided by love for others, to allow that to happen?