I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

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Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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That’s a bunch of crap. You in your sinfulness have the ability and wherewithal to be merciful and gracious without killing someone you love, and so can God who is the essence of love.
Man's dilemma is "Holy God <> Sinful man"
That is the starting place.
If you start some place else, you miss the target completely.

The next dynamic is the requirement/payment for sin....which is,innocent blood.

God is the holder of the rule book.
The horrors of sin belong to man....not God.

God came to fix it and he did.
God made a way for us to win.

But God does not honor your made up rules or sense of fairness.
That is backwards and a fool's paradise.
 

Pilgrimshope

Active member
Sep 2, 2020
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Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate c
Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️
Jesus death is an “ atonement” to fulfill Gods word upon man.

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭

it is that way from the beginning “ the fruit is not for you if you eat it you will die “ that’s life of man believes and abides but death if man transgresses.

sin is condemned to death forever so any who sin are condemned forever . How do you save someone who is surely condemned by the command “ to sin is to surely die “ if that must be true because Gods word is true?

God has provided a propitiation to fulfill that for each believer “ Jesus died for your sins “ so we are freed from the condemnation of our past sins and can then repent and follow the lords way.

the propitiation or atonement is what God provided to fulfill his immutable word. Man must die for sin so God provided the sin of man to die for all sin , and therefore be the judge of all having bought them with his suffering and precious blood.

what we miss is his resurrection also benefits us as he is a living advocate still even as he is the propitiation for sins

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he is still Merciful , still advocating and interceding . He lives . He died for our sins and lives to Intercede on our behalf and lead us into righteousness if we believe
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
1,345
762
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The crucifixion wasn't to get a message across...

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. (Hebrews 2:14-15)
Being Omniscient, why didn't God destroy that one after he led and lost the rebellion against God in Heaven?

Rather than let him fall to earth and reign here as its lord. And then, allow him to return to heaven to confer with God from time to time.

I can see the point of concern in the OP. God sent himself to die so as to change the human dilemma that he predestined himself. (in the case of Calvinists) and actually all others. Having let all this occur, why didn't God forgive the first sin?
 
Apr 2, 2020
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Being Omniscient, why didn't God destroy that one after he led and lost the rebellion against God in Heaven?

Rather than let him fall to earth and reign here as its lord. And then, allow him to return to heaven to confer with God from time to time.

I can see the point of concern in the OP. God sent himself to die so as to change the human dilemma that he predestined himself. (in the case of Calvinists) and actually all others. Having let all this occur, why didn't God forgive the first sin?
While the full answer is out of reach and we can only speculate as far as God's reasons and the wisdom in it, the question seems somewhat improper to me because its theology of atonement. Forgiveness precedes the cross, which we can see when Jesus tells the paralytic his sins are forgiven. The idea of the cross as God's price for forgiveness doesn't make much sense if you press it. So the question is what was accomplished on the cross, if forgiveness is a separate issue?

That is quite a lot of different things, the fullness we don't know. One thing the cross does is reveal the fullness of sin (romans 7) as it took hold of the law, giving us a consciousness of our depravity. It also serves to purify and heal us in some manner, removing the effects of sin.

It's easy to go off the cliff and propose that God is beholden to some natural law that the cross then allows Him to evade, which is essentially what penal substitution forwards. Yet we know that God chose the cross for His purposes.

My own speculation for the cross is to link it with one of God's questions to Job to establish whether Job is a just man or not, namely "would you condemn me to justify yourself?" (Job 40:8, NASB) In some sense the cross can make us realize that we would do so, and what we do with that information transforms us.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
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While the full answer is out of reach and we can only speculate as far as God's reasons and the wisdom in it, the question seems somewhat improper to me because its theology of atonement. Forgiveness precedes the cross, which we can see when Jesus tells the paralytic his sins are forgiven. The idea of the cross as God's price for forgiveness doesn't make much sense if you press it. So the question is what was accomplished on the cross, if forgiveness is a separate issue?

That is quite a lot of different things, the fullness we don't know. One thing the cross does is reveal the fullness of sin (romans 7) as it took hold of the law, giving us a consciousness of our depravity. It also serves to purify and heal us in some manner, removing the effects of sin.

It's easy to go off the cliff and propose that God is beholden to some natural law that the cross then allows Him to evade, which is essentially what penal substitution forwards. Yet we know that God chose the cross for His purposes.

My own speculation for the cross is to link it with one of God's questions to Job to establish whether Job is a just man or not, namely "would you condemn me to justify yourself?" (Job 40:8, NASB) In some sense the cross can make us realize that we would do so, and what we do with that information transforms us.
The first law of God, the first commandment also, was given in the garden.
When God forgave people before the cross, why was the cross necessary for God to crucify himself upon in order to render his grace to the whole world? When Jesus was God.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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The first law of God, the first commandment also, was given in the garden.
When God forgave people before the cross, why was the cross necessary for God to crucify himself upon in order to render his grace to the whole world? When Jesus was God.
Ultimately that's a question only God can answer, and the larger question is whether or not we will trust His judgment when we recognize that some questions are beyond us.

In some manner the cross brings all of the purposes of God in humanity to a head. Through the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the righteous are revealed, restored, and transformed. In the cross we find the wisdom of God in subdueing evil through submitting to it. Both holding men accountable while allowing for mercy.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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The first law of God, the first commandment also, was given in the garden.
When God forgave people before the cross, why was the cross necessary for God to crucify himself upon in order to render his grace to the whole world? When Jesus was God.
A suggestion the first garden . The garden of Eden. Eden a word meaning a "delightful place"

The first part of the three day and night promised demonstration ( Isaiah 53) also began in another Garden. The garden of Gethsemane. A word meaning "a place of spiritual sufferings" . The witness of God .The father not seen and Son seen working together as one God. .

Matthew 26:36-46 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. ...

They could not pray or watch with Jesus. The father having put the disciples asleep to show they were not part of the witness of God . Three time Jesus tried to awaken them to aid in the work of prayer . After the third time they were awoken and left for the second part. . the denonstration Golgotha.

The second part using the cross was more the witness of man. . the place of a skull a place of the dead or bald , a place of shame . The Holy Spirit uses bald as a sign of shame. Suffering and shame he bore the wrath as the Father strengthened Jesus to finish the work

John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

The third part. The place of faith the unseen work of both . A picture of the Ark of the covenant hiding the three secret things inside . Guarded with a seraphim on the outside like the angel guarding the garden of Eden with a flashed two edged sword
 
Aug 27, 2020
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We have all sinned. Therefore the cost for our sin is 1) bodily death, and 2) spiritual death.

Jesus came down to earth and lived a sinless life. Therefore he deserved neither bodily or spiritual death. However, Jesus died a bodily death in exchange so that we will receive spiritual life / avoid spiritual death.

Jesus died (bodily) so we might live (spiritually)

The whole bible is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about the gift of spiritual life.

When Jesus says, "I am the bread of life" and "I am the living waters", he is saying he is our spiritual food and drink. He alone provides for our our spiritual sustenance. Nothing else will sustain us spiritually.

Jesus paid the price for our spiritual death at the cross. Does this make any sense?
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, they had decided they were going to take care of things themselves. I effect they were saying they don't need God, This was when death came into the world; both physical and eternal. That is the "wages of sin". This sin debt is so huge that we can never pay it off. This is not just a matter of "Ok God I get the picture I won't sin any more." It does not matter even if we never sinned once in our lives, the fact that we were born in sin. (Psalm 51:5 (ESV) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.) And if we are born in sin we are sin and are an enemy of God. As an enemy of God we cannot come to god but rather reject God. So, God had no choice but to send his Son who came to us in the form of a little baby. Talking of Psalm 51:5, we, being born in sin, makes us unclean and an enemy of God. But the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. When Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us all of our sin, past present and future have been forgiven. The slate has been swept clean. All our sins have been removed from us through the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross. We no longer have to suffer death because Jesus, our advocate, suffered and died in our stead.
 

Bugs

New member
Aug 12, 2020
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I’ve only been reading @Bugs.
I seem to have really gotten to you so I am trying to figure this out. You act like my first post was not an answer to the question of why Christ had to die.

You were offended that He took our place on the cross which we deserve for our transgression. Or maybe it is that our sins deserve being crucified that makes you upset.

You keep saying that if you were God you would just ignore the sins of the world saying it is no big deal, am I right?

That would put you(as God) in the presence of sinners that have never been redeemed. That would bring you down yo our level. Not the perfectly just and holy being God is, who instead is bringing us up to His righteousness.

Can you not trust that God's understanding of justification is higher than our own understanding? When you question the need for Christ to have been killed on the cross in order to save us, it sounds like you are suggesting that God did it all wrong and He should have asked you what should have been done instead.
 

Bugs

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Aug 12, 2020
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Is it the need to shed blood that bothers you? Millions upon millions of animals were sacrificed to atone for each sin of Israel, that is how deadly sin is. Nothing else can cover sin. Jesus though was was the perfect sacrifice that no animal could be.

He did this four our sake, to make us holy and give us eternal life. That is why we worship Him. Not because it is our religion but because He is our savior.
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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I seem to have really gotten to you so I am trying to figure this out. You act like my first post was not an answer to the question of why Christ had to die.

You were offended that He took our place on the cross which we deserve for our transgression. Or maybe it is that our sins deserve being crucified that makes you upset.

You keep saying that if you were God you would just ignore the sins of the world saying it is no big deal, am I right?

That would put you(as God) in the presence of sinners that have never been redeemed. That would bring you down yo our level. Not the perfectly just and holy being God is, who instead is bringing us up to His righteousness.

Can you not trust that God's understanding of justification is higher than our own understanding? When you question the need for Christ to have been killed on the cross in order to save us, it sounds like you are suggesting that God did it all wrong and He should have asked you what should have been done instead.
There’s so much wrong with your post I’m not sure if I should even bother continuing to correspond with you.

You incorrectly assume I’m angry with God; you incorrectly assume you’ve gotten to me; you really incorrectly assume I’m offended Christ took our place on the cross, and you top it all off by libelously stating I said, “if I were God” which I never said, never would say, think or contemplate.

Through it all you have not answered the OP’s basic, fundamental question as to why Jesus had to die. It was merely God’s decision.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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No one answered my question about the LIFE of Jresus ... about what we Preached to US. My question is simple and I hope someone can give me a straighforward answer:

JESUS PREACHED FOR OVER THREE YEARS ... WHEN WE PREACH WE ARE TRYING TO EFFECT CHANGE, NO? IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN THE QUESTION I S THIS:

ARE WE TO FOLLOW JESUS AND WHAT HE SAID .. PREACHED WE ARE TO DO ... THERE IS TOO MUCH TO COPY HERE SO I WILL KEEP IT SIMPLE:

JESUS SAID THESE ARE THE GREATEST COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH ALL THE REST HANG:
1) LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOU MIND, HEART, SOUL
2) LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF

RE #2: HE TOLD US HOW WE ARE TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS, HELP THE POOR, GIVE, ACCEPT, LOVE, ETC.

i RECEIVED NO ANSWER TO WHAT I THINK IS AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION. DID JESUS MEAN FOR US TO OBEY HIM AND DO COMMANDMENTS ONE AND TWO . AND WHY HAVE I BEEN TOLD THAT HIS PREACHING WAS NOT FOR US, WHOM HE TOLD ARE TO DO IT?

I HONESTLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. I KNOW WE ARE NOT WORKS BASED, BUT HIS COMMAND SAYS TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AND HE GOES INTO GREAT DETAIL ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT. WHY DO WE IGNORE IT? I WAS SIMPLY MOVED ON TO JESUS DEATH AND HIS ATONEMENT. ALL GOOD AND WELL.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMANDMENT ... THE SECOND ONE .... LOVE THY NEIGHBOR ... PUT IT INTO ACTION. DO IT. SH9OW KINDNESS, HELP THE POOR, REACH OUT.

IS THERE ANYONE WHO THINKS WE OUGHT TO OBEY JESUS? OR DO WE IGNORE HIM?
IF WE IGNORE HIS COMMANDMENT TO DO THIS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY, THEN MAYBE WE DONT GO THROUGH THE NARROW GATE.



Some of the main themes that Jesus taught, which Christians later embraced, include:
  • Love God.
  • Love your neighbor as yourself.
  • Forgive others who have wronged you.
  • Love your enemies.
  • Ask God for forgiveness of your sins.
  • Jesus is the Messiah and was given the authority to forgive others.
  • Repentance of sins is essential.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
15,833
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Is it the need to shed blood that bothers you? Millions upon millions of animals were sacrificed to atone for each sin of Israel, that is how deadly sin is. Nothing else can cover sin. Jesus though was was the perfect sacrifice that no animal could be.

He did this four our sake, to make us holy and give us eternal life. That is why we worship Him. Not because it is our religion but because He is our savior.

Its our religion (belief) because He is our savor. Cause and effect, let there be and it was good.

We worship him because he gives us the power to believe or have faith. Previously having None. Not a little Nothing..

I dont think Duskey said work out your own salvation by ones own self.. . self edifying . (I did it)

Without the power of God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure we can do nothing.... Either he does all the work from the beginning to the end or we remain dead in our trespasses and sins .

Pride always comes before the fall.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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[addressing Post #153]


^ I believe I addressed that somewhat in Post #152 (last Friday, in a different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/too-late-after-our-death.194282/post-4368099 (where I pointed out Romans 7:1-4 and Romans 8:3-4, read those carefully at the link to that post)


... and I would add to that, the following verse (note the phrase "the faith OF Jesus Christ [/ OF Christ]")

Galatians 2:16 -

"having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh."


and


1 Peter 1:13-16 -

"13 Therefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober-minded, set your hope fully upon the grace being brought to you in revelation of [<--no definite article, here!] Jesus Christ, 14 as children of obedience, not being conformed to the passions in your former ignorance. 15 But as the One having called you is holy, be [imperative PASSIVE] holy yourselves also in all your conduct, 16 because it has been written: “You shall be holy [future indicative middle voice], because I am holy.”"



____________

Jesus IS the gate. Many people want to think their good works are it, instead, and do not want to consider that it is Jesus Himself:

He said, "I am the way..." (John 14:6) and He said, "I am the door..." (John 10:9)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ EDIT (timed out) : should read... "in all your conduct " (meant to italicize, not underline, as I had it ^ )


P.S. no one is suggesting we ignore Jesus ;)
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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There’s so much wrong with your post I’m not sure if I should even bother continuing to correspond with you.

You incorrectly assume I’m angry with God; you incorrectly assume you’ve gotten to me; you really incorrectly assume I’m offended Christ took our place on the cross, and you top it all off by libelously stating I said, “if I were God” which I never said, never would say, think or contemplate.

Through it all you have not answered the OP’s basic, fundamental question as to why Jesus had to die. It was merely God’s decision.
In order for Christ to resurrect, he had to die first.

Center on the resurrection and innocent blood.

Then you get the "why"
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
5,559
1,418
113
No one answered my question about the LIFE of Jresus ... about what we Preached to US. My question is simple and I hope someone can give me a straighforward answer:

JESUS PREACHED FOR OVER THREE YEARS ... WHEN WE PREACH WE ARE TRYING TO EFFECT CHANGE, NO? IF THIS IS TRUE, THEN THE QUESTION I S THIS:

ARE WE TO FOLLOW JESUS AND WHAT HE SAID .. PREACHED WE ARE TO DO ... THERE IS TOO MUCH TO COPY HERE SO I WILL KEEP IT SIMPLE:

JESUS SAID THESE ARE THE GREATEST COMMANDMENTS UPON WHICH ALL THE REST HANG:
1) LOVE GOD WITH ALL YOU MIND, HEART, SOUL
2) LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF

RE #2: HE TOLD US HOW WE ARE TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS, HELP THE POOR, GIVE, ACCEPT, LOVE, ETC.

i RECEIVED NO ANSWER TO WHAT I THINK IS AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION. DID JESUS MEAN FOR US TO OBEY HIM AND DO COMMANDMENTS ONE AND TWO . AND WHY HAVE I BEEN TOLD THAT HIS PREACHING WAS NOT FOR US, WHOM HE TOLD ARE TO DO IT?

I HONESTLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. I KNOW WE ARE NOT WORKS BASED, BUT HIS COMMAND SAYS TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AND HE GOES INTO GREAT DETAIL ABOUT HOW TO DO THAT. WHY DO WE IGNORE IT? I WAS SIMPLY MOVED ON TO JESUS DEATH AND HIS ATONEMENT. ALL GOOD AND WELL.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT COMMANDMENT ... THE SECOND ONE .... LOVE THY NEIGHBOR ... PUT IT INTO ACTION. DO IT. SH9OW KINDNESS, HELP THE POOR, REACH OUT.

IS THERE ANYONE WHO THINKS WE OUGHT TO OBEY JESUS? OR DO WE IGNORE HIM?
IF WE IGNORE HIS COMMANDMENT TO DO THIS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY, THEN MAYBE WE DONT GO THROUGH THE NARROW GATE.



Some of the main themes that Jesus taught, which Christians later embraced, include:
  • Love God.
  • Love your neighbor as yourself.
  • Forgive others who have wronged you.
  • Love your enemies.
  • Ask God for forgiveness of your sins.
  • Jesus is the Messiah and was given the authority to forgive others.
  • Repentance of sins is essential.
"" IMPORTANT QUESTION. DID JESUS MEAN FOR US TO OBEY HIM AND DO COMMANDMENTS ONE AND TWO . AND WHY HAVE I BEEN TOLD THAT HIS PREACHING WAS NOT FOR US, WHOM HE TOLD ARE TO DO IT?

I HONESTLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. I KNOW WE ARE NOT WORKS BASED, ""

Welcome to the weird world of the "pauline only cult"
They preach against the gospels. They claim Jesus failed at his mission to establish the kingdom with the Jews so the cross was plan B.

It us another lunacy heresy
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
5,559
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Btw
The non Pauline epistles are also just "filler"(to them).... Not to be taken seriously(by them).

The bible soundly defeats their garbage.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
4,671
980
113
IF WE IGNORE HIS COMMANDMENT TO DO THIS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY, THEN MAYBE WE DONT GO THROUGH THE NARROW GATE.


Some of the main themes that Jesus taught, which Christians later embraced, include:
  • Love God.
  • Love your neighbor as yourself.
  • Forgive others who have wronged you.
  • Love your enemies.
  • Ask God for forgiveness of your sins.
  • Jesus is the Messiah and was given the authority to forgive others.
  • Repentance of sins is essential.
...another verse that has come to mind, is this:

[where Paul is praying, and says this, kind of from the perspective of "when we 'get to heaven' so to speak, and are in His presence, finally, this is his prayer for the saints he's addressing (and us, by extension, since we also are a part of "the Church which is His body" too), i.e. at "the day of Christ"]...

"... having been filled with the fruit of righteousness, which is BY MEANS OF Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God." Phil1:11

[I can think of several verses saying basically this same thing]




... all of "our" righteousness is as filthy rags ;)