"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[GaryA]

The only problem is that this totally misrepresents what is actually in the Bible.

No, it does not.

Tell me - how many ways can the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way'?

I will tell you:

~ rapture of the saints

~ death of the saints (If all/most saints were to die, the "effective power" of the Holy Spirit on the earth would be greatly diminished.)

If the Holy Spirit is 'taken out of the way' - so that there is no Holy Spirit on the earth [after that]:

~ How can anyone be saved without the Holy Spirit?

~ The moment the first person is saved [after that] - is the Holy Spirit not again 'present' on the earth?

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Assuming that the 'souls' in this verse were a great many - warriors for Christ, having great faith - who chose death rather than to worship the beast - would not the Holy Spirit be "back in power" upon the earth?

 

[cv5]

Nah, not confusing at all. And guess what? Sometimes, the Day of the Lord is even referred to as simply “That Day.” View attachment 253839

Now here’s a thought to ponder…. Do Sundays (the first day of the week) sneak up on you like a thief in the night? Nope. View attachment 253837

You might be wasting your breath I am afraid. I have already posted and reposted probably every "in that day" & "that day" passage (and expounded upon the prophetic implications thereof) many many times on these kinds of threads.

The response? Crickets.

To be expected as rightly declaring the Word will always silence the critics.

1Sa 2:9
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

The "kick Israel to the curb" crowd will be satisfied with nothing less it seems. Sick.

 

[GaryA]

You and @GaryA are way way out of line here.

I am not. And, if I am, so are you - because, we both believe that the Second Coming of Christ is future.

 

[Mem]

Take a look out of your window. Have the times of the gentiles ended? No.

The specific term "times of the gentiles" refers to the poly-metal image of Dan 2.
The final destruction of the gentile kingdoms (end time kingdoms.......10 toes = 10 horns = 10 kings = 10 kingdoms) only occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus in glory and CONQUEST (just as Joshua ***in type*** did to Canaan) to do war against them, defeat them, AND SAVE THE PEOPLE HE FOREKNEW.......ISRAEL.

This in fulfillment of COUNTLESS prophecies (including those by Moses), critical covenants, boilerplate promises, and the statements of Jesus Himself. Statements such as these:

Luke 13:35
“See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’

Matt 23:39
“for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’

So who is the "you"/"your HOUSE"? It is the HOUSE of Jacob, the nation ISRAEL.

My question was concerning Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles, until the time of the gentile is fulfilled. How can one tell that the time of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled? I figure your answer uses the rapture as an indicator, but that assumes that what is taken out of the way is fact the church, and I do not subscribe to that assumption but rather that the beast is it that is taken out of the way, which would not be the most glaring evidence, apart from the brightness of His coming of course, but evidence nonetheless that Christ has returned.
You can try to set me straight "infinitum" as you put it but, I've read it before, infinitum, and I'm good where I am.

 

[GaryA]

You might be wasting your breath I am afraid. I have already posted and reposted probably every "in that day" & "that day" passage (and expounded upon the prophetic implications thereof) many many times on these kinds of threads.

The response? Crickets.

Every verse listed in the chart on this web page is referring to or is connected with [the] 'Day of the Lord':

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

 

[cv5]

Tell me - how many ways can the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way'?

As usual you are ensnared in a thicket of misapprehension and display your usual rubbish hermeneutics.

Lam 2:3
He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

The passage in question does NOT mean the "total removal" of the Holy Ghost (which is impossible by any measure). What it ACTUALLY means this that He will "draw back" from His role in preserving/protecting the earth from the revealing and rise to power of the Lawless One. This to fulfill His righteous omniscient will and fulfill prophecy.

"Out of the way" does NOT mean some kind of complete and total evacuation.

2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:7
for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder -- till he may be out of the way,
2Th 2:8
and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence,

 

[cv5]

My question was concerning Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles, until the time of the gentile is fulfilled. How can one tell that the time of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled? I figure your answer uses the rapture as an indicator, but that assumes that what is taken out of the way is fact the church, and I do not subscribe to that assumption but rather that the beast is it that is taken out of the way, which would not be the most glaring evidence, apart from the brightness of His coming of course, but evidence nonetheless that Christ has returned.
You can try to set me straight "infinitum" as you put it but, I've read it before, infinitum, and I'm good where I am.

First of all, the re-founding of the nation Israel on May 14, 1948 (and Jerusalem on June 7, 1967) does NOT constitute the end of the "times of the gentiles". Yes, it is tempting to see it that way (and at one time I was leaning that way myself). But no, this is definitely not the case.

The gentile kingdoms (who are presently quite literally headed by demons BTW) persist until the SC. This could not be more obvious as these very same kingdoms go to war with firstly the saints and then Jesus at His Coming. Should be obvious that they are still wielding power until the bitter end.

What May 14, 1948 (and June 7, 1967) DOES fulfill in terms of prophecy is the "seven more times" judgement of Leviticus 26.
That judgement is now over! Exactly 2520 years to the very day in both cases (the nation AND Jerusalem).

Good reference material here......

http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

 

[GaryA]

I understand the generally accepted interpretation of the times of distinctions between Israel and the Church are going by a supposed timeframe of 'the times of the Gentiles' but, according to Luke 21, regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, it seems to me that v. 24, "They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." has happened and so "the day of the Gentiles are indeed fulfilled. For me, the question that would correctly provide insight into the time distinctions is, "Are 'the Gentiles,' there, referring to the time of the Church or is it of a more generally designation such as 'the heathen nations'?"

Please read the discussion on the following web page and look carefully for the parts of the discussion that involve 'Times of the Jews' and 'Times of the Gentiles' :

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I think it should probably help answer your question.

 

[GaryA]

Really? Regardless of your views, I shall respond by saying that my SCRIPTURAL references set forth trump your OPINIONS.

Whatever... SMH

 

[cv5]

My question was concerning Jerusalem being trodden down by the gentiles, until the time of the gentile is fulfilled. How can one tell that the time of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled? I figure your answer uses the rapture as an indicator, but that assumes that what is taken out of the way is fact the church, and I do not subscribe to that assumption but rather that the beast is it that is taken out of the way, which would not be the most glaring evidence, apart from the brightness of His coming of course, but evidence nonetheless that Christ has returned.
You can try to set me straight "infinitum" as you put it but, I've read it before, infinitum, and I'm good where I am.

The "times of the gentiles" began at the captivity of the nation Israel @ 586BC. Daniel's ch 2 image/succession of kingdoms began there with Babylon/Nebuchadnezzar.

The "image" of Daniel 2 is destroyed by the "stone cut out without hands" which is Christ Jesus. When? During the LAST "aggregate kingdom", the tribulation kingdom of the ten toes (ten kings ten kingdoms).

We need not be concerned about any of this, as we will have been raptured beforehand enjoying our "SEVEN".....seven year (equivalent to the Jewish wedding "SEVEN" day) honeymoon with our Bridegroom in the Fathers house in heaven.

Dan 2:34
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[GaryA]

As usual you are ensnared in a thicket of misapprehension and display your usual rubbish hermeneutics.

I cannot wait to see how @Nehemiah6 corrects your post #246...

The dispensationalist pre-trib rapture view clearly demands-and-requires that - until the Holy Spirit is [totally] removed from the earth - the antichrist cannot come into power, etc.

This is the whole premise for saying that the 'Church' must be raptured first before the antichrist can rule...

 

[selahsays]

I cannot wait to see how @Nehemiah6 corrects your post #246...

The dispensationalist pre-trib rapture view clearly demands-and-requires that - until the Holy Spirit is [totally] removed from the earth - the antichrist cannot come into power, etc.

This is the whole premise for saying that the 'Church' must be raptured first before the antichrist can rule...

I don’t understand why folks are saying that the Holy Spirit will be totally removed from the earth. Where’s it written? This is the time that the elect shine alongside the two witnesses. Please provide scripture that says this. Thx.

 

[Wordwalker]

Israel according to the flesh is God's firstborn son, spiritual Israel, the church, is the Bride. Both have promises made to them. To the one promises related to the earth, the land. To the other promises relating to heaven.

Here we see it is the woman, the Spouse who must endure the birth pangs The great tribulation. The church is impregnated and must give birth to the new creation, Israel according to the flesh must be converted.

I’m certain to be accused of heresy for this, but here goes…..

Believers are the BODY of Christ who join in marriage to the BRIDE of Christ, Israel.

God promised to punish her, redeem her, and marry her (as a remnant, 144,000).

The scripture absolutely says this…
I just wanted to offer that, since I’ll quite likely be silenced by people who have phobias against different viewpoints…

 

[GaryA]

I don’t understand why folks are saying that the Holy Spirit will be totally removed from the earth. Where’s it written?

I am not saying that; rather, I am trying to make a point about what [certain] other folks say.

 

[cv5]

I cannot wait to see how @Nehemiah6 corrects your post #246...

The dispensationalist pre-trib rapture view clearly demands-and-requires that - until the Holy Spirit is [totally] removed from the earth - the antichrist cannot come into power, etc.

This is the whole premise for saying that the 'Church' must be raptured first before the antichrist can rule...

Wong again Gary. Please....try harder.

 

[Wordwalker]

I don’t understand why folks are saying that the Holy Spirit will be totally removed from the earth. Where’s it written? This is the time that the elect shine alongside the two witnesses. Please provide scripture that says this. Thx.

I’ve heard this in the past at churches I no longer associate with, and a lot on radio programs- (also past-tense).
They don’t know scripture where it identifies the Holy Spirit as not merely the one who gave life to the planet, but that He IS that Life. This planet was dead without Him and will be dead without Him. He made this His home and infused Himself within the atmosphere and— I don’t see Him leaving without a fight… oh wait, there will be!

 

[Nehemiah6]

Tell me - how many ways can the Holy Spirit be 'taken out of the way'?

What a ridiculous response. Did you read what was posted? As expected YOU REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH. Goodbye.

 

[GaryA]

What a ridiculous response. Did you read what was posted? As expected YOU REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH. Goodbye.

Hello. As expected, you refuse to consider anything outside of the firmly-implanted 'play-your-tape' scenario that you have been taught.

It is not ridiculous. And, it is intended to get you to think about other perfectly valid possibilities that you really need to consider.

 

[cv5]

Wong again Gary. Please....try harder.

Sorry about the spelling error @GaryA

"Wong again Gawy. Pwease twy hawder."

Sound better?

 

[GaryA]

Sorry about the spelling error @GaryA

"Wong again Gawy. Pwease twy hawder."

Sound better?

No - you need to try harder.









However - that was a funny response - I will give you that...